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Unread 01-01-2015, 02:55 PM   #51
Oxytarginbup#1
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, wow, that sounds so promising. Keeping my fingers crossed! It would truly be a happy new year!

Nancy
Well, it seems the eye of the storm has passed, and I am having a hard time trying to sleep, this being the first day of the 4 that I only administered once, but I'm not feeling worse, just awake.

The disclaimer is a good point, even "when" not if (because I am determined) this method proves successful, it remains to be seen how I fare, 4 to 5 days without anything, that being the average duration of the strongest WD, symptoms.

Also, I don't think a doctor would EVER recommend intentionally precipitating WD, through the process of tampering with the pill matrix, they just simply don't make this in a quick release for...yet...
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Unread 01-01-2015, 04:33 PM   #52
gotoffmdone
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My Sub Dr in 2006 was afraid I would precip wds and he was right. Should have never been inducted. But I turned the long acting Methadone into a short acting one by ripping it off my receptors in one fell swoop with the plain Bupe, no Naloxone. Nothing has even come close to those PW's and I have lots of experience with going cold turkey. PW's are by far and away the worst. Throw Methadone into the mix and there was hell to pay. Hard to believe that was over eight yrs ago. Also hard to believe I traded Methadone for Sub all that time. Until this past August, that is.

wayne
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Unread 01-01-2015, 06:36 PM   #53
theswan
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My best wish's to you Oxytarginbup-Time will heal all but it is hell getting there.

FYI on bupe and pain. When I was on suboxone I rarely felt it helped my pain until when tapering I tried something. I had gone to the Metropolitan Opera for the first time and sat in the "high" seats knows as "family circle" well Family circle seats were made for a family of munchkins because my knees were in my chest. My back as usual acted up and all I knew to do was try a larger dose-I was at maybe 1/2mg and took nearly a total of 3 or 4mgs and gosh darn-it helped a lot.

Fast forward to a year off the subs-I tried and tried to live with the pain but could not. I tried tramadol and NSAID's to no avail so my pain doctor wrote for "Buspan" or as it is known, the patch.

It worked a bit but I did work my way up to a total of 6 two mil tabs of subutex a day. I feel that after a year off my chemistry changed and bupe just seems to work better. Even post hip replacement surgery, I choose the subutex over hydromorphine (Diludid) I know it has not worked for Wayne and others but for me it has been effective as a pain drug.

Good luck

Glen
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Unread 01-01-2015, 09:52 PM   #54
gotoffmdone
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Glen it may work now that I have been Sub free for almost five months, but the price I would pay wanting to come off it is just not worth it anymore. The best way for me to get rid of my pain is to have about an hrs worth of surgery in what has become the worst part of my back. I have one hell of a screwed up back but there is one particular area that hurts more than the rest.

I have always been able to deal with pain, refusing any and all narcotics even after surgery while in the hospital. The exception being when I came down with Spinal Meningitis while on vacation in Myrtle Beach. Spent seven days in the hospital with Demerol for headaches. But left with a script of which I never took the first.

Emotional feelings caused me more pain and that led me to reach for a couple hydros. I had forgotten I had taken them until they kicked in 45 minutes later. Instant cure for what was ailing me inside. Had no idea what a hydro was. Wish it had made me sick and I would never have touched them again but they worked, too well! If oxymorphone along with oxycodone has not helped my guess is Sub would not either. Sub and me have had a love/hate relationship the second I got on it. It was just so hard to put down until I transitioned over to the full agonist. Now I have been off of then going on four weeks. Pain mgmt. is not for me. Getting my back fixed is the only solution. Pills for pain may numb the pain but so will Cyanide.

wayne
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Unread 01-02-2015, 12:42 AM   #55
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I get the hot a cold feeling. I have not had a fever but at times it feels as if hot coals are inside my head and stomach but at the same time my skin has chill bumps. Thankfully all that is in the past. My biggest problem at this point is having my days and night mixed up in terms of any sleep I get. I may sleep during the day because I do not like seeing the sun come up at all. I have got to get this sleep cycle regulated if I am going to have any chance of feeling better.

I guess my number one problem at this point is feeling the horrific back pain. Yesterday I did get a Toradol shot to no avail. See the surgeon Jan 23rd but hopefully they will have a cancellation. When you are not on opiates at the copious amount I have been on for yrs the body's natural defenses against pain shuts down but in this case I do not think it would matter. I have dealt with lots of pain unaided by pain meds in my life. NOTHING effects my entire being like this back pain.

wayne
Yes, cronic back pain is hard to explain to anyone, I was in a full body cast when I was 8 from a car accident, had my jaw wired shut, my femur in traction with pins, and my wrist was broken...

All I remember, is screaming and crying about my back, which wasn't broken or fractured in any way. It was the immobility, they actually had me on one of those self medicating buttons, I just kept pressing it, they had to give me 3 placebo shots to make sure before knocking me out.

Back pain can be just agonizing.
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Unread 01-02-2015, 12:53 AM   #56
Oxytarginbup#1
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My best wish's to you Oxytarginbup-Time will heal all but it is hell getting there.

FYI on bupe and pain. When I was on suboxone I rarely felt it helped my pain until when tapering I tried something. I had gone to the Metropolitan Opera for the first time and sat in the "high" seats knows as "family circle" well Family circle seats were made for a family of munchkins because my knees were in my chest. My back as usual acted up and all I knew to do was try a larger dose-I was at maybe 1/2mg and took nearly a total of 3 or 4mgs and gosh darn-it helped a lot.

Fast forward to a year off the subs-I tried and tried to live with the pain but could not. I tried tramadol and NSAID's to no avail so my pain doctor wrote for "Buspan" or as it is known, the patch.


It worked a bit but I did work my way up to a total of 6 two mil tabs of subutex a day. I feel that after a year off my chemistry changed and bupe just seems to work better. Even post hip replacement surgery, I choose the subutex over hydromorphine (Diludid) I know it has not worked for Wayne and others but for me it has been effective as a pain drug.

Good luck

Glen

Thanks theswan, I'm getting the joint aches something fierce now, I'm getting to about 20mgs, of Oxycodone, a day now from 200mgs, 5 days ago.

I'm taking Arcoxia, and getting favorable results but I'm not taking it right now, I'm keeping that as my secret weapon so to speak when I jump...

I'm below the amount recommended, for the patch strength I have so I might not take it at all if I can just be disciplined for 1 more week, surely this constant low fever is going to break...

I'm very lucky, my pain I have now realized is not cronic, a lot of it has been confused with pain med WD, so I just swore I would force myself down to the lowest recommended dose of Oxy, and if WD was worse than the real pain it was time to take a hard look in the mirror, and tell myself.

YOU DON'T NEED THIS MEDICINE! You did, but now you don't, time to move on and not have it dictate your life.
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Unread 01-02-2015, 12:59 AM   #57
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My Sub Dr in 2006 was afraid I would precip wds and he was right. Should have never been inducted. But I turned the long acting Methadone into a short acting one by ripping it off my receptors in one fell swoop with the plain Bupe, no Naloxone. Nothing has even come close to those PW's and I have lots of experience with going cold turkey. PW's are by far and away the worst. Throw Methadone into the mix and there was hell to pay. Hard to believe that was over eight yrs ago. Also hard to believe I traded Methadone for Sub all that time. Until this past August, that is.

wayne
Wow! Reading stories like that is what is keeping me motivated...I know that feeling of just utter hopelessness when in PW, I'm taking 20mgs, Oxycodone, and that's it! Nothing else today...those PW, are gone now, it's just the hot and cold flashing...constantly...that I have to deal with, as long as I keep the nausea, and high blood pressure in check, I can take just about anything.
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Unread 01-02-2015, 05:13 AM   #58
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Aaah, ok, figured it out, all those feelings I was having yesterday was the resolution of my massive taper from 200mgs, of Oxy, to 30-40mgs a day, I'm pretty sure that the final acute symptoms of the missing 160-170mgs, of Oxy, have mostly resolved.

Today I'm feeling VERY low energy, it was smart to cut out the antihistamine, Loperidime, and clonodine, might have to have a "comfort" day at 30mgs, without OTC, meds, maybe 2 so they will have efficacy when I jump...I almost felt ready but after 20 hours I realized I've beaten up my body pretty bad with the 160-170 jump, I better physically regroup.

Just regestering high on the hot flashes, and irritability at the moment.

So it looks like the first half of this is over. I wonder if my second cut will be smoother of rougher, 40-30mgs, is mentally tough, but surely 200mgs, to 30-40mgs, has heavier WD symptoms than 40-30mgs to nothing.

Ready for what looks to be round 2!

Getting frustrated but NOT loosing resolve!
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Unread 01-02-2015, 06:45 AM   #59
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, glad you're not losing your resolve! Just keep looking at the tremendous reduction you've done already! Not an easy feat and you did amazingly well doing it that way.

You got this!

Nancy
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Unread 01-02-2015, 08:39 AM   #60
Oxytarginbup#1
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, glad you're not losing your resolve! Just keep looking at the tremendous reduction you've done already! Not an easy feat and you did amazingly well doing it that way.

You got this!

Nancy
Thanks Nancy, that's why this site is so amazing, and you know it. Those few words of encouragement, are the best motivators, I chose this site because it has many people IN RECOVERY, and not nessessarily where I am, so I'm great full to have a thread here. It lets me also see where I cut too fast or where I could have cut quicker, although I think I cut as much as I could tolerate without being moderately functional.

Being laid up in bed just ain't my style.

I certainly plan to be active here when I am past physical dependence and on recovery. Hopefully I'll be able to give as much as I've taken out of this.


After a pretty grueling, and aggressive 5 days, I thought it would be smart to "reset" my body...In otherwords, find out what dose my body IS comfortable at, I'm low enough now that I only had to induct 5mgs, every 4 hours, and it took 3 inductions.

What I learnt was I was only 5mgs, off from feeling "normal", so I highly recommend after cutting 3/4 of your previous intake to take stock of where your body is comfortable, and to see if your personal method is working.

Mine is working, just a TINY bit too aggressive, but some would argue to be as aggressive as you can possibly tolerate.

I'm now VERY comfortable at 45mgs, over 30 hours, so my next challenge, is:

10mgs, every 8 hours, starting tomorrow.

Apparently I'm in what a doctor called the "sweet spot"... Meaning some people can just jump now, I was VERY down earlier, and just adjusting my dose 5mgs, has helped immensely.

Still WAY ahead of schedule, it's good to set realistic goals, and then beat them.

You're right!

I got this!
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Unread 01-02-2015, 12:52 PM   #61
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Hey Oxytarginbup#1!

I've been reading your thread and I admit I have no clue as to some of the meds you are talking about, but we are on the same page talking about symptoms! I also believe that "you got this"!

My sub jump was from 2-4mg on Christmas Eve Day. I would tell anyone that is too high to jump from - BUT I got myself to that point so that is what happened, and I have to deal with it. I can deal with it with a "poor me" attitude or I can just push forward as best I can. I choose the latter. Believe me, some days (hours, moments) are better than others but I know I will get through it. I've been around here for a few years - 7 or 8 I think - and the support is phenomenal. We get it!

You're gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm glad I taught a lifting class this am for an hour - then I jumped on one of the ellipticals at the gym for a half hour and just pushed it. It felt amazing. I don't remember having a feeling like that for a long time. I've fallen into a "fitness instructor" slump where I teach all the time and don't tend to my own, crazy, sweat pouring workouts. I need to do that more. Wow. Anyway, my point is that you are pushing through, and I'm proud of you. People don't understand what we go through. 'Normal' people. Haha, but what exactly is 'normal'? Take care! Jenm
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Unread 01-02-2015, 01:07 PM   #62
gotoffmdone
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jenm

I am jealous that you can do that. My back hurts just typing this. Normal is being on an opiate. This is abnormal

wayne
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Unread 01-02-2015, 03:59 PM   #63
jenm
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I had my low back fused in 2007.....and it worked wonders for me. Prior to that the pain was absolutely horrible and I had trouble bending or even moving. I am so grateful that it worked as well as it did. I absolutely know what that feels like though, I will never ever forget. With the degenerative disc thing, I may have problems in the future, too. Who knows. I'm just going to stay in today because I cannot handle more. I will pray for you! Jenm
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Unread 01-03-2015, 03:18 AM   #64
Oxytarginbup#1
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Hey Oxytarginbup#1!

I've been reading your thread and I admit I have no clue as to some of the meds you are talking about, but we are on the same page talking about symptoms! I also believe that "you got this"!

My sub jump was from 2-4mg on Christmas Eve Day. I would tell anyone that is too high to jump from - BUT I got myself to that point so that is what happened, and I have to deal with it. I can deal with it with a "poor me" attitude or I can just push forward as best I can. I choose the latter. Believe me, some days (hours, moments) are better than others but I know I will get through it. I've been around here for a few years - 7 or 8 I think - and the support is phenomenal. We get it!

You're gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm glad I taught a lifting class this am for an hour - then I jumped on one of the ellipticals at the gym for a half hour and just pushed it. It felt amazing. I don't remember having a feeling like that for a long time. I've fallen into a "fitness instructor" slump where I teach all the time and don't tend to my own, crazy, sweat pouring workouts. I need to do that more. Wow. Anyway, my point is that you are pushing through, and I'm proud of you. People don't understand what we go through. 'Normal' people. Haha, but what exactly is 'normal'? Take care! Jenm
Thanks Jenm, you know I have a weak dose of Sub, in case this just got too intense, also because I tried a method I haven't heard anyone else use, or had any failure or success rate.

I read a lot of people say they do CT, and that's there style...I think "some" maybe don't mention it works because they simply had no access to money or pills, or time.

I have all 3, so CT, was just TOO brutal, by the middle of day 3 my heart rate would be just far too intense, and I would cave. I think a lot of other people have a similar experiences. The primary reason for the Sub.

My fright is if I can't take the WD, from a full opioid, agonist, with a short half life...Why think its going to be easier to kick a Sub, that as a WAY longer half life? I understand people get on Sub, to get their life back, and I applaud this.

I just thought if there was a way to have day 3 and 4 in the beginning, that it would be a cake walk after this...

Well, I have to say its proving successful, although its taken enormous will powe to do the first heavy drop, yesterday I slept 10 to 12, hours, missing my dose time, wich is great! Upon waking up, the WD flu symptoms are largely gone and I would say I have a bad cold right now.

I have a script for Oxy, that expires tomorrow, and I'm not filling it, it is 20 minutes to the pharmacy, I have NO desire, using the Naloxone, has created a "Pavlov's dog" scenario, where I have retrained my mind to dread taking a dose because of the PW, at the same time, getting at least a few hours EACH DAY of this ordeal to feel normal, and regroup.

I think it's that unrelenting downward spiral that takes like 4 or 5 days, without a single break that made me fail in the past.

This isn't over, I am now just taking 20mgs, at 12 hours, then at 18 hours, then at 24 hours and I think that will pretty much do it, I know I'm going to feel sick ALL week, but it's like having a cold right now, I discontinued ALL OTC, medicine to give my liver a break, and will only use them when I jump, I also have the feeling, that I might be ready to jump sooner than expected, having had the rest day has helped.

It's been 12 hours since 15mgs, and I can take what's being served up, I should note, I replaced all the OTC, with antioxidants, pomegranate juice, cashews, cranberry...etc, etc...and is it ever helping.

The big difference is this taper had let me eat and sleep everyday, where I couldn't do that CT, I hope you are doing good, the exercise is so good, you are speeding up your prosess immensely.

I will keep everybody posted...

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Unread 01-03-2015, 09:24 AM   #65
Oxytarginbup#1
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Down to 30mgs, a day. I was told to not linger at this amount and to be determined to drop it 5mgs, a day, or you get into a time rut and will experience the same WD, I just endured, so the next 5 days are going to be the phase out stage. The Naloxone is so low dose that I run the risk of "enjoying" the smaller doses.

This is where people fool themselves and say, "look how well I've done, I've got control, so I can just use "for fun" now. I've already made this mistake...Not this time!

Must make a mental note to start re inserting myself back to social life while still not feeling tip top. I read on a thread someone who went through the pain staking ordeal of WD, to post later..."Im bored, going to back on Oxy.

PLEASE DON'T! Download some short stories, it's helping distract me and get me motivated to be creative again...to get my brain naturally happy again.

Wow! I'm starting to see the real work starts AFTER this WD is over...thank the stars above I do a fair amount of freelance writing. Time to focus on getting back to unfinished pieces and just start editing to get back into the motions, hopefully as my own body chemistry resolved, inspiration will come back.

To my horror, I found out some very successful writers where blitzed when they wrote.(Some I knew about, but I dont read Stephen King much, but now there are a few im curious about now)

Stephen King, admitted to not even remembering writing "Cujo", he stayed up for days on end that year on Cocaine, and it turned out to be his most successful year of publishing in his career. He wrote that book in one Cocaine bing sitting.

Wow!

The lesson to be learned from this is his wife dumped out his garbage pail and blood crusted spoons were in there with cough syrup, and cigarettes smoked to the filter, and told him to shape up or ship out.

He made the right choice of course, his family, but it shows it can really happen to all of us, him being all messed up at home with his children around, hiding out in his "home office" getting wasted.

"The famous story of the St.Bernard, Cujo, was written by Stephen King in 1981. The book was so popular it was eventually also made into a movie. To this day, the name 'Cujo' is frequently used to describe scary dogs.

However, he doesn't even have a memory of ever writing it! At this point in time King was a heavy drinker and drug abuser, and almost every scene in Cujo he forgot writing. This was revealed in a semi-autobiographical book about writing that King released. He mentioned this period of time is among his biggest regrets in life."

He has written a sequel to "The Shining" called "Doctor Sleep"...about the little boy from the movie, but it's actually a book about his recovery which I find interesting...

One qoute I like, because it happens to all of us in WD (why some of us try and clean the house when we feel overwhelmed):

"The hungover eye," he writes, "had a weird ability to find the ugliest things in any given landscape."

You don't have to be a SK fan to appreciate that observation.

So true! I'm still in a stage where food LOOKS and SMELLS...like...(choose your expletive)

I can't wait for food to look and taste good again, fruit and raw vegetables, pistachios, and cashews are all I can bare.

While those of us who have made a choice to remove the drugs from our lives have to be careful, I think it's great to be able to READ about that pleasant "state". You never get WD, after reading a lot of books ;-)

Some notables are:

http://listverse.com/2013/08/23/10-l...ug-addictions/

My favorite being Philip K. Dick's "A Scanner Darkly"...to realize he wrote this in the 70's, on bad meth, makes it more entertaining to read for me.

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Unread 01-03-2015, 05:49 PM   #66
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Hello Oxytargin.

I have to google the medications you post including "Targin" because different countries have different names. Best to stick with the generic but I'm guilty as well.

Hey Wayne, yeah you and I have been taking about the pain and the value or lack of value from bupe for quite a while. As you know just like some need crazy high doses of suboxone (like 24mg) and others can get by with 2mg or less, we have vastly different reactions to medications. Therefore there is no right or wrong-simply it works or it does not!

Bupe works for me and I am happy for it. Even with massive amounts of regular opiates, after a time the pain would not be controlled in fact at some point I think we develop "hyperanalgesia" The opiate itself demands more, more-more! (as we well know) Anyway the beauty for me is now at a steady dose, I do not require more, more more! I'd agree regular "Mu agonist"s did work way better then bupe at one time but now (maybe because of the years of being on bupe) I prefer the bupe. The only exception was the first few hours out of surgery when I was getting massive amounts of hydromorphone (Diludid) did the hydromorphine seem to control the pain better.

I have another consideration and that is sleep apnea-Regular opioid meds really depress the breathing and bupe does not. The main issue is it works for my pain and it does not make me a slave to it due to tolerance and needing more.

Again, best wishs to you in your taper

Glen
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Unread 01-03-2015, 10:52 PM   #67
Oxytarginbup#1
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Hello Oxytargin.

I have to google the medications you post including "Targin" because different countries have different names. Best to stick with the generic but I'm guilty as well.

Hey Wayne, yeah you and I have been taking about the pain and the value or lack of value from bupe for quite a while. As you know just like some need crazy high doses of suboxone (like 24mg) and others can get by with 2mg or less, we have vastly different reactions to medications. Therefore there is no right or wrong-simply it works or it does not!

Bupe works for me and I am happy for it. Even with massive amounts of regular opiates, after a time the pain would not be controlled in fact at some point I think we develop "hyperanalgesia" The opiate itself demands more, more-more! (as we well know) Anyway the beauty for me is now at a steady dose, I do not require more, more more! I'd agree regular "Mu agonist"s did work way better then bupe at one time but now (maybe because of the years of being on bupe) I prefer the bupe. The only exception was the first few hours out of surgery when I was getting massive amounts of hydromorphone (Diludid) did the hydromorphine seem to control the pain better.

I have another consideration and that is sleep apnea-Regular opioid meds really depress the breathing and bupe does not. The main issue is it works for my pain and it does not make me a slave to it due to tolerance and needing more.

Again, best wishs to you in your taper

Glen

Thanks Glen, at about 20mgs, now, feeling VERY cagey, lol, Loperidime is my best friend right now, as the Naloxone prevents ANY opiod to function in the stomach so the stomach anxiety is full on, but it's been a week so my stomach issues are resolving, just hard to deal with the mornings.

This last bit is a bit agonizing, but noting like the first big cut so I'm just going through the motions now, time will sort this out I'm sure.
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Unread 01-04-2015, 01:04 AM   #68
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Hi OTB

I really admire your dedication to your taper. That was really interesting about
Stephen King. I liked that quote! I know back in the years I drank to blackout, I did things both negative and positive things that I have no memory of...pretty scary, when you think about it. I hope more foods become palatable soon, but at least the ones you can eat right now are healthy :-).

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-05-2015, 05:24 AM   #69
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Hi OTB

I really admire your dedication to your taper. That was really interesting about
Stephen King. I liked that quote! I know back in the years I drank to blackout, I did things both negative and positive things that I have no memory of...pretty scary, when you think about it. I hope more foods become palatable soon, but at least the ones you can eat right now are healthy :-).

Best,
Elizabeth
Thanks Elizabeth, yup, I'm doing it period, no more NOT WANTING to take my 2 year old son to the Aquarium...THAT is unnatural, and THATs where I knew this was a BIG problem.

It is awesome, opiates that is, when I need to research, and just before an opiate nod, my imagination was remarkable.

By just flooding your body with a drug that, no matter how you feel physically or emotionally, it will bring euphoria, is a dangerous tool for a writer, the very component of writing is being alone, closed off, and imaginative. I've read some of my prose, written in nod state, and I wonder who wrote that?...Some of it is "no edit" material, pure stream of consciousness perfection, but the price is too high.

My favorite part of my day is when I feed our fish with my son, he seems to love it too, screaming..."fish, fish, fish, as I begrudgingly come down the stairs to participate.

That should be fun! Not a chore...

I have had a series of jobs that required imagination, and have afforded my financial comfort, time to get out while I still have a chance at normality, I will have to visit, the sweet fog of waking reverie, in my memory now. I think it's doable.

It's all about my state of mind now, I am down to 20mgs, a day, that is a 1000% reduction! I owe it to myself to give my body a chance.

I saw a documentary on Stephen Hawkins, yesterday, wow, how selfish I have been to become so self involved, when I have sooo much to motivate me in the "real world"...

I had a pork chop yesterday...Went in fine...next day? Niagra Falls comes to mind...Not pleasant, I still have a long way to go before my brain repairs itself, I thought the duress on the body was the worst, but it's the lack of natural endorphins, that's proving hard.

I wish I was in South America, right now, I'd do a 36 hour Ayahuasca, trip, and purge the body, but I'm half way around the world. I have a good understanding of psychotropic, drugs like psilocybin, LSD 100, mescaline, and or, peyote.

I don't look at these as drugs to be honest, and I actually DON'T enjoy them anymore, but they seem to have a "reset brain" function, that isn't talked about much in modern medicine. It sure would be an improvement if waiting weeks before feeling normal again.

Yes, Elisabeth, I put that in about SK, to sort of let people know, it's usually people that are creative, that actually "abuse" even our own warranted prescriptions. It can give us back the "feeling" of inspiration, and that's wonderful if something is "created" out of that.

But when it DICTATES or REMOVES, "natural" inspiration, then it's time for a change.

Slowly but surely I'll get there again, this has been a long journey, as time stands still when you feel horrible.

Einstein said it best talking about relativity...

"Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity"

Last edited by Oxytarginbup#1; 01-05-2015 at 05:27 AM..
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Unread 01-06-2015, 06:02 AM   #70
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Holding pretty strong at 20mgs, now it's time to downgrade to 15mgs. I never thought it would be so difficult at such tiny doses, although, I suppose they are the "recommended" doses.

I'm just waiting for the morning I wake up and feel great, rather than being woken up from mild WD, I even had a peculiar dream about Subs, which I am not even taking, so strange that I inducted in my dream and I actually slept longer.

Very weird, my REM sleep is just in such a high gear, every morning I wake feeling like I watched a David Cronenburg, movie marathon, that guy really has a handle on the subconscious in his movies I think.

Friends are visiting and I actually feel I might be up to the challenge of a busy social setting, this last bit is REALLY the hardest part.
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Unread 01-06-2015, 06:32 AM   #71
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, a 1000% reduction. That has to make you feel good looking at that number. Your son sounds like a cutie. He has to be a big motivator now. FISH FISH FISH. In your the bupe induction and then you slept longer. In your dream did the wds go away? Interesting that you mentioned Ayahuasca. I caught part of a documentary about it on CNN recently while flipping through the channels. I'll have to find it on YouTube as I didn't see the whole thing.

Maybe having friends visiting is a good thing right now - having the challenge and pushing yourself through it. Have fun and laugh a lot. Good for the endorphin production.

Nancy
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Unread 01-06-2015, 07:50 AM   #72
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, a 1000% reduction. That has to make you feel good looking at that number. Your son sounds like a cutie. He has to be a big motivator now. FISH FISH FISH. In your the bupe induction and then you slept longer. In your dream did the wds go away? Interesting that you mentioned Ayahuasca. I caught part of a documentary about it on CNN recently while flipping through the channels. I'll have to find it on YouTube as I didn't see the whole thing.

Maybe having friends visiting is a good thing right now - having the challenge and pushing yourself through it. Have fun and laugh a lot. Good for the endorphin production.

Nancy

Yup, it is REALLY the mental part of it now, the knowledge that I am saying a final goodbye to an abusive temptress...lol!

Yes, that dream was SO weird, and yeah, I slept a little longer having had some sort of resolve in the dream, really made me think about Freud, and his idea about the ID, (our genetic predisposition) and the EGO, (the part of outside influences that affect our ID) and the SUPER EGO, both ID, EGO, and our own moral judgement based on both.

My natural chemistry is being FORCED back on line, so my brain is now struggling to deal with all the new input.

A weird thing about the brain, the human brain takes in 11 million bits of information every second but is aware of only 40!

I must be getting all 40 thrust upon me at once, and my brain is forcing the ideas into scenarios at a subconscious level, trying to clean out its junk drawer so to speak.

I think because I have been obsessing over the taper, and the drug itself, what time I took it, when should I take it again, etc, etc, my subconscious invaded and said ENOUGH of the obsessing! Just get on with it!

There are these stages of real life flooding back instantly, that can be overwhelming.

Yes, ayahuasca, is pretty interesting, the DMT activated the GOD gene, apparently. Imagine if they could link that with the GOD particle (Higgs Bosson), maybe we might have a revelation.

Id love to listen to the physicists, at CERN, talking about the results of the hadron collider, while under the influence of a heavy psychotropic.

I'm sure they would come up with some "out of the box" ideas.

As you can see, my mind is DEFINITELY healing, as I've noticed my interests are moving away from the "physical" more towards "thought" or the metaphysical...

It's a good indicator that maybe it's time to jump!
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Unread 01-06-2015, 07:59 PM   #73
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Hi OTB,

Thanks for posting on my thread - I answered you there. You had read one of my first posts from July - I'm actually done with my taper and jumped in November :-). Hope your stomach is doing better today. We do go through a lot of mental and emotional changes as we get back to reality. Have you thought about getting some help like counseling or groups (NA/AA) etc.? Sometimes we need help to deal with all that reality and to make sure we don't abuse substances again. Just a thought...

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-07-2015, 04:18 AM   #74
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Hi OTB,

Thanks for posting on my thread - I answered you there. You had read one of my first posts from July - I'm actually done with my taper and jumped in November :-). Hope your stomach is doing better today. We do go through a lot of mental and emotional changes as we get back to reality. Have you thought about getting some help like counseling or groups (NA/AA) etc.? Sometimes we need help to deal with all that reality and to make sure we don't abuse substances again. Just a thought...

Best,
Elizabeth
Yes, I realized that, sometimes the forum lists last post or first post at the top so I read the beginning of your odyssey...I apologize, I thought you went back on sub, and were having a bad reaction.

I did realize my error but couldn't delete, lol, I come here when I feel the need to use for an extra hour or two of distraction, and can be a little cagey when I arrive...lol, people here are so understanding, any minute spent here is a minute you are devoting yourself to recovery, so I force myself here to stay focused and humble.

I did read your latest posts, and it's all so good, all the talk is about real life, and not the "stuff".

A really good motivator, I'm at the end of my taper, at about 15mgs a day, and this part is so mentally draining, the part where you say 100% goodbye, I see how well you are doing and it's giving me the extra push to not "reward" myself.

My reward will be being emotionally available to my family like you are doing. Thanks for posting on my thread, it's really great to see people WAY ahead of me doing so well...and this is all a BIG TIME waiting game.

In terms of NA, and AA, I attended when I was younger, and notices that some people relapse together, doubling their connections to their drug, so for me, just being 100%, out of the scene works for me.

I am not religious, and don't dig the "give yourself to a higher power" thing, but I DO, like the "red book" the bible that highlights the teachings of Jesus, it is all good advice on how to treat yourself, and to treat others.

Keep up the good fight!
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Unread 01-07-2015, 02:14 PM   #75
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Hi OTB,

Down to 15 mg - that is great! You have been very disciplined in your taper and it is really paying off for you. Not that you haven't had some misery, but you've kept going through it. And it is so worth it, to be able to make and keep those human connections again! Not to mention being able to be proud of yourself for living a sober life instead of the "when can I ingest the next substance" life. I also leaned heavily on this forum while tapering and found much kindness and support.

I'm also a recovering alcoholic for most of the past 25 years, so went to AA for a long time. I'm not religious either, so my higher power is basically the sky and nature, and it worked fine for me. I haven't gone in years but always keep the possibility in mind. It's the learning how to live part (without drugs or alcohol) that trips a lot of us up. Giving up the mindset that whenever something happens, good or bad, we reach for a pill or a drink. AA helped me learn how to live sober. But it's not for everyone :-).

Good luck as you go to 15 mg. Are you going to taper down more before you jump? Are you still planning on using the patch? A new member, Lolajane, is using the Butrans patch, so you could check out her thread if you like.

Take good care OTB,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-07-2015, 03:34 PM   #76
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Lolajane's thread:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=29793
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Unread 01-08-2015, 09:01 AM   #77
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Hi OTB,

Down to 15 mg - that is great! You have been very disciplined in your taper and it is really paying off for you. Not that you haven't had some misery, but you've kept going through it. And it is so worth it, to be able to make and keep those human connections again! Not to mention being able to be proud of yourself for living a sober life instead of the "when can I ingest the next substance" life. I also leaned heavily on this forum while tapering and found much kindness and support.

I'm also a recovering alcoholic for most of the past 25 years, so went to AA for a long time. I'm not religious either, so my higher power is basically the sky and nature, and it worked fine for me. I haven't gone in years but always keep the possibility in mind. It's the learning how to live part (without drugs or alcohol) that trips a lot of us up. Giving up the mindset that whenever something happens, good or bad, we reach for a pill or a drink. AA helped me learn how to live sober. But it's not for everyone :-).

Good luck as you go to 15 mg. Are you going to taper down more before you jump? Are you still planning on using the patch? A new member, Lolajane, is using the Butrans patch, so you could check out her thread if you like.

Take good care OTB,
Elizabeth
Uuug! I'm toughing out 7.5 mgs for the day today, separating 18 hours between enductions, this is rough.

You are SO right about the AA,NA, thing providing structure, oddly enough, I was a BIG user of ALMOST anything, EXEPT for opiate, and methamphetamine...My intuition was super right as I was able to use copious amounts of halucinogens, when I was about 14, taking every 3 days for a summer, with what I consider to be possitive results concerning "thinking outside of the box" for work and daily life.

We were smart about it, we read a lot of Ken Kessey, Aldous Huxley, etc...and if you aren't careful with LSD, a bad trip can be 10 times more intense than WD, it's non addictive, and it teaches you humility, and coping skills when your reality is being challenged, like a forced WD or taper, if you can handle 5 doses of LSD 25, you can handle ANYTHING in life, lol!

Alcohol, and opiates are the things that DON'T demand respect and you can get into trouble really quick.

I don't think I'll live a "sober" life, but I certainly won't be drinking at home, around my kid, or taking another hallucinogen, unless I'm in a rainforest or something.

And I will NEVER touch an opiate again, and I suppose that is the lesson of WD, it is a deterant, and is so humbling, breaking down body and soul to your basic self. If you can learn to ENJOY your own company, and others, then you can live without opiates.
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Unread 01-08-2015, 09:54 AM   #78
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Thank you Elizabeth, it is great to see somebody actually using this product and what it REALY does, and in turn, I have studied it so much in preparation and during WD, that I have compiled more info than the average doctor on the subject, and I let Lolajane know where to find ALL the good info I found about it so you really did both of us a solid, in sharing her thread.

I might make it out without the patch but its there for an emergency, and a much better solution than Oxy.

Thanks for the support!
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Unread 01-08-2015, 10:36 AM   #79
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Wow! The sneezing is coming on like gangbusters! Lol, in a totally good way! I'm getting adrenalin rushes that aren't unpleasant for the first time in 10 days, I tried to research the sneezing phenomena while in opaite WD, and there's just nothing out there that I'm buying.

Personally, I think it's your respiratory system coming back on line to "real life" as opiodes are a respiratory suppressant, I am assuming I've cut down to a point where my dose no longer is enough to have an anelgesic affect the respiratory system.

Small victory! A real "physical" indication that my dose is becoming physically inadequate to "affect" my body...lol, never thought I would be so happy to see a symptom so prevalent, it happens each time a do a drastic drop, and only a few times, there is a really complicated rhythm to these symptoms, and once this is all done I can look back at symptoms and create a real timeline that indicated how far you have gone and how far to go.

10 days from 200mgs, to 7.5...the transition from 20 to 15 was hell, but the 7.5mgs every 18 hours is brilliant! Just the sneezing and the standard low fever( that comes and goes now, not constant.) that seem to be heightened.

No more OTC, meds, my body is going to have to figure it out on its own, and it's so nice knowing it will do most of it itself.

I think this is clearly the jump dose, averaging out to 12.5mgs, a day...This had ALWAYS troubled me, what is the "comfortable" dose to close the door.

Going any lower is adding to addictive ritualistic behaviour I think, like spousal abuse syndrome, going back for more of a bad thing, even though you know you are better off without it, a point has to come where it is behind you, with comfort.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 01:29 AM   #80
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Hey OTB,

You are doing great. Happy sneezing :-). You have come so far in such a short time. Doesn't seem like it would hurt to taper down to at least 7.5mg before you have the flushing party, but you have to do it the way you feel comfortable.

I'm glad Lolajane's thread was helpful. She's the first person I've heard of here that was using the patch to wean off opiates. Who knows - it may become the wave of the future. We so often see people inducted at high levels of bupe and it just makes for more side effects, when often a lower dose would have sufficed. My own doctor wanted me to start at 16mg for a 180mg oxycodone/day habit of 4 years. I'd been reading this forum for weeks before I started and instead started with 8. I think it made things much easier for me. Of course it all depends on what drug/how much/how long and everyone is different.

I was scared to death of hallucinogens and still am. I had a friend OD on LSD when I was in high school. She didn't die, but was hospitalized for a while. Anything that messes with your mind that much can't be good, no matter how "enlightening" the experience is. Just my opinion :-).

I like to write a bit and I was reminded of the writing I did when I used to get drunk. At the time I would think it was insightful and inspiring. In the morning, I would be shocked and disappointed to see that it was completely unreadable, lol. This was before I had a personal computer, (I'm really dating myself), so it was handwritten...

Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-09-2015, 05:41 AM   #81
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Hey OTB,

You are doing great. Happy sneezing :-). You have come so far in such a short time. Doesn't seem like it would hurt to taper down to at least 7.5mg before you have the flushing party, but you have to do it the way you feel comfortable.

I'm glad Lolajane's thread was helpful. She's the first person I've heard of here that was using the patch to wean off opiates. Who knows - it may become the wave of the future. We so often see people inducted at high levels of bupe and it just makes for more side effects, when often a lower dose would have sufficed. My own doctor wanted me to start at 16mg for a 180mg oxycodone/day habit of 4 years. I'd been reading this forum for weeks before I started and instead started with 8. I think it made things much easier for me. Of course it all depends on what drug/how much/how long and everyone is different.

I was scared to death of hallucinogens and still am. I had a friend OD on LSD when I was in high school. She didn't die, but was hospitalized for a while. Anything that messes with your mind that much can't be good, no matter how "enlightening" the experience is. Just my opinion :-).

I like to write a bit and I was reminded of the writing I did when I used to get drunk. At the time I would think it was insightful and inspiring. In the morning, I would be shocked and disappointed to see that it was completely unreadable, lol. This was before I had a personal computer, (I'm really dating myself), so it was handwritten...

Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Best,
Elizabeth

Thanks for the kind words Elizabeth, today I was struck down in absolute humility, this being my 4th day under 20, in having the 4th day CT withdrawal from the big cut.

Holy cow! I thought 200mgs, to 40mgs, was going to be the big battle, not so! Jumping from roughly 40mgs, daily (hard to keep track when you push out all your next doses by 12 hours) to 15mgs, would be a cake walk, so I'm now having some 4th day WD, AND coping with my body getting "back on line". In other words, I'm feeling pain again, albeit, no tears, NO craving, and that's the big part now, I really have NO desire to go backwards, and forwards is going to be a world of hurt, so I'm feeling "locked in" to pain right now.

Just venting, as frustration has set in after 12 days, I totally agree! Halucinogens are not for everybody, but they have shown to have very good results in mental trauma patients to learn coping mechanisms by "intensifying" whatever their real mental block is, and after it wears of they can objectively look at ways of dealing with the real issue, there is a whole profit free organization run by Dennis Mckenna, an ethnobotanist, that is continuing this research, how can something that causes such a profound experience be an accident of nature? They have now found that one of the ingredients in ayahuasca, DMT, is the chemical released upon dying, and is also activated when we dream, lots of strong willed people are taking this in controlled environment in an effort to see what happens after death.

Very heavy! Elizabeth, lol, my fascination with hallucinogens at the moment are only because it is the only measuring stick I have to compare with the "intensity" of WD, to be truthful, at the very worst of this I just tell myself, "you have pushed your consciousness to the very edge with LSD, and this is where it's going to pay off, look at this as a bad trip, and make a positive use out of that life experience to get through this"

It's a coping mechanism right now knowing the immense power of willpower, so I don't advocate hallucinogens, I'm just finding that's where I'm gathering my mental fortitude from, those intense experiences.

I am realizing opiates have ruined ALL of it for me, like you, I will have to stay away from all if it now, and rather than fright, I'm so happy to able to be the man my family knows and deserves.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 05:59 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliza12 View Post
Hey OTB,

You are doing great. Happy sneezing :-). You have come so far in such a short time. Doesn't seem like it would hurt to taper down to at least 7.5mg before you have the flushing party, but you have to do it the way you feel comfortable.

I'm glad Lolajane's thread was helpful. She's the first person I've heard of here that was using the patch to wean off opiates. Who knows - it may become the wave of the future. We so often see people inducted at high levels of bupe and it just makes for more side effects, when often a lower dose would have sufficed. My own doctor wanted me to start at 16mg for a 180mg oxycodone/day habit of 4 years. I'd been reading this forum for weeks before I started and instead started with 8. I think it made things much easier for me. Of course it all depends on what drug/how much/how long and everyone is different.

I was scared to death of hallucinogens and still am. I had a friend OD on LSD when I was in high school. She didn't die, but was hospitalized for a while. Anything that messes with your mind that much can't be good, no matter how "enlightening" the experience is. Just my opinion :-).

I like to write a bit and I was reminded of the writing I did when I used to get drunk. At the time I would think it was insightful and inspiring. In the morning, I would be shocked and disappointed to see that it was completely unreadable, lol. This was before I had a personal computer, (I'm really dating myself), so it was handwritten...

Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Best,
Elizabeth

Thanks for the kind words Elizabeth, today I was struck down in absolute humility, this being my 4th day under 20 mgs, I'm having the 4th day CT, WD feeling from the big cut.

Holy cow! I thought 200mgs, to 40mgs, was going to be the big battle, not so! Jumping from roughly 40mgs, daily (hard to keep track when you push out all your next doses by 12 hours) to 15mgs, would be a cake walk, so I'm now having some 4th day WD, AND coping with my body getting "back on line".

In other words, I'm feeling pain again, albeit, no tears, NO craving, and that's the big part now, I really have NO desire to go backwards, and forwards is going to be a world of hurt, so I'm feeling "locked in" to pain right now.

Just venting, as frustration has set in after 12 days.

I totally agree! Halucinogens are not for everybody, but they have shown to have very good results in mental trauma patients to learn coping mechanisms by "intensifying" whatever their real mental block is, and after it wears of they can objectively look at ways of dealing with the real issue, there is a whole profit free organization run by Dennis Mckenna, an ethnobotanist, that is continuing this research, how can something that causes such a profound experience be an accident of nature? They have now found that one of the ingredients in ayahuasca, DMT, is the chemical released upon dying, and is also activated when we dream, lots of strong willed people are taking this in a controlled environment in an effort to see what happens after death.

William S Burroughs, went to the Amazon, to take "ayahuuasca" to help quit his heroin addiction, and he lived to 83!

Very heavy! Elizabeth, lol, my fascination with hallucinogens at the moment are only because it is the only measuring stick I have to compare with the "intensity" of WD, to be truthful, at the very worst of this I just tell myself, "you have pushed your consciousness to the very edge with LSD, and this is where it's going to pay off, look at this as a bad trip, and make a positive use out of that life experience to get through this"

It's a coping mechanism right now knowing the immense power of willpower, so I don't advocate hallucinogens, I'm just finding that's where I'm gathering my mental fortitude from, those intense experiences.

I am realizing opiates have ruined ALL of it for me, like you, I will have to stay away from stimulants now.

And guess what? That's going to be perfectly ok, maybe I needed this to happen ONCE in my life to gather strength for all the good I will do to follow.

I've learned a very powerful tool in all of this, be careful of the mortal coil we inhabit, if you don't respect it, it won't respect you, or your consciousness, your spirit, or your souls; what ever that is, that special spark we all carry, it has to be respected.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 07:25 AM   #83
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, is the pain withdrawal pain or pain coming from your knee? I wonder if your taper is too fast and your endorphin production haven't caught up yet - are you able to exercise at all to help that? How's your sleep?

Just wanted to check in with you. If you need to slow it down a little and give your body a chance to catch up, don't consider it a setback, but a little fine-tuning in your process. I just hate to hear of you being in such pain.

Nancy
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Unread 01-09-2015, 09:38 AM   #84
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Hi Oxytarginbup#1, is the pain withdrawal pain or pain coming from your knee? I wonder if your taper is too fast and your endorphin production haven't caught up yet - are you able to exercise at all to help that? How's your sleep?

Just wanted to check in with you. If you need to slow it down a little and give your body a chance to catch up, don't consider it a setback, but a little fine-tuning in your process. I just hate to hear of you being in such pain.

Nancy
Awe! Thank you! Yes, I'm going pretty fast, but the pain is actually from my tooth, I'm pretty sure I have a "minor" cavity. Lol, I would imagine its probably been there for a little while, the fact I am noticing it now seems to say, my body is "on line" so I think my endorphins, are functioning at a respectable level.

I did a big cut 4 days ago, and anytime you make a cut, you pay for it 3-4 days later I am noticing. I am sleeping at least 6 hours a day, getting outside, handling it ok, just had a small freak out today, that's all.

I'm sticking to my guns, I have about 100 mgs, left and I'm spreading it thin just to have the pleasure of throwing away the last dose in a sort of symbolic way.

I'm at 10 mgs, every 18 hours, I had a chat with my aesthetician, and she said Targin, was designed to be able to take a 40 mg, every 24 hours, for 9 days, and stop, YES, the Naloxone DOES help the process apparently, so I'm WAY below what she recommends as a professional.

If I'm pushing 7.5 to 10 mgs, (it varies on how the pill gets cut, the pieces are getting close to crumb size) every 12-18 hours, if I keep up for another couple of days, I think I might only have 3 bad post jump days rather than 5.

I'm staying optimistic, you are right though, I'm not pushing any harder until a minor improvement. A lot of it is I completely discontinued OTC, and clonodine, with the intention of using them when I jump, so that is making me cranky but the liver needs time off from that stuff.

I'm just super cranky, 12 days without any real break had just got me mentally strained, I see a small improvement each day though.

Now I really want to get this done and fix my tooth...lol, what a way to find out you have a cavity!

Thanks again for your concern, I just needed a moment to vent a little, and it's smarter to come here to express distress, it helps me keep that kind of negativity from popping up when I'm around my son.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 11:28 AM   #85
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Well, well, well, I just found out that a doctors is prescribing 120 mgs, of Targin, to replace 90 mgs, of Oxycontin, sighting that the Naloxone, interferes with analgesic effects of Oxycodone.

The reason for the unabashed honesty was the patient had just had GI surgery and the anti constipation aspects of the Naloxone would benefit them, but that the part of Oxy, introduced during the half life of Naloxone, was largely expelled during first pass, basically you just piss it out with the Naloxone.

This Australian, Doctor seems to be ahead of the curve in how he approached oxycodone, and Naloxone, as in he told the truth based on blind trials, and studies done, I see no other reason why he upped their dose.

It seems that if Oxy, has a half life of 4 1/2 hours and Naloxone, 1/4 of that, that the doctor compensated in the prescription based on 25% less oxy with Naloxone, and gave the patient 120 mgs, of Targin, rather than the 90 mgs of Oxycontin, the patient was on before.

What a down write good doctor, it seems that USA doctors MUST know this as well, and are giving it to patients to reduce their oxy intake, the patient can't argue as the pill clearly states the oxy mg content, but doesn't say how much is lost in first pass, how crafty!

Hallelujah! What I thought was 40 mgs, was really like 28-35 mgs, depending on what is lost in first pass, no wonder everybody that is opiode tolerant that switched complains of lack of efficacy.

I'm glad I didn't know this, I'm not totally certain my doctor knows this (lol...he must :-), he's a smart guy) I'm going to call him on it when I go to get Arcoxia, and I'm sure we will have a good laugh.

It basically means everytime I have taken some during my taper, there is a built in 20-25% first pass reduction already! Lol! I'm so glad I chose this to taper from, because I have taken 20-25% less than I even thought!

I KNEW it couldn't be for constipation, it only has a half life of 12-84 minutes! How is that supposed to combat 22 to 23 hours the oxycodone is working, what a funny way to find out, from somebody worried that their doctor told them it should only be used "short term", it says NOTHING about Targin, being only a "short term" treatment in the pamphlet.

This was specifically designed to be undesirable and force patients to assess whether the side effects were less desirable than the efficacy of the product. I suppose it is never a bad thing to reduce a patients meds, heck, if someone is switched over to Targin at the same dose as Oxycontin, and they tolerate it, they have just reduced 20-25% of their intake.

That's really good actually,

Another thing, my thread is 2nd from the top if you type "Targin taper", on USA google, just above it is the Targin pdf panphlet, surely Purdue, would have tried to remove it if I have slandered the product, or made false allegations. They are big Pharma, and pay people to just see what is being said about their products and then they act accordingly.

I have made some pretty big claims or observations about this drug, and it's "off label" usage, I have backed it up with science but they are of course only assumptions as I am the only one in my own trial using this in an "off label" manner.

There is something going on, if my thread is second from top, and I only started posting 12 days ago, it means people are clicking on it because there is no other info out there, and I am providing alternative resolutions to this products characteristics.

I've made many suppositions in the beginning of my thread, all I knew at the beginning is I don't like it, it makes me want to take less, and it doesn't provide a "high"... All the reasons I had my doc give it to me.

Wow, if the doctors were just straight up honest, they might have more patients cueing up to take this to get off of Oxycodone, it makes me think they don't really want people to take this and they only made it to answer to the 680 million dollar lawsuit they paid out in 2007, for lying about the addictive aspect of Oxycontin.

Anyone that has read this far, thanks for your patience, I can only attest to my suspicions about this product based on personal experience, but I would LOVE big Pharma, to prove what I have observed from the beginning of USING this product to be wrong!

If I am right, this should be shared with the public, I'm sure some people would have gone this 3 week journey I am taking over having the long term commitment with Sub, if what I have had to discover on my own was offered up, people could go into a taper with this product with their eyes wide open.

A 12 day thread shouldn't be the best information out there about this product.
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Unread 01-09-2015, 09:19 PM   #86
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Hello again

Just wanted to voice some encouragement. You seem to be well read so I am going to assume you know that the brain will recoup much of what was lost. I dont mean brain cells but the "transmitters" that we "unbalanced" for lack of a deeper and more scientific explaination, will balance out again. While on opiates we flood the brain with dopamine and other transmitters. We therefore need to fuel up again and that takes time..We will be whole again but we tend to be an inpatient lot and want it "NOW!"
So my advice is to just keep believing "this too shall pass" and the blessed fact that indeed you will get better because I know you will.
I think back to my first time in a detox. I was coming off well over 300 mg of morphine (tablets not IV lol) and naturally wanted to die to end the hell I was in. I had a thought that nagged at me and it was "will I ever get over this or will I die feeling this way" All I wanted to hear was this and I needed to hear it over and over and it was simply-"You are going to be alright" For some reason I did not hear anyone tell me this even though I asked just about all the staff. I heard a lot of "reach for the phone before a pill" and other bumper sticker words of wisdom (not) a lot of advice about joining a 12 step group (I was active in one at the time and some 20 years sober) but no one just said "you will be alright" that is until nearing my last day when the doctor (a kind mensch) said "Oh Glen, of course you will be alright heck the days are getting warmer and you have the whole spring and summer before you" I felt so relieved and I believed him. He did foretell that my back pain may be a big issue which was right on. I did get a few years off all pain medications but as mentioned here by so many, back pain will cause you to do things you'd not usually do.

So with that said-"You are going to be well-just let the days pass"

Glen
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Unread 01-10-2015, 08:43 AM   #87
Oxytarginbup#1
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Originally Posted by theswan View Post
Hello again

Just wanted to voice some encouragement. You seem to be well read so I am going to assume you know that the brain will recoup much of what was lost. I dont mean brain cells but the "transmitters" that we "unbalanced" for lack of a deeper and more scientific explaination, will balance out again. While on opiates we flood the brain with dopamine and other transmitters. We therefore need to fuel up again and that takes time..We will be whole again but we tend to be an inpatient lot and want it "NOW!"
So my advice is to just keep believing "this too shall pass" and the blessed fact that indeed you will get better because I know you will.
I think back to my first time in a detox. I was coming off well over 300 mg of morphine (tablets not IV lol) and naturally wanted to die to end the hell I was in. I had a thought that nagged at me and it was "will I ever get over this or will I die feeling this way" All I wanted to hear was this and I needed to hear it over and over and it was simply-"You are going to be alright" For some reason I did not hear anyone tell me this even though I asked just about all the staff. I heard a lot of "reach for the phone before a pill" and other bumper sticker words of wisdom (not) a lot of advice about joining a 12 step group (I was active in one at the time and some 20 years sober) but no one just said "you will be alright" that is until nearing my last day when the doctor (a kind mensch) said "Oh Glen, of course you will be alright heck the days are getting warmer and you have the whole spring and summer before you" I felt so relieved and I believed him. He did foretell that my back pain may be a big issue which was right on. I did get a few years off all pain medications but as mentioned here by so many, back pain will cause you to do things you'd not usually do.

So with that said-"You are going to be well-just let the days pass"

Glen
Glen, thank you so much for the words of encouragement, I absolutely know its a physiological imbalance of too little endorphins, and way too much adrenalin. You are so right, even knowing the science of it, two weeks of punishment is wearing on my patience but not my resolve.

Just hearing "you're going to be ok" is super helpful, positive reenforcment is what I need, very few people know what's going on so I have to put up a pretty brave front.

"Looking California, but feeling Minnesota."

I have stopped ALL OTC'c, for 2 days now so I'm having the run to the washroom every 20 minutes syndrome. I am also now only taking 10 mgs, a day, and have replaced the evening dose with clonidine.

I am SO close to a final resolve that I'm pretty certain I am not going to have an unbearable 5 days when I jump.

My endorphins are definitely coming back on line, aches and pains, that I can manage, and overwhelming emotions, I just watched the newest Superman movie, and I couldn't hold back the tears, lol.

A constant need to stretch too, and then a big fuzzy feeling, I know that has to be endorphins.

Like the marathon is coming to an end, and I can almost see the Olympic stadium where you run 2 laps to a full stadium cheering you on, all I want is to see the stadium so to speak, to know this is close to over.

Reading all the SUB stories here has given me a lot of encouragement, I think the taper off SUB requires a big commitment, time, and resolve, what I'm doing should be easier in theory, if all these people tapered off of SUB, I can taper off the crap I am on.

I just know I'm going to take a 10mg, wait 24 hours, and at some point I'm just going to say "nope" I can handle this, I'm done.
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Unread 01-10-2015, 04:13 PM   #88
Oxytarginbup#1
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Phew...took 10 mg, about 20 hours ago, held strong and was lying in bed, and someone started shacking my shoulder, then I realized someone was shaking the bed, but no one was there, I thought it must be an earthquake.

Then I woke up, barely able to breath, still shaking, and tears in my eyes, I instantly bolted upright to see who was @&$@ing with me but there was nobody there.

It should be noted, this is the first time I've woken up without acute WD, I went downstairs to check with my partner and guests, who were having a social event if they were alright, expressing I had just been woken up by the earthquake or tremor.

I explained what happened and and they looked at me like I had lost my mind, there was no earthquake, no tremor, and nobody had been upstairs. So I broke out my Jungs "dream interpretations" wich I haven't looked at in well over a decade.

And sure enough, there it was:

http://www.dreamsymbolism.info/dream...ake-dreams.com

It should be noted, I didn't think I was asleep, and was actually watching a movie when this occurred, but I must have been asleep, and didn't even notice the shift from the dream to being awake, as the shaking continued upon waking, the reason I was so sure it was an earthquake.

I have abused my body and mind so intensely over the past 2 weeks I had some kind of a subconscious purge, and I MUST have been having sleep RLS to have been woken up and still having the sensation of being shook from a person or an earthquake.

I was certain it was "somebody" shaking me, and if I was polygraphed, it would show I was certain somebody was there.

So creepy! Incidentally, I was due for another 10 mgs, but I just don't need it at all, and it's so interesting what Jung had to say about the earthquake dreams:

- "sudden changes" (If an earthquake takes place then the face of the world has changed radically. Therefore an earthquake can represent major changes in your world.)
- "major upheaval" (Has there been chaos in your life recently? If so the dream represents that major upheaval and captures some exact thought in connection with it. )

That is 100% accurate to describe my state of body and mind, how amazing that certain themes and motifs are so central to all of us, that Jung, could make such an accurate blanket statement about the symbology.

After having 2 years in opiate induced cognition, this little episode felt more real than REAL, if that makes any sense at all.

I just wanted to post that while its fresh in my mind, has anyone else had similar profound dream events as sobriety kicked in? I'd be really interested to hear any stories, it has peaked my interest immensely.
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Unread 01-10-2015, 06:34 PM   #89
Eliza12
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Hi OTB,

That is so interesting about your dream. The interpretation seems right on, major shift in your life is right! It's great that you woke up without acute withdrawal symptoms too. How are you feeling now? I've had falling dreams (like off a cliff) where I would wake up suddenly right before the moment of impact. Not fun either. Your subconscious is working some things out, apparently :-).

Hope the rest of your day was good.

Best
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-11-2015, 07:09 AM   #90
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Hi OxyTarginbup#1, I was doing a little reading about the Perdue Pharma oxycodone/naloxone product Targiniq ER. Nowhere does it say it's for constipation. All the literature that I read says it's to deter abuse of it by crushing, injecting and snorting. Or for those for whom alternate options are inadequate.

This is from the Perdue press release:
http://www.purduepharma.com/news-med...e-tablets-cii/

“This milestone brings us closer to offering an important treatment option for the management of chronic pain,” said Gary L. Stiles, MD, Purdue Pharma’s Senior Vice President of Research and Development. “It also represents another step forward in our effort to develop an array of products that incorporate abuse-deterrent features.

Also interesting is that Targin is a Perdue product:
This product was first approved in Germany in 2006 under the brand name Targin® and is currently marketed in 32 countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, and Australia under the trade names Targin®, Targiniq®, and Targinact®.

I guess it's 'supplied by' different pharma companies in different countries.

This is from a Canadian site:
http://chealth.canoe.ca/drug_info_de...d_name_id=5531
How does Targin work? What will it do for me?
This combination medication contains two active ingredients: oxycodone and naloxone. Oxycodone belongs to the group of medications known as opioid analgesics (narcotic pain relievers). Naloxone belongs to a group of medications known as opiate antagonists and is used to lessen the constipation caused by oxycodone.


I find it so interesting that it's marketed totally different here. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with the lawsuits against Perdue here regarding OxyContin... (sarcasm there).

This link has some conversion charts, which I thought you might find interesting.
http://reference.medscape.com/drug/t...aloxone-999946

Your dream interpretation was really spot-on it seems! Plus it helped you in that you didn't need that dose.

In any event, hope you're having a good day!

Nancy
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Unread 01-11-2015, 10:15 AM   #91
Oxytarginbup#1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi OxyTarginbup#1, I was doing a little reading about the Perdue Pharma oxycodone/naloxone product Targiniq ER. Nowhere does it say it's for constipation. All the literature that I read says it's to deter abuse of it by crushing, injecting and snorting. Or for those for whom alternate options are inadequate.

This is from the Perdue press release:
http://www.purduepharma.com/news-med...e-tablets-cii/

“This milestone brings us closer to offering an important treatment option for the management of chronic pain,” said Gary L. Stiles, MD, Purdue Pharma’s Senior Vice President of Research and Development. “It also represents another step forward in our effort to develop an array of products that incorporate abuse-deterrent features.

Also interesting is that Targin is a Perdue product:
This product was first approved in Germany in 2006 under the brand name Targin® and is currently marketed in 32 countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, and Australia under the trade names Targin®, Targiniq®, and Targinact®.

I guess it's 'supplied by' different pharma companies in different countries.

This is from a Canadian site:
http://chealth.canoe.ca/drug_info_de...d_name_id=5531
How does Targin work? What will it do for me?
This combination medication contains two active ingredients: oxycodone and naloxone. Oxycodone belongs to the group of medications known as opioid analgesics (narcotic pain relievers). Naloxone belongs to a group of medications known as opiate antagonists and is used to lessen the constipation caused by oxycodone.


I find it so interesting that it's marketed totally different here. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with the lawsuits against Perdue here regarding OxyContin... (sarcasm there).

This link has some conversion charts, which I thought you might find interesting.
http://reference.medscape.com/drug/t...aloxone-999946

Your dream interpretation was really spot-on it seems! Plus it helped you in that you didn't need that dose.

In any event, hope you're having a good day!

Nancy
Nancy, I so appreciate that you did the research, although, possibly you didn't read the actual pamphlet that is enclosed:

"TARGIN tablets contain two different medicines called oxycodone hydrochloride and naloxone hydrochloride dihydrate. Oxycodone belongs to a group of medicines called opioid analgesics. Naloxone is a medicine which, when taken orally, can block some of the effects of opioids in the gut, such as constipation."

I promise you if you talk to a prescribing doctor that they will tow the medical line that the Naloxone, is for constipation. The above quote is directly from the pamphlet that is included with the medicine, but that's ok that you overlooked it, it's in small print, I chose this med for its non abusive aspect anyway.

Please, I do implore you to read further about Targin, and constipation, simply google it and the pamphlet info will shout out.

I totally get that you checked in on what I purported to be certain characteristics of Targin, but alas, wherever you got your information is contrary to the companies standpoint on the Naloxone, being there to avoid constipation.

That is the primary marketing point, that it is untamperable is the plus for me.

By the way, the earthquake was REAL:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/80389-...s-metro-manila

What a mind $&&$!

For the last time, please Nancy, type in Targin, and constipation, and you will be reeducated.
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Unread 01-11-2015, 10:38 AM   #92
Oxytarginbup#1
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Originally Posted by Eliza12 View Post
Hi OTB,

That is so interesting about your dream. The interpretation seems right on, major shift in your life is right! It's great that you woke up without acute withdrawal symptoms too. How are you feeling now? I've had falling dreams (like off a cliff) where I would wake up suddenly right before the moment of impact. Not fun either. Your subconscious is working some things out, apparently :-).

Hope the rest of your day was good.

Best
Elizabeth
Hey Elizabeth, amazingly... I was right! I was the only person sensitive enough to feel it apparently:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/80389-...s-metro-manila

I'm not sure if I feel vindicated, or disappointed to be truthful, I had kind of hoped it was a special moment for me. The fact I was the only one in our neibourhood to notice it is certainly strange though.

After all, it wasn't at all a dream, it DID happen, thank the stars above that even in my diminishes state, my instinct to protect my family was buzzing!

Last edited by Oxytarginbup#1; 01-11-2015 at 10:41 AM..
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Unread 01-11-2015, 11:22 AM   #93
Oxytarginbup#1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi OxyTarginbup#1, I was doing a little reading about the Perdue Pharma oxycodone/naloxone product Targiniq ER. Nowhere does it say it's for constipation. All the literature that I read says it's to deter abuse of it by crushing, injecting and snorting. Or for those for whom alternate options are inadequate.

This is from the Perdue press release:
http://www.purduepharma.com/news-med...e-tablets-cii/

“This milestone brings us closer to offering an important treatment option for the management of chronic pain,” said Gary L. Stiles, MD, Purdue Pharma’s Senior Vice President of Research and Development. “It also represents another step forward in our effort to develop an array of products that incorporate abuse-deterrent features.

Also interesting is that Targin is a Perdue product:
This product was first approved in Germany in 2006 under the brand name Targin® and is currently marketed in 32 countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, and Australia under the trade names Targin®, Targiniq®, and Targinact®.

I guess it's 'supplied by' different pharma companies in different countries.

This is from a Canadian site:
http://chealth.canoe.ca/drug_info_de...d_name_id=5531
How does Targin work? What will it do for me?
This combination medication contains two active ingredients: oxycodone and naloxone. Oxycodone belongs to the group of medications known as opioid analgesics (narcotic pain relievers). Naloxone belongs to a group of medications known as opiate antagonists and is used to lessen the constipation caused by oxycodone.


I find it so interesting that it's marketed totally different here. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with the lawsuits against Perdue here regarding OxyContin... (sarcasm there).

This link has some conversion charts, which I thought you might find interesting.
http://reference.medscape.com/drug/t...aloxone-999946

Your dream interpretation was really spot-on it seems! Plus it helped you in that you didn't need that dose.

In any event, hope you're having a good day!

Nancy
I have a feeling I was a bit hard on Nancy, anyone taking that much time to check things out really cares...but I am adamant about the misrepresentation of this product.

Nancy, I so appreciate that you did the research, although, possibly you didn't read the actual pamphlet that is enclosed:

"TARGIN tablets contain two different medicines called oxycodone hydrochloride and naloxone hydrochloride dihydrate. Oxycodone belongs to a group of medicines called opioid analgesics. Naloxone is a medicine which, when taken orally, can block some of the effects of opioids in the gut, such as constipation."

I promise you if you talk to a prescribing doctor that they will tow the medical line that the Naloxone, is for constipation. The above quote is directly from the pamphlet that is included with the medicine, but that's ok that you overlooked it, it's in small print, I chose this med for its non abusive aspect anyway.

Please, I do implore you to read further about Targin, and constipation, simply google it and the pamphlet info will shout out.

I totally get that you checked in on what I purported to be certain characteristics of Targin, but alas, wherever you got your information is contrary to the companies standpoint on the Naloxone, being there to avoid constipation.

That is the primary marketing point, that it is untamperable is the plus for me.

By the way, the earthquake was REAL:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/80389-...s-metro-manila

What a mind $&&$!

In closing, I can see you saw the unusual discrepancy to the pamphlet description of why the Naloxone, is there, compared to the REAL reason it's there:

Here are the clinical trials:

Clinical Trials
1. Study 3001: This 12-week, randomised, double-blind, parallel-group study in patients with non-malignant pain experiencing opioid-induced constipation, assessed constipation symptoms (as measured by the Bowel Function Index [BFI]) in patients taking TARGIN tablets compared with those taking oxycodone controlled release (CR) tablets. 272 patients were randomised to the double-blind phase (136 in each group), with the oxycodone dose between 20-50 mg/day. A secondary objective was to estimate the Average Pain over the last 24 hours (as measured by the Pain Intensity Scale) at each double-blind visit.
Patients in the TARGIN tablets group showed improved bowel function compared with those on oxycodone CR tablets from one week after the start of the double-blind phase (Visit 4), continuing until the end of the study (Visit 8). Statistical significance was seen by four weeks/Visit 6 (15.2; p<0.0001; CI -18.2 to -12.2). The mean pain intensity scores for Average Pain over the last 24 hours were comparable between the two groups, which was maintained until the end of the study with no significant treatment differences seen (0.014; 95% CI; -0.2026 to 0.2304). The safety profile of TARGIN tablets is consistent with those of other strong opioids.
2. Study 3006: This 12-week randomised, double-blind, parallel-group study, in patients with non-malignant pain experiencing opioid-induced constipation, also assessed constipation symptoms (measured by BFI) in patients taking TARGIN® tablets compared with those taking oxycodone CR tablets. 278 patients were randomised to the double-blind phase (130 on TARGIN® tablets, 135 on oxycodone CR tablets, 13 were excluded because of study questionnaire irregularities), and the oxycodone dose for each group was between 60 and 80 mg/day.

Short and simple, the company is 100% marketing this as a product to deal with constipation! IT IS THEIR HARD LINE! When it comes to why this product was formulated.

I firmly believe they created this product to "say" there is a non tamperable choice, but I can tell you, less than 10% of people switched over can tolerate the side effects.

Yes, I have complained about the side effects, it was the side effects that MADE ME CHOOSE THIS! I cannot reiterate this enough Nancy, I know the REAL properties of this med, it is intensly unfavorable, and hence why I picked it to wean down, it is so awful, it takes the guess work out of taking it.

I only take it when the WD sickness is too much, it's horrible properties have helped me taper.

BUT? What about people that need real pain relief? To put them though the negative effects of this drug, the effects (off label) I've been using to stop this drug seems like torture to a real pain sufferer.

In closing...I 100% asked my doctor for this knowing no human could tolerate this med long term. That is great for someone like me that is committed to get off.

But what about real pain sufferers, that are switched over?

Targin, NEVER states that this modification is promoted primarily for non abuse, it is the medical community standard that it is for constipation.

The standpoint aggravates my because they assume we are not if free will, and that we aren't allowed to know the REAL agenda behind this pill.

Guess what? I figured it out right away, any problems I'm having is because I picked this product, thinking it is quicker than SUB, and because I'm using it "off label".

I just think, if the company would be more honest about its "side effect" people desperate to get off Oxy, would be more inclined to try this than SUB.


I think my overall point is, ANYONE having a 2 week script of this will have no choice but to diminish, and that is wonderful for me that understood the properties.

Imagine thrusting this upon a person that was unawares? Just read my thread, I did this on purpose, for somebody that isn't expecting this, it could cause irrepreble damage.

I just want the company to admit what I know is the truth...

Nancy, it's no mistake that Naloxone, is used to save lives from opiate overdose, I think it's unconscionable that they say its for constipation.

They should come clean on the product pamphlet.
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Unread 01-11-2015, 12:40 PM   #94
Eliza12
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Hi OTB,

Oh that is funny! A real earthquake. I still think it WAS a special moment for you, as you were the only one that felt it. An awakening of sorts, symbolic of your taper off opiates. Hope you are feeling well today and taking good care of yourself.

It's very interesting how they are marketing the Targin and I agree with you, could really impact someone needing serious pain relief. At least in the US, there is such a backlash against pain medicine, I just hope those that really need it will not end up without it. Of course, maybe there will be a bigger push to develop pain medicine that is not habit-forming or detrimental when taken long term.

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 01-11-2015, 12:43 PM   #95
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Hi OxyTarginbup#1, I think that I wasn't exactly clear in my post. I was actually only comparing how the same medication is marketed here in the US. It's marketed as an abuse deterrent opioid pain medication - with barely a mention of it being for opioid-induced constipation.

Wherein in other countries, the main marketing thrust appears to be for the help with opioid induced constipation it seems.

This FDA Press Release about Targiniq ER amplifies that point. It's all about abuse deterrent with no mention constipation at all.
http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm406407.htm

Where this Australian Drug Pamphlet doesn't talk about the abuse deterrent and but talks about the naloxone helping with opioid-induced constipation.
http://secure.healthlinks.net.au/con...oduct=mfctargi

Again, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. That's really all I was comparing - the marketing of the same medication.

Nancy
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Unread 01-12-2015, 07:34 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi OxyTarginbup#1, I think that I wasn't exactly clear in my post. I was actually only comparing how the same medication is marketed here in the US. It's marketed as an abuse deterrent opioid pain medication - with barely a mention of it being for opioid-induced constipation.

Wherein in other countries, the main marketing thrust appears to be for the help with opioid induced constipation it seems.

This FDA Press Release about Targiniq ER amplifies that point. It's all about abuse deterrent with no mention constipation at all.
http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsro.../ucm406407.htm

Where this Australian Drug Pamphlet doesn't talk about the abuse deterrent and but talks about the naloxone helping with opioid-induced constipation.
http://secure.healthlinks.net.au/con...oduct=mfctargi

Again, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. That's really all I was comparing - the marketing of the same medication.

Nancy
Yes Nancy, sorry for being snippy...I have been having some degree if hypertension, 2 weeks now also without benzos, so that is probably stessing me out some. After I reread your post I see the level of sarcasm that you were espousing.

And that is super interesting how you caught how they are "marketing" it. It seems to be unethical in my eyes that only in areas where they have had legal trouble are they marketing it as "non abuse".

I am being pretty silly to complain about a product that has TRUELY helped me, a little part of me if trying to point blame, and I realize now its my own fault for taking Oxy, in the past, and believing that it was my doctor, prescribing me meds, from a legal company, and legal pharmacies, that its not really a problem.

Having read SO MANY other people's experiences, it seems we all tell ourselves the same lies, and I'm now in a stage where I'm taking full responsibility.

Why complain about a drug that I am dead set on stopping right? Time to move forward with my recovery and not dwell on the things in the past that I can't change.

Thank you so much for looking all of that stuff up, you might be able to see where my anger and frustration was coming from seeing as how they say its for different things in different countries, like people in other countries are different physiologically.

So silly, and frustrating trying to research something that they provide, not altogether conflicting, but certainly different standards of information. I am just so ready to stop dwelling on this.
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Unread 01-12-2015, 08:28 AM   #97
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So I just spoke to my Doctor, via SMS, he's good that way, chatting with me at 9pm, if I ever had questions, and he's pretty happy I've come this far, but he brought up a good point.

I have done this so drastically that I could suffer from PAWS, if I just cold turkey it, and he's suggesting to taper the last 15mg tolerance the same way I did the 200mgs to 40mgs.

He said not most but ALL his patients that CT from those huge amounts fall right back into the routine 3-6 weeks after the fact, and that it's far more sensible to stay at a tiny dose for a few weeks to comfortably taper and not deal with the possibility of PAWS, he would rather help me supervise the final resolution, and we would stick with non tamperables, and some very LOW doses of benzos. He stressed that benzo WD was very insidious and that since I discontinued these, it might trigger a false want for Oxy, so maybe an every second day, then every third day kind of thing at like 1mg.

So I might just tough it out for 3 days and if I'm snotty to people I might just do a 3-6 week taper from the 15mgs, he assured me I'm not alone, and that the last bit to nothing can be much harder than the initial massive drop, because it might take weeks and it would be sad if I was in his office weeks from now to script for something we both know I don't want anymore.

He didn't blast me for cutting the pills into quarters but he said the Targins, might have uneven distribution so one sliver could be 15mgs, and one 7.5mgs, even though they were the same size, and I have to admit some slivers seemed strong and others weak.

We are also going to look at some very good prescription NSAID's, to help stop the pain triggers, and that was a good point, apparently most opiod tolerant patients that discontinue use, will have a "trigger" from ANY pain, to crave opiods, and that will last for life! Wow, that's like permanent damage I've done to myself, that's so sad.

I'm actually feeling a bit relieved, he said he never would have brought me down that quick because there is a high incidence of relapse, but he did express his pleasure that I did it. I suppose good Doctors have a degree of passion for their opiode tolerant patients knowing at some point a taper had to come when you reach the max analgesic level your body will accept.

I'm just totally stunned that 10mgs, feels like what 150 mgs used to, in two weeks my body reset, I know when going through WD, it feels like an eternity, but in retrospect, that's remarkably quick, and I have a whole new respect for what my body does instinctively to protect me. I am taking great delight in rewarding it for its hard work by not polluting it anymore.

We will see, I might just try to go 5 days without seeing him to go through the worst of it so we can reassess my REAL needs, and not drug WD issues.
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Unread 01-12-2015, 08:57 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliza12 View Post
Hi OTB,

Oh that is funny! A real earthquake. I still think it WAS a special moment for you, as you were the only one that felt it. An awakening of sorts, symbolic of your taper off opiates. Hope you are feeling well today and taking good care of yourself.

It's very interesting how they are marketing the Targin and I agree with you, could really impact someone needing serious pain relief. At least in the US, there is such a backlash against pain medicine, I just hope those that really need it will not end up without it. Of course, maybe there will be a bigger push to develop pain medicine that is not habit-forming or detrimental when taken long term.

Best,
Elizabeth
That is it! The cycle of pain, need, and want. It can be so difficult to figure out your real needs once opioids, are in the mix.

Thankfully I've found something that is actually working at this point, Arcoxia , of all things, and oddly enough it doesn't have FDA, approval, but since I've sort of "reset" my body, it's doing what 50mgs, of oxy, used to without a high, and I only have to take it during "flare ups" so I can technically go weeks without it.

Funny, that Arcoxia, is illegal in the USA, but Oxycodone, is fine, Arcoxia, is only a strong NSAI, and it didn't get approval cause it can bring your blood pressure up just a bit.

What about the rise in blood pressure people get when they "DON'T" have their opiates? If I was in the USA, I could get Oxy, but not this NSAI, so telling how the drug companies and the FDA, are so closely tied.

If Arcoxia, was legal, there would be a lot of Rheumatic pain sufferers, able to switch over like I'm doing, but they won't approve it! I am blessed to have found an alternative, and I only used it 2 days in a row throughout this taper, and only one pill a day, a far cry from 200mgs, of Oxy, daily, whether I wanted it or not. Drug companies like products that you can't just stop once you have been on it for awhile.

The earthquake thing was pretty neat, and I was the only one to feel it, all our friends are looking at me like I have ESP, because NOBODY in our neighborhood noticed it, everyone said I was crazy, and the next day it was front page news.
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Unread 01-12-2015, 11:11 AM   #99
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Ok, even though I'm feeling very low, I'm now at doses under 10 mg Targin, since I was cutting up 40mgs, Targin, into 1/4's, and now 1/8ths, I just checked to see if its in 5mg form:


Targin 5 mg/2.5 mg is intended for dose titration with opioid therapy and individual dose adjustment.


So there it is! That's where I got myself to, and it's made specifically to taper off, being a large pill, with a strong matrix to assure a slow release. I really shouldn't have been chopping them into crumbs but it got me to the level that even the company recognizes isn't really effective for analgesic pain, but designed for titration.

I will try 5mgs, every 12 hours for 48 hours and see if I can just drop it.
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Unread 01-12-2015, 02:07 PM   #100
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Hi OTB,

I'm sorry you are feeling low today. Your taper from oxy has certainly not been easy. Maybe listen to your doctor and stretch it out a little longer? After all, it's not a race and you are very strong-minded, so WILL do it! He sounds wonderful, if only more people could have that level of compassion and concern from their doctors.

Try not to worry about having done permanent damage. I took oxy for 4 years and since being off suboxone, only think about taking ibuprofen or aspirin when I have pain now. You just set it in your mind that narcotics are not an option and after a while, that's your default. And as you said there are some good prescription NSAIDs too if needed.

I agree that when we have pain and are taking opiates, it's hard to tell the difference between need and want. For me, I think I concentrated on and exaggerated the pain (in my mind and to the doctor) I did have to justify taking more. Not to mention the WD symptoms if I did not take them. When my hands got better, I kept taking them at the same levels for over a year. Finally I realized and acknowledged that they were harming me and my life and got on Suboxone. I took sub for about 4 months and that worked well for me.

Anyway, just want to reiterate: be kind to yourself! You are going to be OK and if it takes a little while longer that is not a bad thing :-).

Feel better,
Elizabeth

Last edited by Eliza12; 01-12-2015 at 02:30 PM..
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