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Unread 06-29-2008, 08:14 PM   #1
Winnie
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Default JOINT PAIN FROM SUB?

I am starting to wonder if Sub is causing me joint pain? I am 45, swim regulalrly, am not overweight. I have not had any other accidents or trauma except to my back.

I am having all sorts of aches, even my fingers.

And honestly, I don't think 8 mgs of Sub a day is the greastest pain reliver in the world. I don't care to take more.

Any thoughts...

Thanks in advance,
WINNIE
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Unread 06-29-2008, 08:29 PM   #2
endzonewife
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Hi Winnie. I also noticed that I had a lot of joint pain shortly after I started sub, ecspecially in my fingers. It is at the worst in the am when I get up. It is hard to say if it was something that was going on before sub or if it is just something I wasn't able to feel before cause of all the pain pills. I know I posted about this in the past and so have several others. It's hard to say, but I know that I am sooo much better off on sub that off no matter what. It has saved my life and so many others here. I find that a few ibu help with the pain. Hope this helps a little.
Michelle
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Unread 06-29-2008, 08:56 PM   #3
NancyB
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Hi Winnie, if you're looking to get pain relief from bupe, what most people do is take 1 to 2mg every 4 to 6 hours to take advantage of the analgesic properties.

Some people get good pain relief, others, not so much. It really depends on the person and the type of pain.

Nancy
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Unread 06-29-2008, 09:12 PM   #4
OhioMike
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Winnie,

Some people have claimed that joint pain takes place. In turn, this must be kept in perspective. First, what is so different about Sub from our past DOC? Second, how much did our DOC mask, in terms of pain? We claim that we didn't have these pains before, but, how do we really know? I was taking massive amounts of pain killer, how would I know if something hurt. Please understand, I am "not" Suboxone, but, I think for our own sake of finding proper results and lasting results, we need to examine each issue completely.

I know from personal experience two things took please with me. First my active addiction did mask a great deal of damage and pain. Second, at the high dose range, Suboxone can cause rebound pain. You are not at that high dose range.

For pain relief or a chance of getting pain relief from Suboxone it must be taken in a very different fashion from taking it for addiction. What works for me is the following. I dose with 1mg or less, every 3 - 6 hours and I take Motrin with it, at least 800mg to obtain the anti-inflammatory properties of the Motrin.

Even taking the Subxone in this fashion for pain, will not ensure that it will provide good pain relief for each person. It greatly varies and the degree of relief greatly varies.

Finally, I never discount anything and that includes joint pain in some people, as a result of Suboxone. Though I personally do not see it as the norm, but, the rare happening.

OMike
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Unread 06-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #5
sunsetgirl
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Hi Winnie. I was first on subuxone but my doctor switched me to subutex after I had a big problem with my feet swelling and hurting. I think I am one of the few who has problems with even a teeny bit of naloxone.
However - even on subutex which I am currently now tapering from by 0.2mg per week (current dose 2.6mg) I have bad joint pain in my fingers, feet and my knees. The pain is particularly evident in the mornings or when I have been sitting still for a long time.
I'm quite sure I had no joint pain before. I think it is a "possible" that it's a side effect. I've had all sorts of tests for the joint pain and nothing at all shows up. I also get terrible night sweats and feel very hot and sweaty most of the time during the day. As I am on HRT therapy I feel this could also be a side effect of sub. It's been very good for me in terms of becoming free from my DOC. However - I will be glad now when my taper is finished and I don't have to use it anymore.
Bye for now. SunsetGirl.
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Unread 06-30-2008, 09:26 AM   #6
gotoffmdone
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I have not felt joint pain with Sub but my fingers do seem a bit stiff at times.

When I was taking Methadone I got to where I could not even open the bottles. My hands ached quite a bit. I had to soak them in hot water to get them to close.

Wayne
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Unread 06-30-2008, 11:07 AM   #7
Sub-Zero
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Winnie

I am starting to wonder if Sub is causing me joint pain?
Buprenorphine (active ingredient in sub) is a PAINKILLER. I don't think it is causing any pain. It may not be as effective at reducing pain as your DOC was, so maybe now the pain is more noticeable, but I really doubt it is the cause. Dividing your daily dose into 4x/day helps
Sub
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Unread 06-30-2008, 05:34 PM   #8
kyjobr
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I had extreme joint pain. It was to the point I was tested multiple times for Rheumatoid Arthritis. I couldn't walk for an hour or so in the mornings and would wake up all night long with charlie horse type cramps in my elbows, ankles etc. I know this wasn't a preexisting condition and it's gone now that I'm off the sub. I thought I was going crazy because the dr convinced me it wasn't sub related but I've seen many many postings about it.
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Unread 06-30-2008, 06:50 PM   #9
Mike
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Joint pain is a withdrawal symptom. Sometimes the bupe may not be blocking all of the withdrawal. people with heroin addictions might be withdrawing from the cut too which the bupe won't help.
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Unread 06-30-2008, 09:17 PM   #10
Winnie
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Mike I have been off the Lortab for almost 2 months...it isn't WD. And it is not RA..was tested for that a while back.

It is either the Sub or my pain receptors are still wacky.

I just started 2 days ago, dosing all at once...and this achy breaky feeling has been there all the while. Since it wasn't that effectice for me as a pain reliver, I didn't want the hassle of taking a mid day dose. Make sense...I think I want to get off this. I am already taking alot of IB for the pain.
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Unread 06-30-2008, 10:59 PM   #11
scootergalp
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My whole body hurts every morning. It takes at least a couple hours before things feel loosened up. I Feel like I'm in withdrawels when I wake up everyday.Real tired of the side effects. Gonna start lowering my dose soon.

Scott
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Unread 07-01-2008, 01:27 AM   #12
Fish
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We use to be painless, Like OhioMike indicates, on our Dee oh sees. Once the pain returned, MaryJoe and the Car were gone, (Chapaquitic). Sorry, I get out there sometimes. We forgot how much we were masking the pain before. Once we were off of the opiates, it seems that we have made physiology changes that are screaming for pain relief.
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Unread 07-01-2008, 02:17 AM   #13
angelout
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My fingers are very stiff in the morning, in fact it feels like they are in a cast. I try to move my fingers and do some "hand exercises" before i get out of bed, it normally goes away. I too was tested for RA, and it came back neg:, I have concluded because of the other posts citing the exact same problem, that it may very well be a sub induced issue. For daily pain, I take tylenol and IB/phen. Not sure why but I have been getting lots of weird cramps lately in my arches in legs, I picked up some potassium supplements today. The pharmacist cautioned me not to take too much, it can mess with heart regulation. So, I guess we need to not just focus on the omnipotence of Sub, but to be careful with everything we injest.
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Unread 07-01-2008, 03:43 AM   #14
sunsetgirl
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I think I need to disagree that my DOC was masking any pain. Sometimes I would not take it for a couple of days and I would certainly be in w/d's but never had this joint pain and barely able to move when I first get out of bed in the morning.
Sub is a good drug - there's no doubt in my mind about that. However - I think it like any other drug out there does have definite side effects for some people!! I too have been tested twice for RA and once for lupus whilst on sub and both were negative.
I am 99% certain it's a side effect of the sub - just like me feeling hot all the time and having night sweats are. I've been like this from a couple of weeks after I started taking it.
I realise it's a fantastic tool for getting off opiates - I have NO argument with that but I believe that telling everybody that this pain would have been present before - but being masked by their opiate use is not acknowledging the fact that most drugs do have some side effects for different people. Cheers. SunsetGirl
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Unread 07-01-2008, 03:54 AM   #15
Sunny1
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hmmm, I notice joint pain as well, but not sure what it is. When i was in hydro w/d I definitly had severe joint pain from it. I am sure of that. When I started Sub. I had a noticable amount of joint pain, particularly in my hands, but also in other joints. This got better after about a month on Sub. I never considered that maybe it was some w/d breaking through after starting the Sub. but it makes sense b/c I had a hard time stabilizing and had a lot of w/d symptoms breaking through, that took a long time (compared to most) to get under control.
I also think that I was achy in the joints b/c i was so inactive for the months leading up to starting Sub.

At this point I still have achy joints in my hands and stiffness. Nowhere near as bad as it was initially. Not sure if it will keep getting better and go away or if it's sticking around.
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Unread 07-01-2008, 04:40 AM   #16
OhioMike
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I would caution against ruling Sub out.

I would also equally caution against not expanding to consider all options and to not zero in just on Sub, unless a true educational path leads you there!

IMO for some, Sub is going to play a larger role, for others a very minor role and for others, no role at all. The goal should always be to help each other discover a path to good answers.

OMike
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Unread 07-04-2008, 10:20 PM   #17
jules2200
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I'm replying to this topic because i am experiencing joint pain, and muscular pain too- fingers swollen, stiff, feet hurt, in fact my whole body hurts- like I did a thousand squats, or ran a marathon after never running before- extremely hard to get up in the am. Gets better as the day goes on but it's frustating-'cause I walk every day and do yoga- and it hurts to do yoga- which saddens me. I believe
1. my DOC was not masking this-'cause i was only on opiates for about 4 -5 months- (this time) and wd last time did not feel like this.
2. That it is the sub- maybe just the naloxene in it, wishful thinking maybe, because I have never felt this way before.

Guess I need to call my doctor- but I don't have much faith in him- he sent me out the door with the sub- with th einstrictions on the bottle- 3 8mg tablets 3 times per day- and that was way too much! if it weren't for this forum I would have gone crazy.
For the first month I took about 16-18 mg per day- but realized that was to much- at that time i did not feel this achy pain. Went to 8mg a few weeks ago and started to notice it- now on 4 mg and REALLY notice it. Should I taper off completely? I feel alot better(mentally, but this pain is getting to me)- things are clearer now- even got a transfer to a less stressful job- God answers prayers!
ANyway, glad you guys are here and sorry so long!
Julie
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Unread 07-04-2008, 11:02 PM   #18
Dobeygirl
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I tend to think that stopping the massive amounts of painkillers we were taking HAS to contribute somewhat to the new aches and pains, even if they're just rebound pain...

I remember when I quit hundreds of oxys/day back in 2001, before sub, and the whole year afterwards, I had so many toothaches and other aches and pains. I was masking ALL my feelings with the opiates, both physical and emotional/mental feelings.

Julie, one thing that concerns me about your pain is that it is worse in the morning then gets better. I hope it's the naloxone too, but my hubby had the same problem, and turned out to be polymyalgia rheumatica. Not to scare you, but as soon as we told the doctor 'morning pain and stiffness' he diagnosed it. Hubby's is in remission now, but it is five times more prevalent in women. Treated by prednisone. His first (and only so far) bout lasted about two years...

About tapering off--do you feel you have completed your treatment and can stay off opiates? That is the most important thing, IMO.

Glad YOU'RE here too!
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Unread 07-05-2008, 10:31 AM   #19
gotoffmdone
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I know taking 400mgs of methadone a day wds was not a concern.

My hands were never stiff during the ten years I took Lortab or Percocets.

They became that way after I started on methadone.

I am a firm believer in the notion that the long-acting, fully synthetic(manmade in the lab) opioids are a different animal all togehter. I have no scientific proof of that, just anecdotal evidence based on my personal experiences. I know the acute wd phase from the long-acting opioids can seem to drag on and on.

Wayne
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Unread 07-05-2008, 02:40 PM   #20
jules2200
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Polymyalgia rheumatica? That rings a bell, but only because I worked in a rheumatology office for a while and saw patients with that diagnosis-
I need to see my doctor and find out- think I'm ready to come off- but I want to do it very slowly- things are going well for me now, and I don't want to screw it up!
Many blessings to everyone.
J
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Unread 07-13-2008, 05:54 AM   #21
ironman
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Chalk up another here - and I don't think its from "masking either",
I have the EXACT same symptoms as all above. They come in spurts though. I can go a week without nightsweats and then just when I think I've seen the last of them - BAM! I wake up soaking, having to change the seats etc. Same with the joint pain, especially in the fingers. The cramps/Charlie Horse bit has been few and far in between thankfully but yes, I've had them. Several times I had to get out of my car and walk around because my right leg went into spasms as soon as I put my foot on the gas pedal. The other thing I get from time to time is the front portion of my upper left thigh will go numb and start tingling - probably the most persistant side effect (besides
constipation !) along with trouble urinating and ankles swelling. NVER had thses symptoms until I started Bupe. I have zero doubt these are side effects. On the bright side - I have no appetite to speak of ! That is, I can eat, I just don't get hunger pangs/symptoms and I was one that could never, ever skip or even be late getting my meals.
Its not uncommon now for me to eat at 11pm ! I don't feel any symptoms from not eating so I put it off while I do other things. When I do eat, I have no problems. My entire adult life I would get weak and shakey if I didn't eat lunch by noon - could not wait until 1pm or so as I'd damn near pass out - now, it doesn't phase me ! Go figure...
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Unread 07-13-2008, 05:47 PM   #22
Annie
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Well after reading this thread I'm convinced that joint pain, ESPECIALLY IN THE FINGERS!! is a side-effect of sub. I wrote in another thread that I've increased my dose (was taking it WITH my morning coffee which is a no-no) and my hands are killing me in the morning! I'm a 48 yo athlete and no history of arthritis in the family. So I think from just this thread alone there is enough evidence to conclude (scientist that I am :-D) that sub (maybe higher than needed dose??) does have many side effects.
I'm SO glad to hear this from others. Scott, I also hate the way I feel in the morning and want to lower and finally get off altogether. Annie
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Unread 07-13-2008, 06:01 PM   #23
Sub-Zero
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Don't you think that some pain might appear when you stop taking your painkillers? Bupe is a painkiller itself, it doesn't cause pain. It might not suppress pain as well as the opioids you were on but that doesn't make it a side effect of the drug. If you took Tylenol instead of bupe you would have pain and withdrawal now, does Tylenol cause both? Is withdrawal a side effect of Tylenol? Of course not. What if you hurt yourself or developed a condition while on your painkillers? You wouldn't know about it until you stopped or started bupe. think about it you are saying bupe, a known painkiller, is causing your pain??? Does that make any sense? Stop the bupe and see if your pain goes away, I'll bet it gets worse.
Sub-
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Unread 07-13-2008, 06:26 PM   #24
isabella07
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Hi Annie,

I have to agree with SubZero's explanation.

I had so many aches and pains during my first months on sub, my fingers were so swollen, I could not even get my wedding ring off one morning. I did used to hobble out of bed, literally, and I am a very active person, have to be to chase a 5 year old around, ride bikes, walk etc... but after a few months, I was physically fine, it all went away. I started in the summertime, was not staying hydrated.

I did get checked out by my doctor to be safe, bloodwork was all fine. I think that I used opiates for so long, that my body was just reacting to the change. Also, for the first time in years, I was sleeping all night long, sometimes in one position, which is why I would wake with a numbness in my hands, because I was sleeping so hard ! I think the lower I am getting the better I feel physically and mentally.

As always, talk to your doctor, you never know if your DOC was masking an existing condition. I hope you feel better soon, take care Isa
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Unread 07-13-2008, 06:48 PM   #25
Annie
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Let me clarify what I said. Since so many have said they have joint pain, particularly in the hands, since being on the sub, I believe it is reasonable to think it is a side effect. I didn't have this going on at lower doses of sub.
I had similar symptoms when first starting the sub but they went away. This didn't happen until I increased my dose.
I totally agree that pain can show up when stopping one's doc, but this finger thing isn't one of them.When I'm able to lower my dose I will let you know if the finger pain goes away. Annie
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Unread 07-14-2008, 11:46 AM   #26
Sub-Zero
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Maybe it is the sub, but consider that sub may not suppress all of the withdrawal from your DOC and joint pain is a classic withdrawal symptom. Since some drugs linger it might explain the delayed response. Whatever the cause I hope it goes away and you feel better!!
Sub
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Unread 07-14-2008, 08:16 PM   #27
littlemissbliss
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I have joint pain in my hand too! I thought it was from using a mouse for so long, because it's only in my right hand. Weird that it started only after being on sub though...
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