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Unread 01-12-2015, 04:54 PM   #101
NancyB
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, please, no apologies needed!

Can you get the 5/2.5 Targin to finish your taper with? That might really help because you'll be getting the same amount each dose unlike the variations that have occurred with cutting the larger pills. Plus then you'll know exactly what you're taking instead of subjecting yourself to those variations - especially at the low dose you're taking.

Go as fast or slow according to what your body is telling you. And like Elizabeth said, be kind to yourself.

Nancy
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Unread 01-12-2015, 11:23 PM   #102
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Hi OTB,

I'm sorry you are feeling low today. Your taper from oxy has certainly not been easy. Maybe listen to your doctor and stretch it out a little longer? After all, it's not a race and you are very strong-minded, so WILL do it! He sounds wonderful, if only more people could have that level of compassion and concern from their doctors.

Try not to worry about having done permanent damage. I took oxy for 4 years and since being off suboxone, only think about taking ibuprofen or aspirin when I have pain now. You just set it in your mind that narcotics are not an option and after a while, that's your default. And as you said there are some good prescription NSAIDs too if needed.

I agree that when we have pain and are taking opiates, it's hard to tell the difference between need and want. For me, I think I concentrated on and exaggerated the pain (in my mind and to the doctor) I did have to justify taking more. Not to mention the WD symptoms if I did not take them. When my hands got better, I kept taking them at the same levels for over a year. Finally I realized and acknowledged that they were harming me and my life and got on Suboxone. I took sub for about 4 months and that worked well for me.

Anyway, just want to reiterate: be kind to yourself! You are going to be OK and if it takes a little while longer that is not a bad thing :-).

Feel better,
Elizabeth
Wow, EXACTLY how it went for me, I should have been off the pain meds 6 weeks to 3 months post op, and it was mini withdrawal that I confused with pain that had me going back.

It wasn't until everytime I got a cold or the flu, I noticed if I took an Oxy, it resolved super fast...and I though wait a minute...maybe I haven't been getting colds OR the flu, hmm, lets see if I get a cold the same day I stop the medicine.

Sure enough! I was so oblivious to addiction, I really thought over a few months it was colds, or like a stomach virus bugging me when it was WD. I told my Doc, right away, and he let me try ways to taper, but he never forced a taper of Targin, on me. Super cool! He's smart enough to know you can't make somebody quit, in fact doctors that abruptly stop somebody is just giving them a nudge to buy them illicitly. He let me find my stride, and that confidence in me was super empowering. Great doctor, threat the patient, not the disease, as Patch Adam's once said.

It is easier to get Oxycontin prescriptions in Florida, than it is to open a bank account. I really feel for young kids that are experimenting with things, I tried EVERYTHING in my youth, minus opiods and meth, cause I was a street kid at 14 and I wasn't gonna do some of the demeaning things other street kids did when they couldn't get that stuff.

A month after being on the "streets" I had a job, an apartment, and a savings account, while some of the other kids, had lost their teeth, and had gross "sugar daddy's"

I can only imagine what chances a kid has, on the streets or even on his way to Harvard, if they get messed up with this stuff it will take EVERYTHING away from them. Maybe that will be my penance, or my "treatment" talking to kids about the consequences, I have my street cred, so I'm sure they would listen.
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Unread 01-13-2015, 12:02 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi Oxytarginbup#1, please, no apologies needed!

Can you get the 5/2.5 Targin to finish your taper with? That might really help because you'll be getting the same amount each dose unlike the variations that have occurred with cutting the larger pills. Plus then you'll know exactly what you're taking instead of subjecting yourself to those variations - especially at the low dose you're taking.

Go as fast or slow according to what your body is telling you. And like Elizabeth said, be kind to yourself.

Nancy
Absolutely right Nancy, after talking to my Doc, I pushed it a full 24 hours, and woke up at 5am, but took a clonodine, and guess what? The clonodine now resolved my symptoms, more than a small oxy dose.

This is a major victory! I held strong for 24 hours, and I've only had 5mgs, instead of 10mgs, for today.

I am contemplating not seeing him this week and letting it resolve, but I won't beat myself up if I have to see him later in the weak, he knows what dose I'm on now, and I asked him to put in my file that I personally don't believe I need Oxy, for my pain, so I have burnt my own bridge in terms of taking my file to another doc, in weakness.

It is also only fair that I have him involved because as a doctor, we got me into this together in a way, and he deserves the pleasure of supervising the end of it. Lots of patients forget that their doctor has to fight for them on a quarterly basis to justify the amounts you are taking, to the FDA, AND the drug company, so it's a boon for the doctor to show a patient can go from very high doses a d titrate them off unsupervised, or supervised in an outpatient manner.

Lots of people complain about medical insurance and Doctors cutting them off, and it's really tricky, as addicts we have to take some major responsibility considering the place we put our doctors in when we abuse a prescription, especially the negative effect it DOES have on insurance and doses for people that aren't abusing and NEED it, I almost feel I owe all these people something in terms of resolving this properly so it can be medically classified.

Being part of the solution is way better than being part of the problem.

If more patients empower their doctors a bit during this prosess, they will have real raw data to defend other patients that still need it. I kind of feel he knows I know that, and why he's been so good to me, he knows I've been trying for 6 months to figure this out, and it was really a question of me being really ready to do it. I'm so thankful he gave me the time to dig myself out of the hole I dug for myself.

You said almost 2 weeks ago, that "you got this"...after the first big taper, but now I know I got this! That clonidine is more effective than my present dose is a major indicator I'm physically ready to take on full abstinence, weather it takes a few more days or a couple of weeks, the "fever" has broken...and WOW, if I'd known at the beginning it would take 15 days, I might not have been able to get this far.

I suppose I needed to be "humbled to my core" for this to stick, I'm not religious per say, but there have been about 3 major resolutions in this taper, where symptoms resolved to awaken me to real life. Like mini resurrections, or a firiery Pheonix, rising from the ashes of zombydome, I feel the wonderment of childhood discovery.

That is a priceless feeling, to be able to share the joy of life with my family again. I know the real work starts now, as the body repairs I have to gather that strength and repair my mind.

I NEVER could have come this far without the great support from this site, it has been invaluable, it has kept me honest, and it's amazing how you find yourself sticking to the plan as to not let down the people on the site that have helped you. That is a powerful example of the human condition that anonymous strangers can display such a powerful level of support and humanity, and I see its value AFTER you close the door on addiction, and how helping others can be a great tool in your own continued recovery.

I owe a debt of gratitude to you Nancy, Elizabeth, and especially Glen, in the beginning of all this, and of course all the others that weighed in.

I know it's not over but the harshest of the physical part is smoothing out, no more spontaneous tears of overwhelment, now I'm having "good" moments even 20 hours after a small dose so I have come leaps and bounds, it's now time to take the baby steps and show them the respect they deserve.
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Unread 01-13-2015, 03:55 AM   #104
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I am curious, I've been using small amounts of clonidine, about .0375 micros, a few hours after I take a very small dose of Oxycodone, around 5mgs, to potentiate the 5 mgs, and it's having very remarkable effects, mostly making the 5 mgs, feel stronger but also disguising my WD from the 5 mgs, helping me push my dose out for a longer time period.

I know it is a powerful tool in full WD, but I didn't realize that taken in conjunction it artificially makes the opioid feeling stronger. Is this ever used for say Sub tapers or is its half life too short, and it's strength too weak to help potentiate the Sub.

I seem to learn something new each day about physiology and drug interactions, as I've noticed a lot of people here have done too. I know lots of people use it for straight up WD, and some use it to recreationally potentiate, but why isn't this being used to help people taper, it's the best tool in my tool box right now and I'm amazed how useful it is in lower stage tapering doses.

This is just an observation, as I took my 5 mgs, of Oxycodone, after a 24 hour wait from 10 mgs, of Oxycodone, and it didn't touch me...Until I took .0375 micros of clonidine, and I evened out an hour later.

I can't find a single study of its use in conjunction with Oxy, to diminish opioid use. I'm surprised, it seems like everybody should know about this to help cut doses.
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Unread 01-13-2015, 07:57 AM   #105
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, I really like this line, and it's so true: "Being part of the solution is way better than being part of the problem." And, yes, you got this!

As for Clonidine, most people here take it at night to help with both sleep and RLS. A few who have taken it during the day, quickly switched to nighttime because it really made them tired. I don't know how much they were taking though. Also I recall a few people who had taken it with the bupe, in the beginning of treatment, stopped fairly quickly because, again, it made them very tired. That's just a broad brush swipe of experiences here on the forum over the years. It would be interesting to see how much they were taking or maybe some even had low BP to begin with and that just exacerbated it. Interesting how it's working for you.

I hope some will read your post and chime in with dosing, etc. It is interesting.

Any more earthquakes? I'm in Connecticut and there were a few in the northeastern part of the state the other day. It wasn't felt where I'm at, pretty much in the middle though.

Nancy
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Unread 01-13-2015, 09:41 AM   #106
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, I really like this line, and it's so true: "Being part of the solution is way better than being part of the problem." And, yes, you got this!

As for Clonidine, most people here take it at night to help with both sleep and RLS. A few who have taken it during the day, quickly switched to nighttime because it really made them tired. I don't know how much they were taking though. Also I recall a few people who had taken it with the bupe, in the beginning of treatment, stopped fairly quickly because, again, it made them very tired. That's just a broad brush swipe of experiences here on the forum over the years. It would be interesting to see how much they were taking or maybe some even had low BP to begin with and that just exacerbated it. Interesting how it's working for you.

I hope some will read your post and chime in with dosing, etc. It is interesting.

Any more earthquakes? I'm in Connecticut and there were a few in the northeastern part of the state the other day. It wasn't felt where I'm at, pretty much in the middle though.

Nancy
Yes, thanks Nancy, yes people DO use it, in conjunction with tapers, as I found out, and yes, I won't be taking it in the day anymore, as the head rush standing up is undesirable. It did help though, and I actually feel better right now having the Oxy, and clonidine having worn off.

Yes, that's right, I FEEL BETTER with nothing messing me up, pretty strange. I am feeling less WD, having everything out of me, I should be writhing in pain right now but it's just possible I got down to such a low dose, with so many hours in between, that my body is starting to kind of reject it, the Naloxone, being undesirable feeling.

I'm going to try an OTC cold pill and nothing else tonight, crossing my fingers I don't wake up in a cold sweat, lol.

VERY peculiar!
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Unread 01-14-2015, 01:47 AM   #107
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Today is the turn around, I woke up feeling GOOD, and I even waited out an extra 4 hours ( making it 28 hours from the last 5 mgs) before taking another 5 mgs, so I'm at about 70 hours with an intake of only 15 mgs...I'm REALLY almost took the leap today, but I'm going to do EXACTY what I did this past 2 weeks with the 5 mgs, I'm going to get the 5 mgs Targins, and start cutting them and reduce by 50% every 4 days, with a gradual reduction during the 4 days, it's the only thing that works for me.

I know this sounds almost absurd but I need this structure to make sure I don't fail, and fall back into the downward spiral from "boredom" or " malaise", if I jump now and feel ok in a week, I might talk myself into thinking I know the way to get off now so it's ok to use again.

I think I really do need to taper until its literally a "nothing" dose, but I can say with resolve the absolute worst is over, it took 2 weeks to be able to go a full day without using and still wake up feeling GOOD!

And I just realized I wrote "use" and I will have to work on this mentality as its a one way ticket to relapse, I will use this last part of my taper to remove its influence on how I relate to the world at large, clearly with that bad thinking I still have a lot of work to do.

Phew! What an experience! I feel relatively back to earth at this point.
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Unread 01-14-2015, 05:45 AM   #108
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Ah, I was talking before about ayahuasca, but I found the "proper" one that is being used for drug addiction, it is used for WD, but is also used in an aftercare method...it seems to "shut down" many of the new receptors that you create through long usage of opiates, although I imagine they don't remove them or reverse the damage of creating more of them, it shows a good track record of easing opiate WD, while "shutting down" the over reactive receptors. It is also possible to take low enough doses to minimize the phycotropic effects it has.

It's called Iboga, or Ibogaine:

http://alcoholrehab.com/drug-addicti...ction-therapy/

I wish their was more research on these alternatives, because a treatment that helps "lock the door" on some of your starving opiate receptors seems so much more sensible than long acting partial agonists IMO, I'm sure the average opiod person would tolerate having NO withdrawal, but mild hallucinatory "hand tracers" for 20 hours, to close down some opiate receptors.

Disclaimer: of course nobody should go try this on their own, there are proper Iboga, treatment centers that can handle a 3 day detox for you, and you should be supervised by a medical proffesional, or a tribe elder or shaman, if you happen to be in the wilds of Africa, and are suffering from opiate addiction...In other words, this treatment is hard to find, and self treatment could be VERY dangerous.

I am fully aware that it could be immensely harmful to some people that have psychological issues, but those who are well initiated to hallucinogens, all natural alternatives, should have a choice rather than ANOTHER product from the same company that makes your old pain medication.

It would be so promising to see big Pharma, pay out a tiny fraction to find "natural" products that actually block, close down receptors instead of them just giving is more of Thebian, extracts, to reverse the damage.

Iboga, or Ibogaine, surely isn't for everyone, but I certainly could have handled a 20 hour receptor purge, btw, while it purges it also blocks the WD from the purge, this isn't an accidental plant if it has the properties every opioid dependent person is looking for.

This isn't a magic bullet either, as it has similar psychotropic effects as ayahuasca, and you will relive all your triumphs and failures in life over the 20 hour period, that is the price you have to pay, full awareness of all your personal shortcomings.

I think that's something EVERYBODY should do at one point and time, a forced self inventory.

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Unread 01-14-2015, 06:45 AM   #109
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Oops, a bit irresponsible to post info on Iboga, without providing a more thorough description of its history, dangers, and a strict clinical compliance for its usage, there have been several deaths from abuse of this very controversial plant bark:

This is a good overview, with several links that one could navigate to develop their own somewhat educated opinion:

http://azarius.net/encyclopedia/29/Ibogaine/
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Unread 01-14-2015, 08:17 AM   #110
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Wow, there are 2 major drug companies, and 5 respectable University's that have applied for patents on Iboga, or Ibogaine.

There are many studies that have been done on its pharmacalogical uses in addiction and it has been proven in clinical setting on mice and monkeys to reduce WD, and that when free to use Opioids, Cocaine, Amphetamines, Ethanol, and Nicotine, they just stop going back for it after 20 hours induction of this bizarre tree bark.

It is schedule 1, in the USA, but it isn't even scheduled in Canada, per say, I find this odd, as Canada, is more conservative.

I realize I've posted about this 3 times now, it is more out of absolute shock that there aren't human trials as this seems to be an "underground" treatment for people that have tried SUB, detox centers, and everything else. This is rather scary, as this is an INTENSE mode of treatment.

2 major drug companies and 5 University's have applied for patents for clinical trials, sinse 2005, and there is no yes or no yet? This is VERY strange, the FDA, did classify it as schedule 1 but hasn't come to a patent resolution for 9 years?

Something isn't right here, this stuff is seems super amazing and super dangerous at the same time, I'm only going on and on about this due to my prior intersest in ayahuasca, so I'll make sure this is my last post on the subject, this site seems to have it all broken down to REALLY address what the other 2 links didn't, I really don't want anyone going on the net and I ordering this stuff thinking its a quick fix:

https://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sh...title=Ibogaine

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Unread 01-14-2015, 01:46 PM   #111
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Hi OTB,

Glad you are feeling well and could push out your dose an extra 4 hours! That is great.

Re your previous few posts, the thing about any medicine that curbs withdrawal and cravings is that the pyscho-social component remains very important in the equation. Although it would be amazing to have a medicine that could change us instantly from addicts to "normal," receptor-wise, I still think addictive behavior (especially of many years, like a lot of us) requires additional support. Behavior has to change, and that always requires effort on the part of the addict. Counseling, meetings, reading and forums like this provide structure and support, to help us remove the thinking that got us addicted in the first place. We have to learn to deal with life in a different way than altering our conciousness, or success will be fleeting.

Have a great day and rock on, OTB!
Elizabeth

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Unread 01-14-2015, 08:37 PM   #112
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Glad to hear you are getting closer.

I'm a little under the weather-maybe a slight chest cold with a cough but thought I'd stop in to see how everyone is doing.

Glen
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Unread 01-15-2015, 06:59 AM   #113
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Hi OTB,

Glad you are feeling well and could push out your dose an extra 4 hours! That is great.

Re your previous few posts, the thing about any medicine that curbs withdrawal and cravings is that the pyscho-social component remains very important in the equation. Although it would be amazing to have a medicine that could change us instantly from addicts to "normal," receptor-wise, I still think addictive behavior (especially of many years, like a lot of us) requires additional support. Behavior has to change, and that always requires effort on the part of the addict. Counseling, meetings, reading and forums like this provide structure and support, to help us remove the thinking that got us addicted in the first place. We have to learn to deal with life in a different way than altering our conciousness, or success will be fleeting.

Have a great day and rock on, OTB!
Elizabeth
You are 100% right, sort of where my doctor was leaning, when I told him I was on 5 mgs a day, he asked if I was ready to stop and I told him I was still in WD, and have been so for over 2 weeks and don't get me wrong, he was happy but he said it was uneesesary punishment, even if you are comfortable at 20 mgs, in a 24 hour period, between doses, you are likely to get less WD from that than 5 mgs every 12 hours, so that was interesting to hear half a dose spread out can be worse than 4 times the amout but waiting 24 hours.

He told me if I feel I can't quite at 5 mgs, I'm going too fast, and he said to take say 10 mgs, and see if I can feel goid enough to stop thinking about it. He said even if I took 20 mgs a day, it was better than taking 5 mgs, and thinking about nothing but the next 5 mgs for 23 hours.

Basically he said to take a bit more, have a normal life for a few days and the consider just doing what I've been doing, push it out 24 hours and I might have a hard few days but he assured me it would be nothing like what I have already been through. He's saying the same thing as you, to stop thinking about it or it will be all you know how to think about as sobriety sets in.

I really wasn't looking at Iboga, as a quick fix solution, I just think it deserves more clinical trials, it seems to help people move in the direction you talk about so, you are of course right about that, it doesn't show you the way, but maybe you can look at it as a pair of good hiking boots to wear before mountain climbing, it doesn't do the work for you, it just might makes it more bearable.

In closing, I sort if took my doctors advise, put the OTC's away, but I didnt go back to 20 mgs, a day, I took 10 mgs, at 6 am, it's now 8 pm, and I feel perfectly fine. I'm pretty sure doing the 24 hour thing is my best bet right now.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 07:09 AM   #114
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Glad to hear you are getting closer.

I'm a little under the weather-maybe a slight chest cold with a cough but thought I'd stop in to see how everyone is doing.

Glen
Very good Glen, I talked to my Doc, today and adjusted my dose to 10 mgs, once per day until I completely level out and he says I should be able to drop it after 5 days, but to not stay there more than 9, as this is when a tolerance will build, so after 5 days, transition to 5 mgs a day again then stop after 5 days completely.

I find that interesting, my anesthesiologist, does the same thing, gives me powerful doses, but says once a day, and for only 9 days.

That is 2 endorphin plasma adjustment periods, I guess it makes sense, level out but don't get too comfortable, sorry to hear about the chest cold, I know from experience, if you are on opioids, any kind, and you feel chest pain, it is probably a pretty bad cold because the opioids should be shutting down respiratory pain, if pain is pushing through I usually take a 500 mg, Zithromax, that's only if its like strep throat bad, as that med is strong enough to use for SAR'S
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Unread 01-15-2015, 04:00 PM   #115
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Hi OTB,

Glad that you talked to the doctor and are taking his advice with the 10mg every 24 hours right now. There's no shame in slowing down a bit, it's only been a few weeks ago that you were taking 200mg of oxycodone! You are determined to be off of them and so far have done a very aggressive taper.

I understand what you meant about Iboga; hey, I'll take a good pair of hiking boots any day over flip-flops for a hike :-). My response was just an added note, especially if someone new was reading.

Have a good day, thinking good thoughts for you.
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-15-2015, 09:12 PM   #116
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Hi OTB,

Glad that you talked to the doctor and are taking his advice with the 10mg every 24 hours right now. There's no shame in slowing down a bit, it's only been a few weeks ago that you were taking 200mg of oxycodone! You are determined to be off of them and so far have done a very aggressive taper.

I understand what you meant about Iboga; hey, I'll take a good pair of hiking boots any day over flip-flops for a hike :-). My response was just an added note, especially if someone new was reading.

Have a good day, thinking good thoughts for you.
Elizabeth
Thanks for the moral support, and it's better really that someone took that particular stance on Iboga, I forget sometimes people are hurting pretty bad when they come to this site, and might even overlook that Ive never even seen it, or taken it, go to some other site where somebody is trying to make a quick buck, and order something hazardous to themselves.

People here are pretty sharp, but I shouldn't discount that from my own experience, I've come several times here to get tips and overall advise when I'm in a pretty vulnerable place, and always got cautious, supportive advice, mentioning Iboga, in a good light was kind of irresponsible having almost forgotten the many hard days not so far behind me where I was looking for any and all things to help me detox.

I think that we might hear more about Iboga, in years to come but with no real human trials that I can reference, I think it should only be an option if several attempts at inpatient detox and counseling has failed and somebody's life is at risk of their damaging behavior, it might then be a consideration, and even then they would have to travel to a country where it is supervised by governing medical bodies.

Any way you look at it you are going to have to put in the time and effort to get clean, so if you are committed, it makes sense to always err on the side of caution. That treatment for the wrong person could make things much worse before it got better.
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Unread 01-15-2015, 09:55 PM   #117
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Ugg, I did a tiny adjustment in my taper, basically I took myself out of the perpetual WD yesterday by taking 5 mgs, of slow release Oxy, in the form of Targin, at 12 hour intervals instead of 24 hour intervals in an effort to stabilize, yesterday was pretty good, and then I woke up feeling rather hung over, and smelling like I played a 3 hour rugby match in the swamp lands of Missouri!

It seems like less is more, is anybody taking any natural remedy in the morning to shake off the grungy chemical sort of feeling I'm having? I feel like my body is kind of rejecting the Oxy, now, even though its putting WD at bay, it's giving me a raunchy sort of chemical feeling, or is it just a stage of the physical detox, I'm not sweating buckets of odorless water at this stage, more like I'm sweating grease, I know that sounds pretty gross but I haven't had this happen at any stage in the two and a half weeks.

I've been pounding my body with natural anti oxidants like pomegranate juice, cranberry, ginseng, etc, but only now does it seem like I have to shower every 4 hours, or I get swarmed by mosquito's from my pheromones.

Lol, it certainly isn't an emergency of the sort like I feel compelled to use more, I'm just kind of grossed out and have only had this happen once before, when I caught Dengue fever in Cambodia, I know I don't have Dengue, or I wouldn't be able to walk, a few people have mentioned camomile tea to help for the actual oxidant detox part of this, and valerian root for a fitful, less "greasy" sleep, I don't know if that makes sense to anybody, the feeling you are waking up in beef jerky smoke house sauna or something.

Essential oils are helping, for the olfactory part of it but I hope I don't have to take 4 showers a day for too long, and btw, I feel on top of the world after a shower, then I feel sticky again 4 hours later, I probably should point out I live in the tropic's, so I'm aware the weather is helping open my pores to help release the toxins, I'm just wondering how long this could go on for and would welcome any info about natural remedies, that help balance out this part of my bodies detox.

Baby powder feels great but it's a petroleum product and might be actually locking in the stuff that wants to get out. I guess I'm asking if this is normal, and if it if, what's a good supplement to smooth out this oxidant purge.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 01:16 AM   #118
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Phew! Resolved, I talked to a few locals here, a pedal bike taxi guy, and a couple folks at the farmers market (They live in the jungle, and would never even spend a dime at a pharmacy, they know all the leaves, barks, and vines to use) they all suggested different stuff, but there was one thing they ALL mentioned, and they had at the farmers market)

Something called "Sambong", so I bought some and went to my local pharmacy, and they said "aah, you taking that? You taking that instead of your other medicine, that's local, yes much better".

Still a bit skeptical I did some google research and it actually has FDA, approval, it's for:

Hypertension
Kidney Stones
Liver Cancer
Anti Fungal
Anti Microbial
Stomach Discomfort
Reduces Fever
Strong Organic Anelgesia

Lol, all this time and it was right under my nose, sounds promising right? So I let Ate, the woman give me fresh stuff that she said would make me sweat for 20 minutes, and make the fever break, and make me calm and alert all at once, drink lots of water as it will make me pee".

That's about all she said, and she said to not worry, her husband drinks it 3 times a day, and you can even make a poultice to put on arthritic areas for joint pain.

Exactly what she said would happen is what happened, I had a 20 minute sweat, with hot flashes, then about 4 re accuring symptoms I've been having immediately abated, my skin on fire was gone, the low fever feeling left, my knee and foot stopped aching, and my stomach! OMG, my stomach feels anesthtatized!

Now I'm not sure if this is because I got it fresh, or if a lot of it is because one symptom vanished giving me a better overall feeling but it's acting better than all the OTC's combined that I was taking.

I think you get it in pill form in the USA, but here there isn't a market to heavily manufacture it because everybody knows sonebody that has it growing somewhere on their property.

It says to use 50 grams in the USA, but the farmer said NO WAY, 2 would be enough, 3 times a day, I bought 25 grams, at a total cost of .75 cents USD...

Lol, it just goes to show, have a little faith in the old ways of indigenous cultures, do a lot of research, and you might find something that is safe, healthy, inexpensive, and effective. I feel a bit stupid I didn't swallow my pride and ask the locals what they use a long time ago.

I'm sitting outside in the sun now, having that feeling of a fever breaking when you really have the flu, everything is super bright, clear, and everything has sharp contrast, I feel like going to the beach almost.

I'm going to have to go thank the old lady, she says to drink it in the morning for energy and at night for sleep, what? She said its not up or down, it helps for whatever your body needs at a particular moment... Neat stuff!

http://gourmet.com.ph/index.php/blog...its-of-sambong
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Unread 01-16-2015, 06:39 AM   #119
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, what an interesting plant. I couldn't find it to be available in the US unless you buy it from ebay or Amazon. The only thing I could find on the US FDA site was this:
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcement.../ucm075345.htm
telling a company they couldn't market sambong and a couple of other things in the US without FDA approval. Meaning all the clinical trials, etc. So, it likely won't be in the herbal tea sections in the near future. Which is too bad because it sounds like it works well.

Keep us posted on how it's working for you.

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Unread 01-16-2015, 08:37 AM   #120
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, what an interesting plant. I couldn't find it to be available in the US unless you buy it from ebay or Amazon. The only thing I could find on the US FDA site was this:
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcement.../ucm075345.htm
telling a company they couldn't market sambong and a couple of other things in the US without FDA approval. Meaning all the clinical trials, etc. So, it likely won't be in the herbal tea sections in the near future. Which is too bad because it sounds like it works well.

Keep us posted on how it's working for you.

Nancy
Yeah, I can see why it's being held back, it's pretty a pretty strong analgesic, and I took it conservatively, only the one cup, and it worked for about 4 hours, when it wore off, there was some mark able rebound pain, so I think it's ideal for somebody that has a common cold to go to work, but they will pay a bit for it later on, very short acting, I would almost classify it as "rescue medicine".

I think the FDA, has concerns about its pharmacological use when it loses its freshness, like a lot of ethnobotany there are many alcaloids, that work best in harmony when it's fresh, once it's harvested some of the alcaloids don't interact how they were naturally intended, and the reason why companies here don't market it, it's shelf life might only provide a partial intended effect.

So it remains a fairly indigenous plant and I'm really lucky to have gotten it fresh, it makes me wonder how many other wonderful things are out there that big Pharma has overlooked not because of ineffectivness, but because its not worth marketing because of cost effectiveness.

A little stroll in your cities Chinatown, will carry a vast array of these kinds of plants, unfortunately they also carry items that only have basis in medical folklore, it's smart if you can find a first generation owner that carries this stuff, and has second generation "American" kids, the kids will usually know the plants that have proven medicinal properties, and the ones that still stand do to a word of mouth tradition.

I've used Chinese medicine in USA, Canada, and Thailand, and they have the best stuff for common colds, skin conditions, and especially cuts that don't require stitches, they are also very good as a "walk in clinic" assessment, there tradition dictates that they only will get business if they heal you, and not really treat you long term, they are driven by this notion of reputation so they are keen to diagnose you properly, if they feel its beyond them, they can usually give you an idea of what you need to tell your doctor, all free of charge. They won't just sell you crap that isn't enough for your condition, for fear of affecting their reputation so you get very sound opinions.

Nothing beats a real medical diagnosis but, their treatments are based on solving your ailments, not "managing" them because if other customers see you aren't being healed, he loses business, they can be a great resourses when you can't make it to your doctor, and they will be the first ones to tell you if you really do need one.

Each of their jars now usually have the Latin name of the plant, vine, or bark, so you can just google the name right there in the store to cross reference what you are being told.

Vancouver, Canada, and San Fancisco, USA, have the most comprehensive selections in the world, so if you live on the west coast, it's never a bad idea to give them a look see, they have been using these organics for thousands of years longer than the Pharma companies, I've NEVER heard of somebody having addiction problems with anything out of these shops.7
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Unread 01-17-2015, 01:03 PM   #121
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Well that is strange! I had a dream 2 weeks ago that I was working a big contract with and old firm I used to contract with, I woke up and kind of felt almost remorseful that it wasn't real so I've been thinking about dropping them a line.

I just checked my e-mail, and I got a message from them 3 weeks ago that I overlooked, with a straight up contract offer, maybe I'm getting the "shining", that's a pretty weird premonition, maybe I should speed this up and end it.

A hefty contract might be just what the doctor ordered!
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Unread 01-17-2015, 02:23 PM   #122
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Hi OTB, there goes that good karma again! Hopefully your dream and email will bear fruit. Hey, how are you feeling after making the dosage adjustments? Still taking the Sambong? When I was in Hong Kong once on business, I was eating all local cuisine, even for breakfast. After a week my stomach protested pretty badly. A friend took me to a shop to buy a little vial of tiny herbal pills, and within a day I was feeling fine. So I was pretty impressed.

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-17-2015, 03:40 PM   #123
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Hi OTB, there goes that good karma again! Hopefully your dream and email will bear fruit. Hey, how are you feeling after making the dosage adjustments? Still taking the Sambong? When I was in Hong Kong once on business, I was eating all local cuisine, even for breakfast. After a week my stomach protested pretty badly. A friend took me to a shop to buy a little vial of tiny herbal pills, and within a day I was feeling fine. So I was pretty impressed.

Best,
Elizabeth
Yes Nancy, I think the major part of WD, is through, but it's the long weeks of waiting for natural wellness of being kicks in so I'm at a stage where I'm boosting my immune system with as many natural substances I can.

I'm only using the Sambong, to replace doses, and feel I'm pretty close to being able to tough out a two day stretch now, I don't start feeling horrible until about the 30 hour mark. As for the adjustment, I felt it was actually too strong, it wasn't pleasurable, it just makes my feel spaced out now.

The adjustment gave my body a few days to catch up, and when I realized symptoms were gone, I imposed another 30 hour wait, if I'm patient, I think I'm going to be able to glide off, no depression, no more stomach issues, the Sambong, had some kind of permanent resolution, I've only taken it twice, and like I said, only as a rescue med.

Just learning to deal with rebound pain, I was mentally prepared for that, it is only going to get better, I think going back to work is going to keep my mind busy, and it was on the cards I guess, I should count my lucky stars, it's not everyone that gets head hunted for an executive position, right at the end of a huge taper and transitioning off the stuff and back to the real world.

It's a high pressure position, so I better make sure I'm 100%! Maybe a few weeks from now I'll be ready, that's one of the advantages of being head hunted, I get to call a lot of the shots!

Phew! Seems like everything is falling into place naturally, hmm, funny how fate rewards you when you make a concerted effort to change for the better, and all the more motivation to kick some butt!
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Unread 01-18-2015, 06:44 AM   #124
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, that's fabulous that things are falling into place for you - especially with being able to call the shots with that job inquiry to you. Takes a lot of pressure off since they came to you.

BTW, that was Elizabeth who posted to you yesterday - I've never been to Hong Kong.

Hopefully you had a good day yesterday and are having a good one today.

Nancy
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Unread 01-18-2015, 01:39 PM   #125
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Hi OTB,

"Phew! Seems like everything is falling into place naturally, hmm, funny how fate rewards you when you make a concerted effort to change for the better, and all the more motivation to kick some butt!"

How true! Once we get going in that positive direction, it does seem like the universe helps us along. I'm sitting here this a.m. with a massive migraine and just got off the phone with a very talkative friend, lol. But I know that this day is still better than any day I spent zoned out on opiates.

I can't remember if you exercise? I'm trying to go for daily walks and I feel good after I do. I think my natural endorphins still need stimulating...

Keep us posted and keep up the good work :-).

Best,
Elizabeth

Last edited by Eliza12; 01-18-2015 at 01:51 PM..
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Unread 01-19-2015, 08:24 AM   #126
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Hi OTB,

"Phew! Seems like everything is falling into place naturally, hmm, funny how fate rewards you when you make a concerted effort to change for the better, and all the more motivation to kick some butt!"

How true! Once we get going in that positive direction, it does seem like the universe helps us along. I'm sitting here this a.m. with a massive migraine and just got off the phone with a very talkative friend, lol. But I know that this day is still better than any day I spent zoned out on opiates.

I can't remember if you exercise? I'm trying to go for daily walks and I feel good after I do. I think my natural endorphins still need stimulating...

Keep us posted and keep up the good work :-).

Best,
Elizabeth
Yes Elizabeth, I'm having the same issue about my natural endorphins, and it can take a pretty long time before you get into a rhythm and wake up feeling wonderful, I haven't woken up feeling wonderful in many many months so I'm looking forward to that.

Just to illustrate you're point, yesterday evening, and today my WD, symtoms had a rampted up worse feeling, until my son got home with a chest cold, and it seems I've got the same thing, I sort of feel like that's unfair, until I considered, I'm going to feel awful if I stay on my low taper anyway, so maybe just stop taking even my maintenance amount and consentrate on the chest cold, and just keep telling myself it's your cold, WD is gone, don't be a baby, take some cough syrup, drink juice, and wait for your bad cold to go away.

If my 2 year old son can get through it, so can I, it just sucks to have actually gotten a bad cold at the end of my taper, but we had a tropical storm, so it was cold and wet, I can't be the only one with it so we'll see.

Today I only took 5 mgs, and a table spoon of cough syrup, I really hope when my cold is gone, so is my overall WD symptoms. I doubt it but here is a chance to kill 2 birds with one stone.
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Unread 01-19-2015, 10:25 AM   #127
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Hi OTB,

Hope both you and your son feel better soon from the colds. I got sick with a stomach thing at the end of my taper (.25 sub) and jumped. I couldn't tell if I had withdrawal symptoms or not. So it could be a blessing in disguise.

Elizabeth
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Unread 01-20-2015, 02:45 AM   #128
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Hi OTB,

Hope both you and your son feel better soon from the colds. I got sick with a stomach thing at the end of my taper (.25 sub) and jumped. I couldn't tell if I had withdrawal symptoms or not. So it could be a blessing in disguise.

Elizabeth
Yep, my body is so done with this constant strain, because I was sick, yesterday I held strong until 24 hours had passed and I took 5 mgs, so strange, it made everything worse for about 4 hours then I leveled out, same today, I waited 24 hours, took 5 mgs, and I am worse, it is NOT WD, anymore I think.

I think being truly sick, that my sick symptoms are worse than my oxy symptoms, I guess it is a blessing in disguise because oxy is making it feel worse, at least I'm on a very tiny dose, I suppose I should just stop and deal with being sick, maybe I'll be sicker just a but longer than the chest cold.

I think this is my bodies way of saying "enough!" Finish this! It's time, I just have to tell myself I should feel relatively normal by months end.
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Unread 01-20-2015, 11:01 AM   #129
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What a drag...Our whole house has a nasty cold, and I almost caved in to my meds, I know from experience that no matter how naturally sick you are, if your an opioid addict, if you take enough, it will eliminate almost any crappy feeling.

I caught myself walking upstairs to "look" at my meds...lol, we all know that stupid trick we play on ourselves, and I thought, if you break down here your going to have to write "LOSER" on your med bottle to remind yourself, do you really have to do that?

So I'm proud to say, in a very weak moment I didn't cave in. As horrible as I feel I feel upbeat and relieved I didn't do it, but I am suffering! So this is what normal people put up with when they get sick...And then I stopped to think...I AM normal too, I will suck up the tail end of WD, and whatever this bug is and come out on the other side, feeling great.

Elizabeth, mentioned it might be a blessing in disguise, and I see that now, it's very possible as this bacterial infection, or virus washes out I will feel super regenerated, as it should clear up in a few days, I've only been taking 5 to 10 mgs, of oxy, a day for the past week so if they both end at the same time, I might get an emotional boost out of rebounding.

I'm deathly scared to go back to OTC's, so I'm just doing normal paracetamol, and sambong, along with the recommended dose of cough syrup before bed.

This is going to be a very hard few days, but it will be fun to post here by weeks end that either I'm peaking in WD, or it's resolving, I'm being possitive that I did some good work on myself during the taper that maybe I won't have a WD peak on day 4, that was the whole idea.

I'm thankful for one thing, even 5mgs, of oxy is making me feel worse for some reason, it never did work for headaches, so this cold is sort of deterring me from taking it. What a catch 22!
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Unread 01-21-2015, 03:34 AM   #130
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50 hours in, nausea and dizziness are at a peak right now, I can't tell how much is WD, or me being sick, I had an intense craving for licorice, so I looked it up, there must be a reason for such an overwhelming urge.

This is what I found:

http://www.herbwisdom.com/herb-licorice-root.html

My knee feels like somebody took a baseball bat to it but I can find "comfort positions" and then I force a bit of physio on it, these are the hardest times, forced stretching while sick, in WD, and in pain, but I'm certain non of it will last more than a few more days.

I see why my doctor said to not stretch it more than 2 days after a 1 day wait, but almost 50 hours in I feel I've really just got to hold out as long as I can, just gotta keep telling myself "one day at a time", I'm feeling like time is frozen but of course it isn't, Dantes Inferno comes to mind, Canto III:

“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain"

This part of hell is for people who;

"were punished who had passed their time (for living it could not be called) in a state of apathy and indifference both to good and evil"

Wow, he summed up opioid apathy very well, I wonder if ever used opium.
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Unread 01-21-2015, 06:58 AM   #131
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, yikes, I hope this passes quickly for you and your family. Are they as sick - is that a way you could tell how much is WD?

Fingers crossed you all feel better now.

Nancy
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Unread 01-21-2015, 06:59 AM   #132
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, yikes, I hope this passes quickly for you and your family. Are they as sick - is that a way you could tell how much is WD?

Fingers crossed you all feel better now.

Nancy
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Unread 01-21-2015, 07:57 AM   #133
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, yikes, I hope this passes quickly for you and your family. Are they as sick - is that a way you could tell how much is WD?

Fingers crossed you all feel better now.

Nancy
Hi Nancy, everyone else is on the up swing, myself, I'm a bit low, 50 hours in wasn't about my cold, it's the amount of time since my last dose, so I'm not even sure at this point if its a jump, it's 9pm, here so if I can make it through the night I might as well call it my jump and stick to it, I'm telling myself it's ok, to take 10 mgs, and it's recommended by my doc so it's not a cheat, but knowing I've gone past my proper time to take it, I figure if I push it a day more I'll be at 3 days, and there's no point looking back at that point.

This is a make or break moment, I just ate mango, pomegranate, 3 fresh coconut drinks right from the shell, small amounts of chocolate, and licorice, and I just sweated out what feels like motor oil so if I can eat, sleep, and drink, I don't think I have a real reason to take anymore.

Only one .075 clonodine, one loperamide, and one antihistamine, so I'm not loaded too heavily on OTC's, if this only gets moderately worse I am going to sprint to the finish line on this but I'm feeling tenuous right now.

I'm just setting goals to not look at my watch for 2 hours then 3, just to see how bad it is, if I feel like an hour has gone by but it's only 10 minutes, I will reevaluate taking 5 mgs.

Holding on by a thread here! Lol!
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Unread 01-21-2015, 08:56 AM   #134
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Wow, drank Sambong, and sat outside where it's 96 degrees in the shade, (as Bob Marley once sang) and I had a mini detox, went and scrubbed with carbolic soap afterwards and now feel almost normal, no fever, no sandpaper skin, no anxiety, no stomach trouble, just minor joint pain, and that is subsiding from the Sambong, very strangely, that has been my best tool in this taper.

I think if I'm 50 hours into abstinence, if I'm not feeling ANY acute, and I stress acute, WD symtoms, I think the taper has served it's purpose, I feel better right now than I would back when I was on 200 mgs a day and waiting 8 hours for another dose. I should be manifesting all the heavy symptoms, but I only get that for a half an hour after drinking 2 grams of Sambong, and then I scrub my pores in the shower and I feel pretty good for several hours.

10 mgs a day for a week is where I jumped and if this is it, then I think I can give my remaining meds back to my doc, and never look back.

Tomorrow morning will be a big indicator, I might be getting ahead of myself, 72 hours in will be my litmus.
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Unread 01-21-2015, 12:23 PM   #135
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Hi OTB,

Whether you jump today or not, you've got this! You've come so far in just a short time. I can relate to: "who had passed their time (for living it could not be called) in a state of apathy and indifference both to good and evil." That is how I was while taking oxycodone. Nothing much moved me, except making sure I had enough pills. I'm very different today, glad to say.

Feel better.
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-21-2015, 03:40 PM   #136
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You have gone thru getting off oxys in a way I certainly could not have. For me it would have been agonizing. people say I must be strong to cold turkey the way I did and do but IMO tapering or cutting my own dose has always been pure agony. I think it takes a much more committed and stronger person to stop the way you have. With no opiates in the house you have no choice. With opiates present, it is hard not to take whatever it takes.

wayne
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Unread 01-21-2015, 10:14 PM   #137
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So I woke up from six hours of sleep, a little RLS, and the standard back pain that tries to fake you out into taking a pill, but guess what folks...Thats it, I had a hard 5 hours near the 50 hour mark, and Sambong herbals kicked its but.

I'm awake, showered, shaved
, and sitting in the big hot sun, just loving it!

Wayne, if I could have jumped from 200mgs, to nothing, I would have, everytime I CT, it's 5 times worse than the last time, I think we all have a few CT's in us, and some of us can do CT, all the time, and some like me have used up all their bareable CT's, I have a lot of respect for people that can do a CT, it means they are warriors and are ready to take what comes.

Then their are people like Elizabeth, who have the strength of will to commit to a lesser evil with the conviction to win small and big battles to win the war, I've always though people who do sub would make great wives, husband, and parents, because they embrace a long term commitment to a better path.

CTer's are Thor! Sub users are like George S Patton, and slow taperers from their DOC, we're more like D day soldiers, an uncompromising assault on the beach of sobriety until we hold out ground.

All super big compliments from how I see it, in the end it's all the same, if you don't have "the right stuff" it won't work...Commitment, resolve, self worth, and big time SUPPORT, this site has helped me build my self worth so I can enter sobriety with strength and focus, I owe a massive debt of gratitude to everyone here, it's just immeasurable how much it's helped mentally, not just to get through it, but to start changing how I think, how I perceive, and value what life has to offer, but more importantly, what I have to offer.

I'm 70 hours in and today it's just going to be a .075 clonodine as a counter measure of what might come. Holding strong and firm now....I'm DONE with that nonsense!
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Unread 01-21-2015, 10:58 PM   #138
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Well that says it all! We have guests over and I'm sitting outside, and I kid you not, everyone came outside pointing at me in wonderment, all conversing in local dialect.

What's going on? Are you guys making fun of the sick guy?

"No, it's your eyes, they are sky blue, and shining, they look different today"

That's funny because I have real clarity for the first time in 4 weeks, I've FINALLY got the upper hand on this thing, I'm doing a complete fruit and herbal detox today, only fresh coconut juice and pulp, and Sambong to drink, dragon fruit, sour AND ripe mango, plantains, and oranges, all organically grown, I will top up on Korean ginseng, mid day for energy, no fried food, prossessed sugar, or prossessed sodium.

I'm going to create a thread later of all the things I found from the jungle that worked so people have options, for instance, Sambong, has replaced my Loperimide, antihistamine, ibuprophen, and bioflu, just one 2 gram tea, has replaced ALL of that, and to boot it helps rebuild enzymes in your liver and kidney, and attacks free radicals in your blood and detoxes your oxidants, I keep talking about this but really, it's replaced all my OTC's, I can't believe the FDA, won't approve it for sale, it's legal, you can buy it but you can't sell it!

Time for any remaining toxins to GET OUT of my body!
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Unread 01-21-2015, 11:23 PM   #139
gotoffmdone
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I get it!!!!! The I am done with that nonsense part. It is usually easier said than done but I think we all reach a breaking, or turning, point. To where enough is enough.

Having the patience to allow the brain to heal can be tough. That is why the sooner one comes to the "I'm Done" part the better. Some brains may never truly heal, as we have severely impacted the neurotransmitters and their ability to send messages and release "feel good" chemicals.

The time on, the type and the amount of opiates taken(and route of administration) all play a role. The younger you are when you stop the better, as that plays a huge role.

My very first CT detox was a piece of cake comparatively speaking. In less than five days it was as if I had never taken any opiates. But I had been on 4-6 5mg Hydros per day for nine months. I even felt a buzz on Clonidine but that was most likely a light headed feeling from rising to quickly.

My trying to recovery mentally has become much harder upon my use of Methadone for ten yrs then Sub for eight. I think long term use of the long acting, synthetic opiates are by far the hardest to get over.


I still do not think I would have had the will to do a steady drop like you have but, then again, I have never even heard of the drug you took much less taken it.

Of the opiates I have taken since surgery, I have put some back just for the purpose of weaning. Weird, but it seems knowing I have opiates to take means I can go hrs, even days, without taking them. If I woke up with no opiates in the house, it seemed as if I needed to get some and take them asap.

The mental aspect of this addiction to opiates is something else. I could be at a Drs office in wds. The minute I saw him start to write the script I needed/wanted my wds would ease up, even before getting to the pharmacy. On the reverse, if I waited in his office all day only to realize he was not going to give me what I needed/wanted, my wds would actually get worse.

So, as odd as it seems, having opiates to take means I can go a long time without feeling the desire or need to take any. Opiate addiction appears to me, at least, to be 100% mental and 100% physical. You do the math.

The mental and physical part of opiate wds are so intertwined they seem indistinguishable at times.

Admire your tenacity.
wayne

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Unread 01-22-2015, 12:34 AM   #140
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I get it!!!!! The I am done with that nonsense part. It is usually easier said than done but I think we all reach a breaking, or turning, point. To where enough is enough.

Having the patience to allow the brain to heal can be tough. That is why the sooner one comes to the "I'm Done" part the better. Some brains may never truly heal, as we have severely impacted the neurotransmitters and their ability to send messages and release "feel good" chemicals.

The time on, the type and the amount of opiates taken(and route of administration) all play a role. The younger you are when you stop the better, as that plays a huge role.

My very first CT detox was a piece of cake comparatively speaking. In less than five days it was as if I had never taken any opiates. But I had been on 4-6 5mg Hydros per day for nine months. I even felt a buzz on Clonidine but that was most likely a light headed feeling from rising to quickly.

My trying to recovery mentally has become much harder upon my use of Methadone for ten yrs then Sub for eight. I think long term use of the long acting, synthetic opiates are by far the hardest to get over.


I still do not think I would have had the will to do a steady drop like you have but, then again, I have never even heard of the drug you took much less taken it.

Of the opiates I have taken since surgery, I have put some back just for the purpose of weaning. Weird, but it seems knowing I have opiates to take means I can go hrs, even days, without taking them. If I woke up with no opiates in the house, it seemed as if I needed to get some and take them asap.

The mental aspect of this addiction to opiates is something else. I could be at a Drs office in wds. The minute I saw him start to write the script I needed/wanted my wds would ease up, even before getting to the pharmacy. On the reverse, if I waited in his office all day only to realize he was not going to give me what I needed/wanted, my wds would actually get worse.

So, as odd as it seems, having opiates to take means I can go a long time without feeling the desire or need to take any. Opiate addiction appears to me, at least, to be 100% mental and 100% physical. You do the math.

The mental and physical part of opiate wds are so intertwined they seem indistinguishable at times.

Admire your tenacity.
wayne
I cut and pasted all of what you said because there isn't a word there that doesn't have some wisdom to it, about never feeling right again, I know from my youth many good friends had succumbed to the needle and I even helped a few get off.

20 years later, I was dumb enough to kill my pain after surgery rather than manage it and physical dependency set it, then I discovered crushing them and it was all over, never used needles but still snorted them just telling myself it was like rescue medicine, yeah, rescue from WD! Lol!

I have noticed a quick reset for brain and body in the past, but I felt I was at a way high level this time so the taper had a lot to do with letting both mind and body heal together to give me the best chance of as close to a full recovery as possible, I'm aware I can't take opiates again, the new opioid receptors I created are there for life, I'm just trying to put them to sleep, so I know going back is pointless, whatever pleasure I used to have will never happen again. And that's a good thing.

About the clonidine giving you a buzz, it is actually an opioid "potentiator"...Meaning if you have opioids in your body it will make them "feel" stronger, so 5 mgs, can feel like 10 mgs, it's a great tool in a taper, I used it to replace oxy doses to at their half life, stretching out the strength so I could wait longer between doses, google clonidine as an opioid potentiator, it's a great way to cut back on consumption, with little WD.

What you said about your doctors office, yup, the instant the script is being written, WD is gone, and it's ok to stay and chat with the doc at this point, not here today, or left early, OMG, instant despair! So I think that might be universal, I'm reasonably good friends with my doc, I have his home number, and I'm free to call him (within reason) to meet me, the few times I sent him texts on Sundays, iis when I knew it had become a problem, the moment you can't go a day without is where you open your eyes and find yourself in very deep, dark, wet, and cold hole.

I'm confident I will assimilate back into real life just fine, I have too many parts of my life that are still intact, and reasonably unscathed from my abuse, that they should be enough to "break on through to the other side", I ain't going out like Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Heath Ledger, Micheal Jackson, and the list goes on, they're genius was all arrived at BEFORE their addictions really started, and some of their body of work from their addiction is amazingly insightful, I imagine sonetimes what Jimi Hendrix, would have done if he hadn't died at 27, the thing is they have left a legacy of inspirational works behind, I can't say that yet, I owe it to my family, to myself to reach my full potential.
One of my favourite qoutes is from a movie called "A Bronx Tale"...
" there's nothing worse in life than wasted potential".

I'm tired of wasting mine.

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Unread 01-22-2015, 01:32 AM   #141
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Wasted Potential---- I have long since been of the opinion that it may just be the worst and saddest of all the side effects of drug abuse. I had a great career with lots of growth potential and a graduate degree I was headed toward obtaining at no cost, as it was being paid for by the company.

Sometimes I wonder if I would have less regret in the loss of potential area had I took pills sooner than 30 yrs of age. It is tough to deal with not realizing the potential you knew you had, as well as the opportunity to realize it. Take drugs when you are younger, prior to a career, and it is a bit more difficult to know just how far off the potential path you strayed.
Tasting success only to stifle it with drug use is hard pill to swallow. It makes it easier to feel and see the loss of potential.

There is a saying that goes something like "having one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow means you are pissing on today". Drug use allowed me to live just in the moment(or I should say exist in the moment). I did not wish to think about what brought me to that point, nor does drug use and abuse really give you anything to look forward too.

Next thing you know all those 24 hr periods of merely existing has added up and, when you finally wake up, you realize how much potential and life in general you have squandered.

If you come out of addiction relatively unscathed, with parts of your life socially or otherwise intact, thank your lucky stars. Lots of folks lose just about everything. And the "what if's" are replaced with "what now".

wayne

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Unread 01-22-2015, 03:29 AM   #142
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Wasted Potential---- I have long since been of the opinion that it may just be the worst and saddest of all the side effects of drug abuse. I had a great career with lots of growth potential and a graduate degree I was headed toward obtaining at no cost, as it was being paid for by the company.

Sometimes I wonder if I would have less regret in the loss of potential area had I took pills sooner than 30 yrs of age. It is tough to deal with not realizing the potential you knew you had, as well as the opportunity to realize it. Take drugs when you are younger, prior to a career, and it is a bit more difficult to know just how far off the potential path you strayed.
Tasting success only to stifle it with drug use is hard pill to swallow. It makes it easier to feel and see the loss of potential.

There is a saying that goes something like "having one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow means you are pissing on today". Drug use allowed me to live just in the moment(or I should say exist in the moment). I did not wish to think about what brought me to that point, nor does drug use and abuse really give you anything to look forward too.

Next thing you know all those 24 hr periods of merely existing has added up and, when you finally wake up, you realize how much potential and life in general you have squandered.

If you come out of addiction relatively unscathed, with parts of your life socially or otherwise intact, thank your lucky stars. Lots of folks lose just about everything. And the "what if's" are replaced with "what now".

wayne
Precisely right! I've spent the last year just keeping doors open, if you know what I mean. I could have jumped on many opportunities, and I didn't, I kept the relationship alive stating I had other obligation, etc, etc.

Fortunately, if you say no to a good opportunity that you are qualified for, the one offering it is usually shocked, and is prone to want you more, now that is good because if I took a venture, I might have "not lived up to my potential"...and that is damaging to a reputation, on the other hand, because if that there is built up expectation when saying "lets have a sit down", I don't know how people can do consistently good business when they are hampered by this roller coaster ride of opoiod addiction, I think some people can maintain, but are they excelling in all areas of life?

I just cannot see how sonebody can possibly do that knowing the damage, and even as I write this past 72 hours, what I consider to be the big hump, I can now stand a top the hump and see many more peaks and valley in front of me, the simple peaks and valleys of life, and I'm going to have to appreciate their beauty and possitive challenges they represent. I have to stop looking at them as an inconvenience, Thats what life is when your in the throws of opioid addiction, it's an inconvenience!

That's not living at all! I'd be a dumb ass if I didn't say I was a bit nervous, but I played a lot of contact football as a running back when I was young, and I always had the same queezy feeling in my stomach at kick off, for the first return, so I'm going to channel past possitive efforts and keep one foot in the present, and the other one stepping into the future, and I'm going to make sure I don't lag my back foot, and end up "pissing on myself" to use your analogy, I had lost my self respect, but this grinding taper had proven to myself I can do anything I put my mind to.

I've learnt a great deal about myself doing it this way, exposing my whole experience to what were strangers has forced me to not lie to myself, I must be a great liar, because I sure had myself fooled, on and off for well over a year. It's a good lesson for sure, and I'm glad I learned it before its way too late.
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Unread 01-22-2015, 09:30 AM   #143
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What a weird day, it seems like every symptom is taking its last crack at me, every few hours a different one manifests hard, then it feels like it completely disappears, and I feel normal, then another one, then normal.

Don't get me wrong, this is big time good but I'm feeling like 15 different people in the course of a waking day.

This seems close to right, 90 hours in, stuff should be resolving, it's just it usually happens gradually and this time it's like instant. I think I'm almost getting kind of stoned off my natural endorphins, I haven't felt physically great in 4 weeks so I'm concerned I won't sleep tonight I'm SO amped up and exhausted by just experiencing so much physical change almost all at once.

Feeling a bit freaked out!
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Unread 01-22-2015, 01:54 PM   #144
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Has anyone noticed the job offers pour in when you already have a job you love and are not even looking to leave. But is it hard to get so much as an an interview if you do not have a job.

wayne
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Unread 01-22-2015, 02:05 PM   #145
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Hi OTB,

Congratulations on jumping! What an accomplishment. I hope that your symptoms subside quickly. It may take some time for your body and mind to settle down, but you have shown remarkable tenacity for getting through this huge change in your life. Let it sort of wash over you and keep yourself busy to distract yourself from concentrating on symptoms. For me, experiencing emotions again was both exciting and disconcerting at the same time. We just aren't used to it!

You've got this.
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-22-2015, 05:19 PM   #146
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Hi OTB,

Congratulations on jumping! What an accomplishment. I hope that your symptoms subside quickly. It may take some time for your body and mind to settle down, but you have shown remarkable tenacity for getting through this huge change in your life. Let it sort of wash over you and keep yourself busy to distract yourself from concentrating on symptoms. For me, experiencing emotions again was both exciting and disconcerting at the same time. We just aren't used to it!

You've got this.
Elizabeth
Thank you Elizabeth! I really did a number on myself yesterday, literally only ingesting food and liquid that was of an anti oxidant, so fruits, nuts, and coconut water, then I exercised...waited until evening and ate a complex carb, and I'm not sure how to put this but I had shall we say a "moving" experience in the washroom. Lol.

Then for about an hour afterwards I felt like I was on a high dose of oxy, getting a buzz everytime I yawned, and then I slept about 5 hours, after waking up I pretty much feel normal, except pretty bad lower back pain.

I'm pretty lucky, I have a sit down for some contract work on the weekend, and quite frankly, they actually know the deal, it's an old business contact that is more than happy to throw me work as I transition back to normal, apparently they have enough confidence in me to disregard a hazy week or two.

I might just do it to get back to the normal grind, being busy is good, it's early am here so I'm going to attemt to sleep another few hours, the difference between 5 hours and 8 hours of sleep is pretty important right now, if I can get sleep figured out I have a great chance of having a good rebound.

I'm past the very worst of it for me, as you have seen, WD, is no walk in the park for me, it's been 25 very hard days, and that 25 days is a wonderful deterant, I can honestly say I've had no cravings for the bad stuff, I'm really kind of disgusted when I even think about it.

I will always associate opioids with 25 days of agony now, and your right, time to get busy and occupy my time.
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Unread 01-22-2015, 06:34 PM   #147
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Most unique wd syndrome I have heard of. Seems like it has been a heck of a rollercoaster ride. I doubt you will forget these past 25 days.

My problem was, once off opiates and feeling good, I would convince myself I could start over and handle them. For some reason I would either forget what wds were like, or felt I would never find myself in that position again. Feeling good and drug free became a double edge sword.

I wanted to prove so badly that I was not addicted and that I could control a little pill and not the other way around. I have abused myself quite a lot, trying to prove I was different. I am convinced I cannot handle opiates, and that they handle me.

Will that be enough to live my remaining years free from dependence on, or addicted too, any and all opiates. Time will tell. But one of the worst things I can do is to try and predict the future or, worse, project outside of the present moment in time.

Have to live my life as if I was taking opiates. And, by that, I mean one day, one minute or one second at a time. We all know how to live one day at a time. That is what drug abuse is all about_taking care of business today, worrying about tomorrow when it gets here.

wayne

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Unread 01-22-2015, 07:32 PM   #148
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Most unique wd syndrome I have heard of. Seems like it has been a heck of a rollercoaster ride. I doubt you will forget these past 25 days.

My problem was, once off opiates and feeling good, I would convince myself I could start over and handle them. For some reason I would either forget what wds were like, or felt I would never find myself in that position again. Feeling good and drug free became a double edge sword.

I wanted to prove so badly that I was not addicted and that I could control a little pill and not the other way around. I have abused myself quite a lot, trying to prove I was different. I am convinced I cannot handle opiates, and that they handle me.

Will that be enough to live my remaining years free from dependence on, or addicted too, any and all opiates. Time will tell. But one of the worst things I can do is to try and predict the future or, worse, project outside of the present moment in time.

Have to live my life as if I was taking opiates. And, by that, I mean one day, one minute or one second at a time. We all know how to live one day at a time. That is what drug abuse is all about_taking care of business today, worrying about tomorrow when it gets here.

wayne
I totally get it! This is not my first WD, and as I think most people can attest to, it just gets longer and more intense each time, I think this time I pushed it to its possible limits, I had instances when I would use and my body would reject it causing sweats and a lot of pissing!

So I've created so many receptors now that are there for life, all I can do to have a normal life is to force dormancy to those receptors. If I ever have another operation, I will insist on in hospital stay until I can leave freely without pain meds. What's an extra few thousand dollars over an extra week to save myself from running to the doctor and pharmacy every two weeks for years to come right?

I've had a hell of a ride, and it's time to get off the rollercoaster. I'm having no real issues with energy or depression right now at all, just a stiff lower back, but that happens everytime I've done this.

I'm pretty sure I paid the full price so to speak in that 25 days, and that's why I did it so aggressively, so I could glide into sobriety with confidence, I know the real work starts now but I woke up today at the same time as my son and we feed the fish together, played outside, etc.

All I have to do if I get an urge is look at my phones screen saver and see my son, it will be pride that keeps me from going back, not guilt. You have to forgive yourself after an ordeal like that, but also implement self "tough" love too.
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Unread 01-22-2015, 10:39 PM   #149
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BTW, Wayne, I found out why I was having all those weird symptom resolves yesterday, at night I've been taking a small amount of "Vitex negundo L"...It's a cough syrup we give to our son, if he gets a high temperature, it's made from the Lagunda Leaf, little did I know...

Vivex negundo L, has anxiolytic agents that enhance the response to GABA, so this leaf extract was acting like a benzo, I stopped all benzos, 3 weeks ago. I read so much about people suffering from night axiety and sleep problems, this stuff has been great for a mood adjustment at night, that combined with the detox property of Sambong, jump started my sympathetic nervous system, and gave me a "herbal" high.

I take only take the the recommended amount for a baby and it works wonders, it's also good for cold and flu symptoms so no wonder I was full on buzzing yesterday, wow 4 weeks ago it was 200 mgs of oxy, a couple of zanax, some redbulls thrown in somewhere and today I can take a baby dose of Laguna leaf extract, and one cup of herbal tea, and I have an entire turn around.

Ultimately I shouldn't be taking anything but I'm on day 4 to 5 of an oxy jump, so I'm not beating myself up about herbal products that are doing what Valium and Oxy, used to.
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Unread 01-23-2015, 08:25 AM   #150
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Wow! What a reality check, if you are on or have taken opioids, here is an entire CITY, that had been affected, if you are in recovery, it is an amazing testament to making sure you have a support system in place, if you are still struggling, DO NOT WATCH THIS LINK!

It is graphic, and has many triggers, but if you can make it past the triggers you will NEVER want to mess with addiction again!

Watching this made me realize all the people and things in life that are worth so much more, this is so sad, empowering, and mostly sobering, well done!

http://youtu.be/aIbpt1aDFqM
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