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Unread 09-25-2009, 09:16 AM   #1
DARKEYES
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Default does it give anyone energy?

Does it give anyone energy? It does to me, or maybe it's just that I haven't been me for so long, and since Suboxene I'm me again. God I have so many questions.

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Unread 09-25-2009, 07:41 PM   #2
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Yeah I totally get energy from my sub. I srarted on monday and I am very surprised by this welcome side eefect. I am an obssesive cleaner so it helps me to carry out my compulsion to clean the house! I am new at this too Darkeyes but anything questions you have just ask!
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Unread 09-26-2009, 06:05 AM   #3
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me too!!!!! my sister asked me "what the heck is wrong with you?" Because I've been cleaning for the past few days, can't stop. I have a Maine Coon cat who weighs 27 pounds (they get real big) and I even gave him a bath and groomed him, because no groomer in the city will take him he's very protective of this family and hates everyone else. No I didn't but a bow in his head, I gave him a cat nip tea bag for being a good boy.


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Unread 09-26-2009, 06:24 AM   #4
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Hi, for people do get an energy burst from Suboxone, many say that it dissipates as they stabilize.

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Unread 10-02-2009, 11:37 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DARKEYES View Post
Does it give anyone energy? It does to me, or maybe it's just that I haven't been me for so long, and since Suboxene I'm me again. God I have so many questions.

DARKEYES
Specially in itial induction remember that it has Naltrexon, wish are at time use to induce withdrawl or to bring people back from an OVER DOSE of heroin etc.

The first day of my induction I had to go home because I felt so dam tire, but the next day it felt like all kind of energy. Remmeber that Bupernorphine (at least for me and I think others) it acts as a fairly good pain kill. Pain does couse fatigue and if it remove I can only assume feels like you have a lot more energy.
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Unread 10-02-2009, 11:58 AM   #6
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Specially in itial induction remember that it has Naltrexon, wish are at time use to induce withdrawl or to bring people back from an OVER DOSE of heroin etc.

The first day of my induction I had to go home because I felt so dam tire, but the next day it felt like all kind of energy. Remmeber that Bupernorphine (at least for me and I think others) it acts as a fairly good pain kill. Pain does couse fatigue and if it remove I can only assume feels like you have a lot more energy.
Hi Carlos, the medication in Suboxone is NALOXONE (narcan). Not Naltrexone.
It is clinically insignificant because it has very poor bioavailability both sublingually and in the GI tract. It become active when it is injected. THAT is when it can cause a rapid onset of precipitated withdrawals.

Otherwise it has no bearing on an induction or any other time. Unless some is hypersensitive, and even then it would not cause withdrawals, but an allergic-type reaction such as itching.

http://naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#64

Nancy

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Unread 10-02-2009, 04:19 PM   #7
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The naloxone in suboxone barely gets absorbed by the body. The only way the naloxone in suboxone will cause a side effect is if your allergic to it then you can switch to subutex.
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Unread 10-29-2009, 08:26 AM   #8
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if u get burst of energy like i did ur high it kinna irritatesme when people act all happy and act like there not high off their ass u know u r so dont lie it lasted for me for acouple of mounths on the same dose i even went down 4mg twice and could feel the energy and all the good stuff im like how am i not building a tolerence trust me u do and it sucks cuz it will go away but u wont notice it to much unless ur thinking i need to be high its a powerfull mind trip so dont get wraped up in ohh i get high legaly itsfor treatment nothin else if ur not seriuse about ur treatment ur going to regreat it
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Unread 10-31-2009, 07:40 PM   #9
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if u get burst of energy like i did ur high it kinna irritatesme when people act all happy and act like there not high off their ass u know u r so dont lie it lasted for me for acouple of mounths on the same dose i even went down 4mg twice and could feel the energy and all the good stuff im like how am i not building a tolerence trust me u do and it sucks cuz it will go away but u wont notice it to much unless ur thinking i need to be high its a powerfull mind trip so dont get wraped up in ohh i get high legaly itsfor treatment nothin else if ur not seriuse about ur treatment ur going to regreat it
Why don't you use capital letters or any punctuations? If you don't know any better please excuse me for bringing it up.
Your very misinformed in your whole post. You can not bilud a tolerance to buprenorphen. Also, if your useing it correctly and pass a naltrexone challenge test you will not get "high" off of it. Research the receptor sites that it attaches to and you will learn of the energy people experience from it.
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Unread 10-31-2009, 10:52 PM   #10
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Do you think maybe the 'energy' you are feeling could just be that you are not all doped up and being dragged down from the dope?? And your body is not trying to fight off withdrawals and cravings so your 'energy' is going towards productivness?? Makes sense to me. You can NOT build a tolerance to suboxone, you actually need less as recovery goes on. The naloxone (narcan) is only active if someone does something as stupid as shooting up otherwise with dissolving sub naloxone really plays no rule. If you go to NAABT website they have alot of information to send to you free of charge. The HereToHelp program from the makers of suboxone is another great program that will give you a personal care coach who is informed w/the facts about sub as well as send you out info. I took advantage of those 2 programs and learned alot. You can not get high from sub, sorry. Maybe it's just been so long since you have felt the real you you forgot what you felt like. I don't know, I have heard sub has helped alot w/depression (me included) and maybe that's the 'energy'. ***BadBambino-where can I find the naloxone challenge test? Thanks!
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Unread 10-31-2009, 10:54 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lacyalbrent198 View Post
if u get burst of energy like i did ur high it kinna irritatesme when people act all happy and act like there not high off their ass u know u r so dont lie it lasted for me for acouple of mounths on the same dose i even went down 4mg twice and could feel the energy and all the good stuff im like how am i not building a tolerence trust me u do and it sucks cuz it will go away but u wont notice it to much unless ur thinking i need to be high its a powerfull mind trip so dont get wraped up in ohh i get high legaly itsfor treatment nothin else if ur not seriuse about ur treatment ur going to regreat it

I would strongly suggest that you educate yourself better on this medication and educate yourself on the different reasons behind the various sensations before you make such misleading blanket statements as you have.

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Unread 11-01-2009, 06:16 AM   #12
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***BadBambino-where can I find the naloxone challenge test? Thanks!
Hi JDK613, A naltrexone challenge test:

http://www.cks.nhs.uk/print_preview?...ype=structured

Naloxone challenge test:
• Check that a recent urine test or oral fluid test is negative for opioids.
• Check that the person is not experiencing any withdrawal symptoms or signs.
• Give naloxone 200 micrograms intravenously.
• If after 30 seconds no adverse reactions occur a further intravenous dose of 600 micrograms of naloxone may be given.
• Observe the person continuously for 30 minutes for withdrawal symptoms.
• If symptoms of withdrawal occur then naltrexone must not be given.
• If any doubt exists that the person is opioid free then the naloxone challenge may be repeated with a dosage of 1.6 mg.
• If the person does not experience any withdrawal symptoms after a few hours, give naltrexone at a starting dose of 25 mg.
• If there are no symptoms of withdrawal then the usual maintenance dose is 50 mg per day may be started the next day.
• Naloxone may also be given as a challenge at a dose of 400 micrograms of naloxone intramuscularly or subcutaneously.
• Some experts recommend a challenge using 25 mg of naltrexone instead of naloxone with supervision for 2 hours afterwards.



In short, naltrexone will throw someone taking opioids into precipitated withdrawals. And this will confirm whether or not they have taken any recently.

I'm not sure the point he's trying to make with it though.

Hope that helps.

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Unread 11-01-2009, 09:35 AM   #13
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Thanks Nancy I was curious I'm not sure of the point either, especially since reading about the challenge
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Unread 03-19-2010, 12:34 AM   #14
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some people do get high from suboxone. people buy it off the street and enjoy the increased energy they get. and i can kind of understand why one would think you build a tolerance for it, because over time, i didn't feel good from it (increased energy) like i did when i first started. so i just stopped taking it. and i don't understand what the big deal is with stopping, people seem to think they need to lower it by 1 mg and stay on it for years? everyone is different, and i respect that, it's just totally different from my experience
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Unread 03-19-2010, 01:49 PM   #15
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Someone who is opioid naive (meaning they don't have experience taking opioid medications) will develop tolerance and physical dependence to buprenorphine. However the level of tolerance is limited by the ceiling effect of buprenorphine. This level of physical dependence from bupe alone is minimal and some people can taper quickly.

The tolerance limit due to the ceiling effect is usually far below the levels people who have become addicted already have. So the bupe doesn't add to the tolerance or make it any worse or any harder to get off of it. The bupe simply maintains some of the existing physical dependence allowing the patient to make the long-term changes in their life without cravings and withdrawal.

The withdrawal symptoms addicted people have that cause them to relapse even after weeks of abstinence, are caused by a different set of brain adaptations than the ones caused by the tolerance/ physical dependence of an opioid naive person taking buprenorphine. These brain changes are reversed by making positive changes in the patients life and gaining experience dealing with life without misusing opioids. Once these long-term brain changes are reversed to the extent possible and the patient has developed coping mechanisms for what can't be reversed a slow taper off of the bupe resolves the limited physical dependence maintained by the bupe.

Where some people go wrong is they don't do the necessary work to reverse the brain changes caused by years of addiction, then when they taper off the bupe, symptoms of these brain changes reemerge and they have a tough time as some withdrawal symptoms and cravings return and persist.

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Unread 03-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #16
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Thanks, Tim....succinctly put. I wish that all the docs who prescribe ORT meds were of the same mind. I have been following a person's progress who is on their second month of treatment. This individual's doc is already suggesting that they try skipping doses and pushing them to start considering tapering off.
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Unread 03-19-2010, 08:36 PM   #17
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Tim,

Who, exactly, would qualify as an "opioid naive person"?

How many opiates would they need to take? I know for me, I was addicted to Vicodin, and I took Percosets. I definatly became tolerant to them, and took them to "feel normal". I tried Oxycotton once. I'm sure if I had contacts whom I could have gotten them from, I would have done them more often.

And, even when I took Vicodin, I never took like 30 a day or anything.

Would I be considered an opiate naive person?

Also, I don't understand what is being said above. What are the differences for opiate naive people?

Other than not taking Vicodin anymore, I don't need to make any changes in my life. Since I am not making any changes, would this mean that I would have a harder time getting off of Sub if I wanted to?

A lot of questions, I know. But, I need to understand. I have a chemical imbalance and Sub allows me to feel normal, and not depressed, in addition to preventing cravings and withdrawal. I don't ever plan on going off of it. But, who knows? Someday I may have to due to circumstances beyond my control, and, I am just wondering if I would be more or less likely to have more trouble.
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Unread 03-19-2010, 10:32 PM   #18
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Wow. something must be wrong with me then. I only felt "high" the first 2 days I started taking it. Now it is 5 years later and I would give anything not to be on these Subs. The sad and destructive thing is, I don't get them from a doctor. I get them "off the streets" just like I did when I was buying heroin and oxys. I hate this lifestyle and I want out! I hope that finding a doc and using this resource helps me go back to where I want to be. Good luck to all of you.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 11:48 AM   #19
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Wow. something must be wrong with me then. I only felt "high" the first 2 days I started taking it. Now it is 5 years later and I would give anything not to be on these Subs. The sad and destructive thing is, I don't get them from a doctor. I get them "off the streets" just like I did when I was buying heroin and oxys. I hate this lifestyle and I want out! I hope that finding a doc and using this resource helps me go back to where I want to be. Good luck to all of you.
Hi Shelly and welcome to the site. The medication is only a small part of addiction treatment. That’s because healing from an addictive disorder involves reversing brain adaptations caused by years of addiction. The medication only suppressed cravings and withdrawal, it doesn’t do much to change the brain back. That is accomplished through changes in behavior, environment, and thinking. A doctor, counselor and peer support can help you organize your treatment and begin to systematically make the positive changes in your life that will translate to sustained addiction remission and hopefully help you get to the medication-free phase of treatment. Here are the phases of treatment. The Suboxone HereToHelp program (866-956-9204) is a free service (well, included in the cost of Suboxone) that can help you organize your recover so that you go about it in an efficient way. Also read what you can from the literature page of NAABT to learn as much as you can about addiction and the treatment. Welcome!
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Unread 03-20-2010, 12:00 PM   #20
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Tim,

Who, exactly, would qualify as an "opioid naive person"?

How many opiates would they need to take? I know for me, I was addicted to Vicodin, and I took Percosets. I definatly became tolerant to them, and took them to "feel normal". I tried Oxycotton once. I'm sure if I had contacts whom I could have gotten them from, I would have done them more often.

And, even when I took Vicodin, I never took like 30 a day or anything.

Would I be considered an opiate naive person?

Also, I don't understand what is being said above. What are the differences for opiate naive people?

Other than not taking Vicodin anymore, I don't need to make any changes in my life. Since I am not making any changes, would this mean that I would have a harder time getting off of Sub if I wanted to?

A lot of questions, I know. But, I need to understand. I have a chemical imbalance and Sub allows me to feel normal, and not depressed, in addition to preventing cravings and withdrawal. I don't ever plan on going off of it. But, who knows? Someday I may have to due to circumstances beyond my control, and, I am just wondering if I would be more or less likely to have more trouble.
Sorry for my long answer but it’s a complicated answer.

An opioid naive person would be someone who has never used opioid medication or someone who has abstained from all opioid medications for so long that they have absolutely no tolerance to the opioid effects. They experience opioids differently from someone who has developed a tolerance.

Once you began to need more opioids for the same effect, it indicates the development of tolerance. Once the tolerance reached the point that you need some opioids to feel normal, you have become psychically dependent. Physical dependence is the level of tolerance at which point the body can’t compensate with natural opioids (like endorphins) in the absence of the opioids. Both physical dependence and tolerance are normal, expected, not addiction and not reason for treatment, and happens to everyone who takes large amount of opioids for more than a few weeks. People who are only physically dependent would have withdrawal if they stopped but don’t run out of medication before the end of their prescription, they don’t see multiple doctors for the same medication, they don’t buy off the streets, or use despite harm. In addiction their drug intake doesn’t affect their work or family. People who are only physically dependent people don’t need buprenorphine treatment, or any addiction treatment. Physical dependence is resolved with a slow taper off of the medication. This is what usually happens with most people who need high dose opioids for a chronic or long-term pain condition.

People who become addicted have a whole different set of symptoms (in addition to that of physical dependence) which includes, loss of control over drug use, drug use negatively affects their lives, they have compulsive use, and they use despite harm and have unnaturally strong cravings for the drug (not simply to relieve withdrawal but for the drug itself). Addiction, involves different parts of the brain which cannot be changed back by simply tapering off the medication. These brain changes cause symptoms like, lethargy, depression, hypersentivity to pain and stress, cravings and other mild withdrawal symptoms. Healing from addiction involves changing your life so you forcibly recondition and rewire your brain from an addicted brain to a non-addicted brain. This is accomplished through therapy, counseling, peer support, and making changes in your life and it can take a long time. Buprenorphine simply allows someone to do all of this without the distraction of cravings and withdrawal.

Once buprenorphine patients have completed the addiction treatment, they still have the physical dependence that has been partially maintained by the bupe. This is resolved with a slow taper. If someone tapers off of the bupe before the brain changes of addiction are corrected, those symptoms will return. We see this when someone takes bupe for a short period and tapers off then eventually succumbs to the withdrawal and relapses. Compare that to patient that have been in treatment for years, made changes in their life and slowly tapered off of bupe, they experience less withdrawal and have a lower risk of relapse.

Now if you had co-occurring clinical depression, the bupe might suppress the symptoms while on it and prevent you from tapering off completely. If so, finding a doctor to treat the depression could be the way to completely taper off of the bupe. However depression is also a symptom of the brain changes caused by addiction and differentiating between the causes would be tough. That’s why it is important to systematically make the positive changes in your life and do the work to recondition your brain back into a non-addicted brain. You may find that the depression goes away and you may reach a point where you don’t require any medication for it at all.

So in your case MicheleJ, you need to determine “Is the depression a symptom of the addiction disorder, or is it a separate condition?” A doctor might ask you “Were you diagnosed with depression before starting opioids? Is there a history of depression in your family?” to help you determine this. So if you were addicted you will need to eliminate that possible source of depression first by making the changes discussed then go from there. Hope this helps.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 02:11 PM   #21
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Thank you so much Tim for answering my questions. I do understand your answer, and I have more questions.

I was definately addicted, in addition to physically dependant. If I didn't have any Vicodin I craved it, not only to alleviate withdrawal. I went to multiple doctors, had medical procedures done that I didn't need, had dental procedures that werent needed, begged my supplier for them all of the time, went to ER's, stole from family members, etc... I know I was addicted as well as physically dependant.

I was an alcoholic for about twenty years, and then I stopped drinking and repaired my life, and had not drank for three years when I discovered Vicodin. Which, was because someone offered them to me. I didn't even like them at first, and actually gave them back!! But, I realized that the Vicodin made me feel so much better, and more productive. It started slowly, but, eventually I bacame addicted.

But, there was nothing that needed "fixing" when I started Vicodin, and, right now there is also nothing that needs fixing. I have a great relationship with my son and family, a great job, and all in all, I am happy now. I am financially secure, have a car, apartmentt, etc.... Other than stopping Vicodin, and all of that crazy behavior associated with it, there is nothing that I have changed, or need to, IMO.

I never really felt "normal" my entire life. But, now that I am on Sub. I do feel normal, and the best I ever have in my entire life, and I just don't see the point in ever changing this.

I do understand that trying other medictions for depression is an option, but, I don't want to. If it isn't broke, it does not need fixing. I have had no problems with Sub either, I have no cravings for either Vicodin or alcohol, or any urges to "escape" using chemicals. Do you know what I mean? Sub really is a fix all.

I am lucky now that my doctor understands. I happen to have a very good doctor who agrees that Sub is good for depression, as well as addiction. I use it for both.

But, what about when I go to a new doctor when mine retires, which I beleive will be within in a few years, is it possible to find another doctor who will allow me to be on Sub long term for maintenance? Am I better off not mentioning the depression, since it is an off label use?

Do you think that I am on Sub for the wrong reasons? Really, it allows me to live a normal life, and a good quality of life, for the first time in my life. I am 40 years old. I just never want to go back to the way it was before I found Sub.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 03:21 PM   #22
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I never really felt "normal" my entire life...
I think that may indicate that the depression preexisted any opioid misuse. You may have already read it but here's link to Dr. Gracer's paper on depression he once wrote for the NAABT newsletter. http://www.naabt.org/documents/The_B...Depression.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicheleJ View Post
...Do you think that I am on Sub for the wrong reasons?...
IMO- medications are about restoring quality of life and I see nothing wrong with continuing a treatment that is helping you. As far as finding a doctor who would treat you in the future, I don't know, there is still a quite a bit of stigma around opioids. All you can do now is fight to reduce the stigma and hope that by the time you need to cross that bridge attitudes will catch up with science.

It sounds like you've fixed everything that was destroyed by the addiction, so if you did have to taper you wouldn't suffer the long-term symptoms experienced by those who haven't reconditioned themselves. Using the lowest dose that still suppresses symptoms, will prevent you from taking more than needed and from maintaining any unneeded tolerance.

Congratulations!
Tim
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Unread 03-20-2010, 08:55 PM   #23
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Thanks Tim. I agree, of course, that this medication is certainly not hurting anything. I just have a feeling if I was forced to taper and eventually go off of this medication that I would again have that feeling of wanting to "jump out of my skin", and crave Vicodin, or other opiates. So, I guess that I need to tell any future doctors, if they are hesitant, that I still need to work on "fixing things" if I want to remain on Sub. if they don't believe in indefinate use of it. Unless the stigma goes away. But, unfortunately, I doubt that will happen.

Even when I go to get my Sub prescription every month, I can see that I am treated "differently". They will say things like "I don't know if we have that", and then they tell me "It's going to be a while", in a real sarcastic voice. Then I see other customers come in, and they are very friendly with them, and they even smile at them!

I know you and Nancy hear it all of the time, but, thank you so very much for being such an advocate for all of us Sub patients.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:02 PM   #24
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I believe I have read that article before, but, I just read it again. It wasn't always on the naabt website, was it?

What I read in the first paragraph, Patients with opiate addiction, who are treated with buprenorphine, often ask why the buprenorphine eliminates their depression as well. Many of these people have never felt better in their lives since starting this drug." That's me!

Is what you were saying above, and what he said in the article, that Sub may actually help cure my depression, by re-wiring things in my brain, and that I could go off it and I wouln't have that awful wanting to "jump out of my skin" feeling?

Or, is it saying that I may need to always remain on at least a very small dose in order to remain feeling "nomral"? I wasn't real clear on that because at the bottom of the article it also talks about people who were on Sub for a while having "complete recovery".

One thing I am concerned about is that I had already fixed the things that were damaged by my alcohol addiction and I still got addicted to Vicodin. So, why would it be any different now if I were to go off of Sub? Nothing has changed, if anything, things in my life are only much, much better now than when I began taking Vicodin.

Thanks again Tim!
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:20 PM   #25
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One more thing, I just saw that you replied to someone else in another thread that many doctors "welcome patients who are stable on Sub."

Why, then, do you think that I may have trouble finding another doctor when mine retires? Is it because of using Sub for depression? Or because I want to remain on it indefinately?
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:28 PM   #26
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One more thing, I just saw that you replied to someone else in another thread that many doctors "welcome patients who are stable on Sub."

Why, then, do you think that I may have trouble finding another doctor when mine retires? Is it because of using Sub for depression? Or because I want to remain on it indefinately?

using Sub for depression. Since its only indicated for opioid addiction, doctors will be a little more reluctant to prescribe it for pain or depression.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:36 PM   #27
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I believe I have read that article before, but, I just read it again. It wasn't always on the naabt website, was it?

What I read in the first paragraph, Patients with opiate addiction, who are treated with buprenorphine, often ask why the buprenorphine eliminates their depression as well. Many of these people have never felt better in their lives since starting this drug." That's me!

Is what you were saying above, and what he said in the article, that Sub may actually help cure my depression, by re-wiring things in my brain, and that I could go off it and I wouln't have that awful wanting to "jump out of my skin" feeling?

Or, is it saying that I may need to always remain on at least a very small dose in order to remain feeling "nomral"? I wasn't real clear on that because at the bottom of the article it also talks about people who were on Sub for a while having "complete recovery".

One thing I am concerned about is that I had already fixed the things that were damaged by my alcohol addiction and I still got addicted to Vicodin. So, why would it be any different now if I were to go off of Sub? Nothing has changed, if anything, things in my life are only much, much better now than when I began taking Vicodin.

Thanks again Tim!
I understood it to mean that the medication would compensate, but only while taking it. I don't think it meant a permanent correction of the brain.
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Unread 03-20-2010, 09:50 PM   #28
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Thanks Tim. Now I know that when I go to a new doctor when the time comes, that I must tell him/her that I am taking it for addiction only, and that I still have some work to do fixing things.

I just don't see the point of going to meetings and counseling and all of that. I truly do not need any of that. And, if they think I am taking it for addiction only, they may also expect me to stop eventually. I guess I will have to keep looking until I find the right doctor for me. I am so spoiled now because my current doctor is so wonderful. If I find one half as good as he is, I will be happy!

This is very important information for me to know though, information that may allow me to remain on Sub as opposed to not being able to, by knowing what I have to tell a doctor when the time comes.

It's a shame that I can not tell the whole truth because of the stigma. And that I may even have to LIE. That's such a shame, and it makes me sick. But, this is one lie that is for the right reason, and I will not feel bad. It makes me angry though that people are so closed minded and opinionated about Sub treatment.

Again, thank you so very much Tim.
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Unread 03-23-2010, 10:40 PM   #29
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I feel exactly the same way Michelle, can completely 100% relate! I am almost positive that if I was forced to taper off of sub right now that those same feelings & cravings would return for me as well. I feel like Sub also made me feel better depression wise, I've always been depressed, as long as I can remember anyway. At least for now I'm thankful that I have a great doctor who understands that I need to stay on it as long as needed. The unfortunate thing is that I'm afraid every time I call to make an appointment he won't be there anymore since he's fighting to keep his CA Medical License currently. Fingers crossed, he is a great doctor. He truly saved my life! ) Best wishes to you & Thank you Tim for all the above postings, it is great information to know, I may need to pass some of it on to a different doctor if something were to happen with mine.
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Unread 03-25-2010, 02:28 PM   #30
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michellej, I read that you think you dont need meetings and therapy, well I thought the same thing, and I just did the sub, and didnt talk about anything, and I relapsed after 10 months, and now I am on methodone, and I go to 4 meetings a week, which I love, and I know it is helping me. I think I relapsed cause I didnt go to any kind of meetings before, the reason why I am on methodone is because I have to go get it everyday, and the meetings are right there and I go, when I was taking the sub the docter would give me a month supply, and I wouldnt do anything for my addiction, there has to be a reason why I am an addict, and I needed to find out why I used like I did, and not just do nothing about it and just take the sub. Sub is great, but we need to work on all the other stuff. I just wanted to tell you how much better I feel going to meetings. I felt like you before, but now I dont.
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Unread 04-10-2010, 03:36 PM   #31
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Enjoy the energy while it lasts. 90% of the people (including me) who have been on it long term encounter a 180 degree opposite reaction that includes total and complete exhaustion and absolutely no motivation to do anything at all.

I advise you to get off this drug ASAP, no matter what your situation is or was before. I'm telling you, you do not want to be stuck on this drug it is horrible.
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Unread 04-10-2010, 03:44 PM   #32
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Enjoy the energy while it lasts. 90% of the people (including me) who have been on it long term encounter a 180 degree opposite reaction that includes total and complete exhaustion and absolutely no motivation to do anything at all.

I advise you to get off this drug ASAP, no matter what your situation is or was before. I'm telling you, you do not want to be stuck on this drug it is horrible.
Hi JamesContin, I'd have to respectfully ask you where you got your 90% figure. Extreme lethargy is most often a signal that it is time for a patient to reduce his or her dose. After the dose reduction, the patient feels normal again.

I'm sorry to hear that the medication did not work well for you. Not all medications are suited for all people. But for those of whom this medication is working, to advise them to get off no matter their situation is, in my opinion, rather cavalier and irresponsible.

Are you still taking Suboxone?

Nancy
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Unread 04-10-2010, 03:50 PM   #33
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Hi JamesContin, I'd have to respectfully ask you where you got your 90% figure. Extreme lethargy is most often a signal that it is time for a patient to reduce his or her dose. After the dose reduction, the patient feels normal again.

I'm sorry to hear that the medication did not work well for you. Not all medications are suited for all people. But for those of whom this medication is working, to advise them to get off no matter their situation is, in my opinion, rather cavalier and irresponsible.

Are you still taking Suboxone?

Nancy
The 90% are the people I have spoken with personally who have been on sub long term (over a year). About 20 or so people.

Also there are other message boards out there, and there are now more anti bup message boards now than there are pro bup. I am on 8mg/day, tapering slowly from 16mg a day for 4 years.

I have been addicted and gotten off nearly every opiate and this one (bup) is the hardest.

I USE TO BE THE BIGGEST BUPRENORPHINE ADVOCATE BUT NOT ANYMORE.

Here is a doctor that explains it just the way it is. He agrees that buprenorphine is the hardest opiate to get off of, by far.

http://afflictedandaffected.com/inde...d=40:shows2008
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Unread 04-10-2010, 04:06 PM   #34
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The 90% are the people I have spoken with personally who have been on sub long term (over a year). About 20 or so people.

Also there are other message boards out there, and there are now more anti bup message boards now than there are pro bup. I am on 8mg/day, tapering slowly from 16mg a day for 4 years.

I have been addicted and gotten off nearly every opiate and this one (bup) is the hardest.

I USE TO BE THE BIGGEST BUPRENORPHINE ADVOCATE BUT NOT ANYMORE.

Here is a doctor that explains it just the way it is. He agrees that buprenorphine is the hardest opiate to get off of, by far.

http://afflictedandaffected.com/inde...d=40:shows2008
James,
Why are you on buprenorphine? Well itÂ’s probably because you were unable to control your drug use without it. Why is that, after all you were able to taper off and stop before, what happened? Well itÂ’s because unknowingly, your brain has gone through changes burning in pathways and memories associated with addiction. As time goes on and addictive behavior continues these brain changes become more and more ingrained. This makes it harder to stop than the time before, it has nothing to do with the bupe. Even if you never took the bupe, this would be your hardest taper, and the next one will be more difficult yet and so on. The bupe doesnÂ’t add to the brain damage it pauses it allowing you to make changes and in effect rewire your brain so when you do taper off you can remain addiction free without medication.

The lethargy you feel, is probably from too high of a dose of bupe. Although you may have needed 16mgs or 8mgs years ago, your tolerance has decreased while on bupe, so you require less bupe. By staying at too high of a dose you would have the symptoms of too high of a dose one of which is lethargy. So what you are experiencing is exactly what would be expected given your dose and time in treatment.

Tim
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Unread 04-11-2010, 09:58 AM   #35
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James,
Why are you on buprenorphine? Well it’s probably because you were unable to control your drug use without it. Why is that, after all you were able to taper off and stop before, what happened? Well it’s because unknowingly, your brain has gone through changes burning in pathways and memories associated with addiction. As time goes on and addictive behavior continues these brain changes become more and more ingrained. This makes it harder to stop than the time before, it has nothing to do with the bupe. Even if you never took the bupe, this would be your hardest taper, and the next one will be more difficult yet and so on. The bupe doesn’t add to the brain damage it pauses it allowing you to make changes and in effect rewire your brain so when you do taper off you can remain addiction free without medication.

The lethargy you feel, is probably from too high of a dose of bupe. Although you may have needed 16mgs or 8mgs years ago, your tolerance has decreased while on bupe, so you require less bupe. By staying at too high of a dose you would have the symptoms of too high of a dose one of which is lethargy. So what you are experiencing is exactly what would be expected given your dose and time in treatment.

Tim
Tim, that is not why I am on buprenorphine. I was told by my doctor that it was a miracle drug. He simply was clueless at the time, as were 99% of all the doctors prescribing the drug. He said that it would allow me to live my life free of addiction rather than being addicted to oxycontin, which I was at the time. So I switched from one opioid to another (bup is an opioid too, some doctors in the know say the partial agonist property of the drug actually make it worse than full agonists, see my video for explanation), it just so happened that the one I switched to was worse than the original. So now I haven't been able to work in 2 years, suicidal, you name it Tim. And the changes in my brain have not gone unknowingly, I know plenty about the pharmacology of opiates/opioids and their effects on the brain. I will just leave it at that, I don't want a bunch of questions coming my way.

I can honestly say that I would consider cutting off my left arm in order to go back in time and just cold turkey the oxycontin because I got stuck on the subutex and have had a few unsuccessful taper attempts.

And I guess you haven't read about the PAWS caused by long term sub use? Even when you taper down to 0mg slowly and get off the proper way, many (I would say most) people experience crushing lack of motivation, depression, and lethargy for up to 2 years after getting completely off the drug. Its called PAWS Tim.

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Unread 04-11-2010, 10:51 AM   #36
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Tim, that is not why I am on buprenorphine. I was told by my doctor that it was a miracle drug. He simply was clueless at the time, as were 99% of all the doctors prescribing the drug. He said that it would allow me to live my life free of addiction rather than being addicted to oxycontin, which I was at the time. So I switched from one opioid to another (bup is an opioid too, some doctors in the know say the partial agonist property of the drug actually make it worse than full agonists, see my video for explanation), it just so happened that the one I switched to was worse than the original. So now I haven't been able to work in 2 years, suicidal, you name it Tim. And the changes in my brain have not gone unknowingly, I know plenty about the pharmacology of opiates/opioids and their effects on the brain. I will just leave it at that, I don't want a bunch of questions coming my way.

I can honestly say that I would consider cutting off my left arm in order to go back in time and just cold turkey the oxycontin because I got stuck on the subutex and have had a few unsuccessful taper attempts.

And I guess you haven't read about the PAWS caused by long term sub use? Even when you taper down to 0mg slowly and get off the proper way, many (I would say most) people experience crushing lack of motivation, depression, and lethargy for up to 2 years after getting completely off the drug. Its called PAWS Tim.
I’m sorry to hear that your doctor told you it was a miracle drug, it is not. I wish you found the NAABT site before starting as we point this out “…Buprenorphine is not a cure nor a miracle medication, but a new and effective tool in fighting opioid addiction. Medication is only a small part of a comprehensive recovery plan….” The reason we point this out is because if someone expects it to be a miracle drug it can’t possibly meet those expectations and patients become discouraged or feel misled when the drug doesn’t do whatever they expected a miracle drug to do. We emphasize it simply suppresses cravings and withdrawal, blocks other opioids, all which allows the patient to make the positive long-term changes in their lives that will translate to sustained addiction remission.

The video you reference is that of detox doctor. Since addiction has been discovered to be a chronic brain disease, quick detox is the wrong course of treatment, as is any short treatment for any chronic disease and is only effective for a short time. That’s why detox treatments have such a poor success rate. Since many are high profit repeat customer businesses the treatment is still heavily promoted relying on the fact that most people don’t understand addiction and want a quick fix. This is complicated by the fact that they can remember time when they were able to just stop and have withdrawal for 3 days or so and emerge symptom free. What they don’t know is their brains have been slowly changing and that’s why they can no longer do that. This post explains it best:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ighlight=fence
Here’s an excerpt: “…Things have changed since you were able to just stop, have 3 days of withdrawal and be ok. Since that time your brain has gone through slow changes that have hardwired it differently. Parts of your brain that influence your behavior and decision making have been corrupted, this is why addiction is classified as a disease. Now if you stop wait 3 days you will still have symptoms of depression, stress, anxiety and other withdrawal symptoms, not as intense as early withdrawal but constant and draining and eventually most people give in, as they just want to feel normal again. These symptoms are the result of long-term damage to the brain from repeated exposure to not only the substance but the associated behavior and ritual. It’s burned in these patterns as normal and reset your brain so you don’t feel normal without opioids and in some cases even with opioids you can’t get back up to feeling normal….”

You only experience PAWS after taper off of bupe if you A) don’t make any changes or work to recondition yourself during treatment B) taper off too soon. What you don’t know is that the causes of PAWS preexisted your starting buprenorphine treatment and may even be why you couldn't just stop and needed to go on bupe in the first place. The thread above I linked explain this in detail.

PAWS is avoidable and bupe doesn’t contribute to it, but to understand you have to know the difference between physical dependence and addiction, understand the brain changes that cause the symptoms of withdrawal (both acute withdrawal and post acute withdrawal). If you read the post I linked to you’ll be better equipped to make important decisions about the future of your treatment and be better able to avoid costly, possibly deadly mistakes. Here’s a great post about PAWS and bupe with references, written in 2007 but still relevant; http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14991

Hope this helps,
Tim
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Unread 04-11-2010, 02:57 PM   #37
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JamesContin, dude, no wonder you feel like shit. 16mg for almost 4 years? Uh, yeah, that would make anyone feel like not doing anything. I was snorting H for like 20 years. Started 16mg and ended at 0 in a year. Without any problems. Oh, some minor crap at the 0, like jiggly legs and some sleep problems, but it didn't last long. Got clonidine and took that for a few nights. But I did the whole taper thing right. Did you go to counseling or anything these past 4 years? For me sub did what is was suppose to. I kicked H a million times, jumping off sub at .5 was NOTHING compared to kickin' H. NOTHING.

Oh yeah, most of the people I know didn't have problems and because they didn't have problems, they don't post on the internet about them not having problems.

Sounds like you have a crappy doctor too. Which sucks, but you can still get out of the mess you're in by doing the rest of the taper gig right. I'd go to 4. After 4 years on 16, now you're at 8, go to 4. I did 16 to 12 to 8 to 4 then slowed way down. 2 weeks at each .5 drop. Exercised, EVERY DAY, didn't dwell on it and tried to keep positive.

Oh, and I didn't have PAWS. Try it. You got nothing to lose. -Mary
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Unread 04-14-2010, 09:56 PM   #38
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I’m sorry to hear that your doctor told you it was a miracle drug, it is not. I wish you found the NAABT site before starting as we point this out “…Buprenorphine is not a cure nor a miracle medication, but a new and effective tool in fighting opioid addiction. Medication is only a small part of a comprehensive recovery plan….” The reason we point this out is because if someone expects it to be a miracle drug it can’t possibly meet those expectations and patients become discouraged or feel misled when the drug doesn’t do whatever they expected a miracle drug to do. We emphasize it simply suppresses cravings and withdrawal, blocks other opioids, all which allows the patient to make the positive long-term changes in their lives that will translate to sustained addiction remission.

The video you reference is that of detox doctor. Since addiction has been discovered to be a chronic brain disease, quick detox is the wrong course of treatment, as is any short treatment for any chronic disease and is only effective for a short time. That’s why detox treatments have such a poor success rate. Since many are high profit repeat customer businesses the treatment is still heavily promoted relying on the fact that most people don’t understand addiction and want a quick fix. This is complicated by the fact that they can remember time when they were able to just stop and have withdrawal for 3 days or so and emerge symptom free. What they don’t know is their brains have been slowly changing and that’s why they can no longer do that. This post explains it best:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ighlight=fence
Here’s an excerpt: “…Things have changed since you were able to just stop, have 3 days of withdrawal and be ok. Since that time your brain has gone through slow changes that have hardwired it differently. Parts of your brain that influence your behavior and decision making have been corrupted, this is why addiction is classified as a disease. Now if you stop wait 3 days you will still have symptoms of depression, stress, anxiety and other withdrawal symptoms, not as intense as early withdrawal but constant and draining and eventually most people give in, as they just want to feel normal again. These symptoms are the result of long-term damage to the brain from repeated exposure to not only the substance but the associated behavior and ritual. It’s burned in these patterns as normal and reset your brain so you don’t feel normal without opioids and in some cases even with opioids you can’t get back up to feeling normal….”

You only experience PAWS after taper off of bupe if you A) don’t make any changes or work to recondition yourself during treatment B) taper off too soon. What you don’t know is that the causes of PAWS preexisted your starting buprenorphine treatment and may even be why you couldn't just stop and needed to go on bupe in the first place. The thread above I linked explain this in detail.

PAWS is avoidable and bupe doesn’t contribute to it, but to understand you have to know the difference between physical dependence and addiction, understand the brain changes that cause the symptoms of withdrawal (both acute withdrawal and post acute withdrawal). If you read the post I linked to you’ll be better equipped to make important decisions about the future of your treatment and be better able to avoid costly, possibly deadly mistakes. Here’s a great post about PAWS and bupe with references, written in 2007 but still relevant; http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=14991

Hope this helps,
Tim
Tim, I do know the difference between physical dependence and addiction. I have a PharmD and I know a whole lot about this drug from its chemical formula on down. It does cause physical dependence and addiction. Just because you are not out looking for a fix every day doesn't mean you aren't mentally addicted to a drug. Half life has nothing to do with addiction. Longer half life does not help with addiction. In fact it may cause a much harder addiction IN THE LONG RUN. In fact, what you have with methadone and buprenorphine is that long term use produces a worse "addict" than long term use of any shorter acting opiates/opioids.

This drug is great for a short 2-3 week taper but anything longer nowadays is irresponsible on the doctors part bordering on medical malpractice. They all know better now, its just a matter of sheer greed on the doctors part to keep people uneducated and stuck on this drug for a long time now. Its a cash cow and its destroying lives.

Tim, the doctor does not condone a short detox of long term subutex users. He endorses a long term detox of users who have been on subutex long term, which is the only appropriate way to get off the drug. I have spoken with him personally and I think he may even express this in his interview.

Mary I have tried many tapers of subutex, it is the hardest opiate I've ever tried to taper. I HAVE TRIED EXTREMELY SLOW TAPERS OF SUBUTEX AND THEY DID NOT WORK. I have successfully cold turkeyed enormously large, long term daily doses of fentanyl, oxycontin, methadone, and hydromorphone (dilaudid). You name it, I have gotten off long term use by cold turkey, just letting you know that I am not a wimp when it comes to this nor am I a newbie.

Edit: This link below is here in this thread for the 2nd time. I didn't realize I had put it into this thread before (I have no memory now, subutex) so I had to come back and change my response here many times. So below is just a mental fart on my part.

Here is a doctor (linked below) that has finally come forward to explain what other people on the anti bup message boards have been desperately trying to convey for years. He is a responsible doctor and one of the few. Trust me, many more will come forward in time, and this drug will not be classified schedule 3, it will be a schedule 2 like it should be and given out in clinics like methadone.

Listen to this podcast linked below. At around the 10 or 11 minute mark he starts to explain bup and how it is "the hardest drug to get off of". I disagree with him in that it is my personal opinion that long term use of benzos are harder than even methadone and subutex to detox off of.

http://afflictedandaffected.com/inde...d=40:shows2008

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Unread 04-15-2010, 12:53 PM   #39
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James,
I really wish you had an open mind and were willing to learn about addiction more, because you are making predictable mistakes which are causing you misery.


Quote:
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...Just because you are not out looking for a fix every day doesn't mean you aren't mentally addicted to a drug….
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Tim, I do know the difference between physical dependence and addiction
I don’t think you do….because if you did you’d know..

Addiction is an incontrollable compulsion, inability to control drug use, use despite harm and craving. NONE of these things characterize someone stable on buprenorphine. Most patients who are stable on buprenorphine don’t run out of their medication, they don’t seek more of they don’t even crave it in fact some forget to take it, so no they are NOT addicted.


Over 1,000,000 people have been prescribed bupe for addiction and only about 200,000 are on it now. What do you think happened to the other 800,000? According to you they should still be on it.

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This drug is great for a short 2-3 week taper but anything longer nowadays is irresponsible on the doctors part bordering on medical malpractice.
That’s completely false and opposite of the truth Here a study to prove it:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24184

A short treatment like this would only work for someone who is only physically dependent, if an addicted person did a short detox they would have PAWS. Of course if they were only physically dependent they wouldn’t need it because they would be able to simply taper off the opioid they are on like 90% of people who are prescribe opioids for pain do.

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Longer half life does not help with addiction.
The longer duration of action and the slower onset make the addiction liability much less than with fast acting opioids like hydrocondone. This link explains why
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../delivery.html

If bupe is so bad, why not switch to another opioid and let someone else fill the slot you are taking up.

Tim
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Unread 04-15-2010, 01:24 PM   #40
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James,
I listened to the podcast and I am sorry that a doctor has this level of misunderstanding. There is NO evidence that supports his opinions. He also doesnÂ’t appear to know or believe that addiction is a chronic brain disease, he seems to think that once someone is detoxed the addiction is gone. There was no mention or acknowledgement of the true cause of addiction namely long-term brain changes. How can he effectively treat someone for addiction if he doesnÂ’t know the source? IÂ’m glad you linked to this because it really shows me how much of a challenge we have getting accurate information out.
Tim
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Unread 04-17-2010, 10:28 AM   #41
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James,


Over 1,000,000 people have been prescribed bupe for addiction and only about 200,000 are on it now. What do you think happened to the other 800,000? According to you they should still be on it.
Tim

They're probably out getting high because they couldn't handle the Sub withdrawals.

What are you trying to imply, Tim, that these 800,000 people have tapered off Sub and are all clean and sober now????

Come on.
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Unread 04-22-2010, 06:36 AM   #42
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some people do get high from suboxone. people buy it off the street and enjoy the increased energy they get. and i can kind of understand why one would think you build a tolerance for it, because over time, i didn't feel good from it (increased energy) like i did when i first started. so i just stopped taking it. and i don't understand what the big deal is with stopping, people seem to think they need to lower it by 1 mg and stay on it for years? everyone is different, and i respect that, it's just totally different from my experience
Hey faithheals, when you stopped taking sub were you able to sleep right away?
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Unread 04-22-2010, 06:09 PM   #43
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Tim there are 2 entire message boards that have thousands of THREADS in the buprenorphine sections with people who agree with the doctor (1 of the sites was actually formed for the sole purpose of giving buprenorphine victims a place to share their horrors). I myself have experienced EXACTLY what the doctor describes in the podcast, so here I am, a pharmD who agrees with the doctor.

Tim to understand the difference between physical addiction to a drug vs addiction (to me) is to understand that 2+2=4. Its not a hard concept to grasp.

So you say that people on bup do not fit the addiction profile? Does that mean that when I started snorting the bup and went to the doctor asking him to up my dosage by twice what it was at the time, I was not then addicted to the drug buprenorphine? Tim, when the doctor approved my rise from 16mg per day to 32mg per day, and I started to snort between 24 and 32mg of bup every day after being on 16mg taken under the tongue for over 2 years, does this not fit the profile of an addict? YES IT DOES.

Tim, just because most people are given suboxone instead of subutex, thus not allowing them to abuse it by insufflating (snorting) or injecting it, that doesn't mean that the drug buprenorphine is a drug you cannot become mentally addicted to. It simply means that most people on bup are not given the chance to abuse it because they are given suboxone instead of subutex. Tim when the drug buprenorphine TURNED ON ME and started causing depression, suicidal thoughts, and an inability to work, and I started looking for ways to get more bup and abuse it (and when I found ways to abuse it, it made me feel high).........are you telling me that at this point I was not addicted to buprenorphine and showing the tell tale signs that you yourself described above as symptoms of addiction?

Tim, maybe it is you who needs to get a better understanding of this drug of abuse. The only way the doctors and pharmacists can keep people from abusing buprenorphine is to put naloxone in it. The drug buprenorphine itself is not sufficient alone to keep people from becoming addicted and abusing it. And now that the only generic available is buprenorphine without naloxone (subutex), there is inevitably going to be an enormous rise in addiction to buprenorphine. Sub junkies will now ask their doctor for the generic and they will get the generic subutex which WILL make you high when you snort it and it WILL make you high when you bang it, even in those who were already on it and built a tolerance equal to no other opiate tolerance known to man. And why is that, even when people get off of bup their tolerance has increased more than with any other opiate? Dr. Scanlan refers to an up-regulation of opiate receptors. I think he is probably right (not just about the up-regulation of opiate receptors but about everything he talks about), just looking at the sheer number of people who look hard enough on the internet to find an outlet to cry out, an outlet that has others there going through the same torture they are going through, and find it (the 2 anti bup boards).

Tim we both know that there is always a time in which the people know the truth before the actual research studies are done and made available to the public. DID YOU KNOW THAT HEROIN WAS INTRODUCED IN AMERICA FIRST BY THE DRUG COMPANY BAYER AS A CURE FOR MORPHINE ADDICTION? And you can bet your last dollar that if the internet was around then, there would be message boards like this one giving research studies done on heroin and how it is far superior to morphine, and guys like you to swear by heroin.

I would guess that in America, over 90% of the studies done so far on bup were done by companies hired by the drug company that originally came out with the drug. Why don't I trust these companies?

I would argue that even those people who are on suboxone and not subutex are still on a drug that causes addiction, they are just not allowed to act upon that addiction because they are given suboxone instead of subutex.

Also I will point out that the drug company who developed this drug hit the lottery when they developed a drug that usually takes years to actually turn on its user. Good for them, I hope they sleep well at night.

Tim the reason why more doctors haven't come out about this is because there isn't the formal research there available YET, just thousands of screaming victims, and Dr. Scanlan's own personal experience with trying to get addicts off of buprenorphine compared to other opiates/opioids. Oh and there is also the money thing. The doctors and drug companies are getting rich off of this drug! Why would they take the time to discredit it? For coming forward with his personal experience and refusing to keep addicts on sub maintenance, I hold Dr. Scanlan in the highest regard. He is a man who deserves every good thing that comes his way. He is one of the few left who actually give a dam.

Would you like the web addresses for the 2 anti-buprenorphine boards? I think you probably already know them and if you have a conscience, it probably has made you start rethinking your strategy here. If I were a betting man, I would bet this has you thinking hard about what you stand for. I think you are a smart guy Tim, I just think you have been tricked (just like I was) by this opioid called buprenorphine and the people PUSHING IT ON THOSE ALREADY PREDISPOSED TO ADDICTION.

P.S. The PAWS that come with a short acting opiate/opioid are far shorter in duration than the PAWS that come with longer acting opioids like methadone and buprenorphine. It is an infinitely better idea to only stay on bup for a couple weeks and endure the shorter PAWS of the shorter acting opiate instead of staying on sub and enduring up to 2 years of PAWS.

Bup should only be used for a very short taper to get off the original drug of abuse. But then the doctors and drug companies would not get rich.

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Unread 04-22-2010, 10:13 PM   #44
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Yup, anyone can choose to find something to use to get high and be addicted to. The purpose of suboxone is to allow those who choose to change their lives and get out of active addiction to be able to. It is quite simple. Can suboxone be abused, of course, anything can be abused if one is so inclined. And, James, if you will excuse me for just being blunt, it sounds like you really want the high that you can get from anything. It is unfortunate that anyone feels they need to be so negative against a medication that has saved many lives. No, suboxone did not "Turn on you", you made the choice to abuse it and not use it as it was intended to. Don't blame suboxone for your failures, blame your own behavior. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but don't try to tell others what they should be doing. Medical research is what it is and so far suboxone leads the rest as far as helping folks live addiction free. Why in the world you would want to come on a suboxone support site to rant is beyond me. You mention the other sites that tell the "horror stories", well, that is just where you belong. Suboxone does what it is supposed to do. When it fails it is because the people have failed in how they used it, or what other things that needed to be fixed were just ignored. I am sorry for your ignorance on how to achieve recovery. The tools are all available and I hope that you will be able to "choose good". Best wishes,

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Unread 04-22-2010, 10:38 PM   #45
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I'm just curious what other form of life saving treatment exsists in the medical profession that Drs only except cash and credit cards for other than suboxone treatment. It may not be criminal but it's highly unethical IMO.

What's more disturbing is a drug manufacturer not making appropriately sized doses available for a drug that is required to be tapered off of. Recvering addicts are required to self medicate while tapering by splitting pills, trying to determine the amount needed to avoid wds while lowering the daily dose is in itself self medicating, not much different than active addiction in that regard. Wouldn't it make more sense for patients to be able to have a 1mg, .5mg and .25mg dose availale to us so we could simply take the medication as instructed as opposed to having to play pharmacist and guesstimate the dose. Just the pyschological benefit of having these doses available would make the tapering process more positive and far less stressful. I believe that is the most pressing issue that should be advocated as far as sub treatment is concerned. I agree it's important to have access to treatment/more Drs that can prescribe. At the same time that will create more patients facing the same difficulties when it's time to come off the medication if nothing is done to further assist in properly lowering their dose. I imagine a class action lawsuit would likely be the only motivator for the manufacturer to make the ethical and responsible changes that are long overdue. JMO
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Unread 05-25-2010, 01:33 PM   #46
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some people do get high from suboxone. people buy it off the street and enjoy the increased energy they get. and i can kind of understand why one would think you build a tolerance for it, because over time, i didn't feel good from it (increased energy) like i did when i first started. so i just stopped taking it. and i don't understand what the big deal is with stopping, people seem to think they need to lower it by 1 mg and stay on it for years? everyone is different, and i respect that, it's just totally different from my experience
Wow!! I sure wish I was one of those people that experienced no withdrawal symptoms from tapering down off of Suboxone! My time of it was a nightmare and I was just tapering off of 4 mgs. (2mgs in the a.m. - 2mgs in the p.m.) I was very surprised and so was my doctor. It took me 4-5 wks to get to feeling like I could walk up steps without my legs falling out from under me and during that last month to 2 mths of tapering off I had dropped 15 lbs just like that!! That was my first experience with Suboxone. I should have went back on it then but I stayed off for a year & a half because I relapsed after going off of it. I'm back on it and excited about what Suboxone can and has done to help me change my life. Despite the time I had with it when I went off of it Suboxone can be life changing. This time around my Dr & I decided I will be on Suboxone for a few years before even considering going off of it.....if then!!
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Unread 05-25-2010, 02:14 PM   #47
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Hi GettingThere, How long were you on Sub the first time? And, why did you want to get off of it? This time you are going to do great! Keep posting and ask alot of questions, I couldnt do it without the knowledge I got from my friends here. Hang in there!!!! Welcome....Linda
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Unread 09-03-2010, 08:03 AM   #48
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I find that if I split my dose up throughout the day...when the time comes for me to take my next dose, I am exhausted!! As soon as I take the subx, I feel revived....my mood changes...I have boundless energy!!!!

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Does it give anyone energy? It does to me, or maybe it's just that I haven't been me for so long, and since Suboxene I'm me again. God I have so many questions.

DARKEYES
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Unread 09-03-2010, 09:55 AM   #49
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This is in response to the "cash cow" part of this thread. I don't see why suboxone Dr.'s are being labeled as greedy, when the Pain Mgt. Drs. are doing worse, by upping the doses regularly, instead of decreasing them like the sub drs do. And my sub doctors office doesn't look like a junkie waiting room like the pain mgt clinic did, nobody is sick in the sub office, complaining about how long it's taking, no one is making drug deals in the parking lot, no one is telling hero stories of how f-ed up they got.
I hated going to pain management, and I love my sub doc. He listens to me, and I believe he actually cares about my recovery. He answers my pages on weekends and holidays, and there's no extra cost for that.
My pain mgt doc just signed pre printed scripts and shoved me out the door. The only time any of them ever stayed longer was to do an "exam" and get a cheap thrill. I have never in my life spoken to any pain management doctor on the phone, even though I tried to countless times.
It makes me sad that someone who was in my shoes could come here, read this, and not get the treatment they need, because of these horror stories and name calling.

JMO.
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Unread 09-04-2010, 08:25 AM   #50
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What's more disturbing is a drug manufacturer not making appropriately sized doses available for a drug that is required to be tapered off of. Recvering addicts are required to self medicate while tapering by splitting pills, trying to determine the amount needed to avoid wds while lowering the daily dose is in itself self medicating, not much different than active addiction in that regard. Wouldn't it make more sense for patients to be able to have a 1mg, .5mg and .25mg dose availale to us so we could simply take the medication as instructed as opposed to having to play pharmacist and guesstimate the dose.
ALL drugs have to be tapered off of, even mild blood pressure meds like inderal. Very few drugs come in small enough doses to be tapered from. Almost all psychiatric drugs have to be tapered by splitting pills, or emptying powder out of capsules. Doctors do not know how to help their patients taper, only how to prescribe. Not all doctors, obviously. There are some very caring people in the medical profession.

I have come off of several meds in the past, I have always tapered on my own. Every time I have asked the doctor first about what I should do, they have always suggested a ridiculously fast taper. Google almost any medication; prozac, seroquel, ativan, whatever. You will find plenty of horror stories, people who come off them too quickly and suffer.

My point is, it's not just suboxone.

I have a very caring doctor who can only accept cash for his sub patients because of the insurance company, not because he is unethical.
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