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Unread 11-30-2010, 05:13 PM   #1
pdubs44
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Default Numbness and jerking...wtf?

Hey I am new to the forum. I am in my 3rd month of Suboxone treatment, 16 mgs a day. Sometimes I sneak a 3rd dose if I am feeling extra off but I hate that because then at the end of the script I have to go 3 or 4 days on 8mgs. But anyway my issues are with major body twitches and jerks first. But after reading this forum for 2 mins I see that is pretty common. Constipation is a big issue but also seems common, along with loss of libido. I am single and used to love the ladies. Last 3 months I have no interest in women. So strange, but lots of Playstation time I will tell you..ha. Tired all the time too...blah blah..

Here is one I have not noticed here in a brief scanning of the forum. Ever since I started taking the sub, the left side of my face (cheek mostly) goes a bit numb and tingles some. Not completely numb but just a odd loss of feeling. Comes and goes. Between this and all the twitching and jerks I was having I was thinking I had MS or something. Anyone have this or something similar? Kinda freaks me out to be honest.
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Unread 11-30-2010, 08:54 PM   #2
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pdubs44~
First, welcome...

When you say you sneak in a third dose sometimes because your "feeling extra off" what exactly is feeling off? Sub is only to help control WD's and cravings. If you are taking the extra dose for anything else, it could be exhibiting addictive behavior. If you are sometimes having and WD or cravings, you should speak with your Sub doctor about a dose adjustment so you don't have to worry about running out or halfing your dose in between refills. Also, if you cut the dose too low between refills, you could have WD's or cravings b/c of suck a big reduction in doses so quickly. Just some food for thought and a few questions.

As far as the numbing goes...do byou take the tablets or the new strips? I have not heard of numbing of the actual face, but I know when I began the strips, I had a few days, maybe a weeks worth, of numbness where I dissolved the strip. That is the only thing I can think of, but if someone else knows something Sub related, they I'm sure will chime in soon. I think it's def something to see a doctor about tho b/c it doesn't sound Sub related to me?!

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Unread 11-30-2010, 09:13 PM   #3
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Pdubs44, Hi and welcome to the best forum on the web. Your post was very interesting to me because I can relate. I too am on 16mg and have been for a year now. I take 4mg 4@day. Most pain patients like myself do it this way. The numbness and jerking has been going on with me since I quit my last opiate. I have numbness in my fingertips and jerking in my hands and sometimes my head. So strange I know. My doctor put me on Gabentin 3@ day. It is actually a medicine for seizures. He did have a name for it but I cant remember it. He didnt sound concerned about it though. But at the beginning it scared the crap out of me....Well, I hope you hang around. Ask alot of questions and read read read.....alot of GREAT material here. Take care SURVIVOR.
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Unread 12-01-2010, 12:23 PM   #4
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First let me say lesson learned, don't ever share too much or people will analyze you to death. Please folks stick to the issue that is questioned.

But LKB it's good to know someone else DOES have these symptoms. From what I see this stuff does crazy things to people and no two people are alike. I have heard people losing all feeling in their limbs as well so not hard to believe I might have a touch of numbness elsewhere and not need to rush to a doctor. I will be sticking around to share tips with people and when it's taper time I will be looking to see how people handle that too, but thanks for asking and good luck.
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Unread 12-01-2010, 12:49 PM   #5
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Hi pdubs44, this is an old thread, but it's about the 'jerks':
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=12654

Brett ended up being treated for Hypnagogic Jerks - a form of sleep paralysis. What probably happened with him is that those were masked by his misuse of opiates and when he stopped taking a lot of opioids and switched to Suboxone, it surfaced.

If you don't mind my saying, by you not taking a consistent dose of Suboxone every day, that can cause some side effects - just because of the fluctuation of blood levels and the long halflife involved. Some people have reported depression, anxiety, general just feeling crappy when they fluctuated their dose; but once stabilized on a consistent daily dose, that went away and they felt fine. Just wanted to throw that out there as maybe it could help with jerks IF the fluctuations are causing underlying anxiety and it presents itself that way.

Hope this is helpful.

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Unread 12-01-2010, 09:45 PM   #6
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To be honest besides the general side affects I mentioned which are not THAT bad I don't feel nearly as awful as some of the people on here claim to. Nothing is different on days I take more or less. Some of the people on here sound miserable on Subs than if they had stayed on opiates. If I was that miserable i would do something else. Subs have done wonders for me and I plan on quitting in the next 6 months. I know easier said than done but I can do it and exercise will help immensely.
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Unread 12-11-2010, 06:49 AM   #7
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Hey I am new to the forum. I am in my 3rd month of Suboxone treatment, 16 mgs a day. Sometimes I sneak a 3rd dose if I am feeling extra off but I hate that because then at the end of the script I have to go 3 or 4 days on 8mgs. But anyway my issues are with major body twitches and jerks first. But after reading this forum for 2 mins I see that is pretty common. Constipation is a big issue but also seems common, along with loss of libido. I am single and used to love the ladies. Last 3 months I have no interest in women. So strange, but lots of Playstation time I will tell you..ha. Tired all the time too...blah blah..

Here is one I have not noticed here in a brief scanning of the forum. Ever since I started taking the sub, the left side of my face (cheek mostly) goes a bit numb and tingles some. Not completely numb but just a odd loss of feeling. Comes and goes. Between this and all the twitching and jerks I was having I was thinking I had MS or something. Anyone have this or something similar? Kinda freaks me out to be honest.
yeh Ive had then when on heroine. But i had that once n the past before i did drags and the doctors put a "Questionable" diagnose of minor MS
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Unread 12-12-2010, 11:55 PM   #8
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I have experienced what you say the whole time Ive been on sub too. Always and only at night though. Every night I wake up with my entire arm, hand or leg completely "dead" no movement and no feeling. A common side affect is weakness in limbs and since it also reduces blood pressure, my Doc said that its the combination that makes you have loss of feeling like that. The jerks I have too, in my legs....every night and he also said that too is from the affect on the muscles....
Hope this helps....its all pretty common but nothing to be worried about according to my Doc! annoying but not dangerous! lol....good luck. Im on 20mg/day, and try & stay on your dose....if sometimes you feel like you need more, then you should have your dose re-evaluated......sometimes means all the time to them....so they will prob up it if you feel that sometimes you need it, because that should not be happening, and don't feel discouraged if your dose has to go up. Everyone's treatment schedule is different, no reason to rush anything....the whole point id for you to be TREATED....so make sure you are getting treated according to what your body & mind needs so you get whats right for you. Keep coming on here though, its great support.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 07:51 AM   #9
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To be honest besides the general side affects I mentioned which are not THAT bad I don't feel nearly as awful as some of the people on here claim to. Nothing is different on days I take more or less. Some of the people on here sound miserable on Subs than if they had stayed on opiates. If I was that miserable i would do something else. Subs have done wonders for me and I plan on quitting in the next 6 months. I know easier said than done but I can do it and exercise will help immensely.
I was the exact same way the first two or three years on sub. In fact I don't think I had any side effects at all, and it actually gave me some energy.

Trust me it won't last. Just like every drug of addiction you take, after a while it stops working. That is why you have to fluctuate your dose, sub is an opioid and its addictive.

For most people the drug turns on them after years of abuse/use (its all the same, sub is an addictive drug). When it turned on me after being on 16mg (no fluctuation in dose) for about 3 years, I started sniffing it. I stopped that a year ago and started trying to taper off. The drug has led me to be suicidal almost on a daily basis and I cant get off it. In fact I am starting to slowly go up on my dose now again. Its just horrible, please get off while you can.

I have no agenda, no reason to lie. I'm just here to warn people and give them my honest experience.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. Subutex turned on me BEFORE I started to sniff it. The reason I started to sniff it was because I was so desperate to alleviate the lethargy and horrible depression.

It probably won't turn on you any time soon, but everyone is different and it probably will turn on you at some time. I was warned just like I am warning you, at the other 2 anti-buprenorphine message boards (yes there are 2 anti-bup message boards and 1 pro-bup message board). I actually argued with them until I thought my hands would fall off from typing.

I told them that not all people would experience this "turning on you syndrome" and asked them how many people would die from overdoses if not for bup. They kept telling me to just wait and I would eat my words. It took a couple years but I ATE MY WORDS.

Now if you ask me, I will tell you that I would almost rather overdose on an opiate than be stuck on this drug from hell called Subutex.
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Unread 12-15-2010, 08:45 AM   #10
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Now if you ask me, I will tell you that I would almost rather overdose on an opiate than be stuck on this drug from hell called Subutex.
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LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. Subutex turned on me BEFORE I started to sniff it. The reason I started to sniff it was because I was so desperate to alleviate the lethargy and horrible depression.


For someone who’s been coming to this site for a long time, you really don’t appear to have learned much. Sorry, I’m not being mean but everything you are complaining about was explained here and steps to avoid it were given. Your misery is avoidable and your choice at this point.

The reason you started feeling lethargic was you were taking too much sub. At first you needed 16mgs (maybe) but as your brain healed your tolerance decrease and needed less sub, that’s why most peoples’ dose goes down, not up, but you didn’t take less sub instead you over-medicated yourself which makes you feel lethargic. All you needed to have done was follow the advice that’s been repeated for years, the correct dose is the lowest dose that still stops cravings and withdrawal.

Speaking of cravings and withdrawal, that’s all sub is for, not depression or to give you energy. When people stop addictive opioids sometimes underlying issues reappear which were covered up by the addiction….like depression. Once revealed, the patients need to address these issues and get proper treatment for them, not expect the sub to be a cure-all then say it turned on you when it didn’t do what it was never supposed to do in the first place.

Instead of treating your co-occurring condition, and lowering your dose as you got better, you decided to abuse your medication, yet somehow it’s the sub’s fault and we, who did it right, are all a bunch of liars with an agenda.

You can keep complaining and blaming, but if you want to get better you need to follow the advice that’s been given here consistently for years. Get on the lowest dose that still stops cravings and withdrawal. Get treatment for any mood disorders….well its all right here in this thread, you can read it if you want, or keep in the dark wondering why the people here are able to succeed. http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=23809

Good luck,

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Unread 12-15-2010, 09:18 AM   #11
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Oh jesus. It's the grim reaper back spreading the joy.

Again:

http://addictionsurvivors.org/vbulle...2&postcount=11

Do yourself a favor and just get over yourself and your whining and get the hell off of it. I can't believe you'd rather OD than 'be stuck' on sub. You're not stuck. You CHOOSE not to do anything about it except moan and bitch and complain. For years. Whatever.

PS Mike, love this: “knowledge is the only thing standing between you and happiness.”
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Unread 12-15-2010, 06:57 PM   #12
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JamesContin does not want to learn anything, ignorance is bliss! If you are that bad off on sub. go to your Dr., get on sao, and be done with it. If I felt like you felt, I would definitely do something about it. You can be helped off of sub. if you want it bad enough. I do understand sub. does not work well for everybody and you are obviously one of them, so take action! Steve
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Unread 12-25-2010, 01:22 PM   #13
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ive been on suboxone for 3 months its doing so well for me but after reading so much on the hell of getting off i want to stop do you think ill have a hard time stopping after 3 months use at 12 mgs a day scared in newjersey
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Unread 12-25-2010, 03:25 PM   #14
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Hello winbig121, Kind of a mixed statement from you, "..its doing so well for me...I want to stop...? Think about the reason you were prescribed suboxone in the first place, the disease of addiction. If you had any other disease and the dr prescribed medication that helped you, you would not think, gee, I need to get off this stuff that is working so well for me. I cannot figure out why folks think this way about the medication suboxone. My daughter was a suboxone patient for over 2 years and tapered off with minimal problems. Be scared of addiction and all the negative things associated with it, but you do not have to fear suboxone. Best wishes,

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Unread 12-25-2010, 09:58 PM   #15
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For me it is not so much the fear of suboxone as it is the fear of the state and doctors just cutting me off. And that all leads to withdrawl.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 04:15 PM   #16
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Yep, I too think about that very often. I've been on Subutex almost 3 years straight and the thought of maybe the medication not being available to me, well lets just say I would be in very bad shape. I never have used herion just pills, but Subutex is basically pharm herion, so withdraw would be pretty bad.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 05:41 PM   #17
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Yep, I too think about that very often. I've been on Subutex almost 3 years straight and the thought of maybe the medication not being available to me, well lets just say I would be in very bad shape. I never have used herion just pills, but Subutex is basically pharm herion, so withdraw would be pretty bad.
really?????????? how so?
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Unread 12-26-2010, 06:40 PM   #18
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Yep, I too think about that very often. I've been on Subutex almost 3 years straight and the thought of maybe the medication not being available to me, well lets just say I would be in very bad shape. I never have used herion just pills, but Subutex is basically pharm herion, so withdraw would be pretty bad.
Hi CSmith826, the withdrawals would depend on many things. The dose the patient stopped at, the work the patient has done while not in active addiction, such as changing people, places, things; behavior modification, learning to live without self-medicating depression, anxiety, or anything that the patient may have self-medicated for etc.

This thread might be of interest - explaining what buprenorphine is - it is not 'pharm heroin'.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=24876

Hope that helps.

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Unread 12-27-2010, 03:18 AM   #19
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I've been on sub about 3 years now and for a long time had that same fear. I wanted off as quickly as possible not because I really thought I could do well off it, but because I was always in fear of losing my insurance or something else happening that would cut off my supply. In other words, the exact same fears that kept me strung out on dope for so long, fear of withdrawal. D'uh! I also work a 12-Step program and finally did some meditation and got the answer that I just needed to let the medication do its thing and stop trying to future-trip, and things have been much better since then. I did reduce my dose slightly (from 16 to 14 mg) and stockpile enough meds that should the worst happen I would have enough to detox. Just not thinking about it all the time makes all the difference in the world. I was glad to read some of the posts here and realize that the side effects that I thought were so strange, like the twitching and intermittant fatigue, were more or less normal.
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Unread 12-27-2010, 03:37 AM   #20
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For me it is not so much the fear of suboxone as it is the fear of the state and doctors just cutting me off. And that all leads to withdrawl.
Another thing I've researched lately that gives me some peace is the new work they've done on detoxing off long-acting meds like methadone and, at least reportedly, sub. There'a at least one place that claims they can switch a person back to a short-acting opiate until the long-acting one is out of the system and then do your typical horrible 3-5 days of traditional short-term detox. Granted that would be a terrible thing, but I got off methadone after 7 years back in the 70's and it was almost 2 years of hell. I really almost killed myself, and did go back on heroin because I couldn't stand it. The worst thing was that it just went on and on and on and never got better. I don't think I could tolerate that again, and some stories of tapering off sub, or at least getting off too quickly, sound similar. So if my only choices were months of painful withdrawal and a few days of hellish kicking that would then be over, I'd probably opt for the latter. But I got on sub not to avoid withdrawal as much as because I just couldn't stay clean after I kicked. Between the chronic physical pain, the cravings, and the emotional pain that I used drugs to numb, there was no way I could keep off them for long. So now I don't have any plans to get off suboxone. Eventually I may have to because when I retire and go on medicare, I'll have to pay for it myself and won't be able to afford it. But that's a ways away and I don't have to worry about it this minute. So I just try to do the other work that recovery requires to move forward and let the sub deal as best it can with the physical pain. I can honestly say that, other than wishing I could get better pain relief than it gives me---and I don't know if anything could stop my pain and still leave me conscious---I haven't had a true opiate craving for months. And that along is a victory for me!
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Unread 12-28-2010, 10:35 AM   #21
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Another thing I've researched lately that gives me some peace is the new work they've done on detoxing off long-acting meds like methadone and, at least reportedly, sub. There'a at least one place that claims they can switch a person back to a short-acting opiate until the long-acting one is out of the system and then do your typical horrible 3-5 days of traditional short-term detox. Granted that would be a terrible thing, but I got off methadone after 7 years back in the 70's and it was almost 2 years of hell. I really almost killed myself, and did go back on heroin because I couldn't stand it. The worst thing was that it just went on and on and on and never got better. I don't think I could tolerate that again, and some stories of tapering off sub, or at least getting off too quickly, sound similar. So if my only choices were months of painful withdrawal and a few days of hellish kicking that would then be over, I'd probably opt for the latter. But I got on sub not to avoid withdrawal as much as because I just couldn't stay clean after I kicked. Between the chronic physical pain, the cravings, and the emotional pain that I used drugs to numb, there was no way I could keep off them for long. So now I don't have any plans to get off suboxone. Eventually I may have to because when I retire and go on medicare, I'll have to pay for it myself and won't be able to afford it. But that's a ways away and I don't have to worry about it this minute. So I just try to do the other work that recovery requires to move forward and let the sub deal as best it can with the physical pain. I can honestly say that, other than wishing I could get better pain relief than it gives me---and I don't know if anything could stop my pain and still leave me conscious---I haven't had a true opiate craving for months. And that along is a victory for me!
Hi Fuzzy bunny,

There are two sets of withdrawal symptoms both with different causes.

Acute withdrawal occurs soon after discontinuing the opioid it is intense and typically lasts 1-3 days for short acting opioids and 3-7 days of slightly less severe withdrawal for long acting opioids. This type of withdrawal is associated with physical dependence (the level of tolerance at which point the body cannot naturally compensate for the absent opioid)

After the acute withdrawal phase, sometimes there is another set of withdrawal symptoms called post (after) acute (intense and sudden) withdrawal syndrome or PAWS, that can last for months, but is less severe than acute withdrawal. This doesn’t always happen because it is a symptom of addiction not physical dependence. People who only take opioids for a short period of time for pain may become physically dependent and have acute withdrawal but since they did not develop addiction would not have the post acute withdrawal. Most people who are addicted now can remember a time when they were only physically dependent and could stop experience short withdrawal and be fine afterwards. Even people with non-substance addictions can experience PAWS this is seen often with gambling addiction.

Brain changes are the cause of both types of withdrawal. The brain changes associated with acute withdrawal is well understood, easily reversed with a slow taper, and not important. The brain changes responsible for PAWS, the ones associated with addiction are the ones that matter because they last so long. While in treatment repairing these brain adaptations will prevent the long-term suffering after taper. But it needs to be a conscious effort because to change that part of brain requires major changes in environment, thinking, routine, and how you react to stress, anxiety, and depression.

Short detoxes for people who still possess the brain adaptations of addiction, will only help with the acute withdrawal and do nothing for more important long-term withdrawal. Expensive rapid detox establishments rely on the public’s ignorance of what addiction is and try to focus people on the less important but more obvious acute withdrawal. This way when patients relapse weeks later, they feel its their fault and return for another detox, and the cycle continues.

There is no reason to suffer through a 3-5 day detox anymore. With a slow taper off of buprenorphine very little withdrawal can be experienced. The lower and slower you taper the less the withdrawal. People who have tapered well below 1mg have reported not even missing work throughout the entire taper.

This paper talks about the different brain adaptations
http://archives.drugabuse.gov/PDF/Pe...s-Neurobio.pdf

This one talks about the distraction of acute withdrawal and why its not important.
http://www.naabt.org/documents/The_E...0Addiction.pdf

Tim
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Unread 01-01-2011, 08:29 PM   #22
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Hey I am new to the forum. I am in my 3rd month of Suboxone treatment, 16 mgs a day. Sometimes I sneak a 3rd dose if I am feeling extra off but I hate that because then at the end of the script I have to go 3 or 4 days on 8mgs. But anyway my issues are with major body twitches and jerks first. But after reading this forum for 2 mins I see that is pretty common. Constipation is a big issue but also seems common, along with loss of libido. I am single and used to love the ladies. Last 3 months I have no interest in women. So strange, but lots of Playstation time I will tell you..ha. Tired all the time too...blah blah..

Here is one I have not noticed here in a brief scanning of the forum. Ever since I started taking the sub, the left side of my face (cheek mostly) goes a bit numb and tingles some. Not completely numb but just a odd loss of feeling. Comes and goes. Between this and all the twitching and jerks I was having I was thinking I had MS or something. Anyone have this or something similar? Kinda freaks me out to be honest.
I have been on bupes for three yrs now,I have had the jerks too. It was the worst while in treatment,but now I only have them when I am either asleep or falling asleep. @ first it really scared me too,and my new boyfriend,it took me awhile to tell him about my past using. Glad to know that I am not the only person having the side effects. As for the numbing,none for me~I take the strips~,but even after an hr after the strips dissolve if I kiss my bf,his mouth will go totally numb,but only for a few mins.
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