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Unread 11-06-2014, 07:23 PM   #1
sallykarima
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Default Baclofen side effects

Hi all, I am looking for peer support from people with experience of using Baclofen as a means of liberating themselves from alcohol addiction.
I am trying to pace myself - it has been tempting to go too quickly as I really want to be shot of this compulsion - but experiencing severe and unpleasant side-effects each time I crank up the dose beyond 3x30mg per day.
Although as far as I can see from the literature, Baclofen always works as a means of overcoming craving if a high enough dose is reached, I am starting to be concerned that i will never be able to achieve this due to extreme side effects. And of course am worried about their effect on my general health.
My GP has no experience of Baclofen used in this context, I so need some advice and support.
Do I just have to be patient?
Please, anyone who has been here, I would love to hear from you, positive and negative experiences, all or any advice welcome.
thanks!
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Unread 11-07-2014, 10:09 AM   #2
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Sallykarima,

HI and welcome. Unfortunately I have no experience with Baclofen to share with you but am glad to hear you are under a DR.'s care. Everyone's path to sobriety may be different but the goal is the same. I drank for most of my adult life and fortunately found my way here to this family which helped me to find and live a sober life. Please continue posting but most importantly don't give up on yourself.

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Unread 11-07-2014, 01:56 PM   #3
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sallykarima, Welcome to the site. I got sober through a support group & have no experience with Baclofen. We all can get sober different ways.

Srick around & share how you are doing.
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Unread 11-07-2014, 06:01 PM   #4
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Sally,

Eventually, Nancy B, our administrator, will see your thread and send you info that she has on Baclofen. I, too, know nothing about it. I took magnesium, kudzu, valerian, and melatonin to alleviate symptoms of withdrawal, but I DO NOT recommend them to anyone without doctor supervision.

After a year of connecting on this site, I finally went to a support group and got sober immediately. I just spent a lot of time planning and building my strength!

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Susie
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Unread 11-07-2014, 08:01 PM   #5
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Hi sallykarima, welcome. Baclofen is FDA approved as a muscle relaxer and has been used 'off-label' for alcohol dependence. There are studies that are completed, on going and recruiting, so it seems like an FDA approval for it could be in the works:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/result...&Search=Search

I really don't know too much about except that a doctor used it to successfully self treat his alcohol dependence.
http://www.amazon.com/Heal-Thyself-D.../dp/0374532206

Here's a fairly recent (2012) study conclusion link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540966/

Of interest is this "The average maximal dose of baclofen taken was 147mg/day."

Then there's a quick section on side effects:

"Side-effects

Eighty-eight percent of patients reported at least one undesirable side-effect that could possibly be attributable to baclofen. They were always benign. Side-effects, at one moment or another of the treatment, independent of their severity or duration, were the following: substantial fatigue/sleepiness 64%, insomnia 31%, dizziness 21%, paresthesia 18%, nausea/vomiting 17%, sensory alterations 16%, sexual changes (decrease or increase of libido) 15%, various forms of pain 20% (including headache 6%), bowel disorder (diarrhea, constipation) 12%, dysphoria 10%, weight loss 10%, memory loss 9%, hypomania (including one case of clear-cut mania) 7%, change in eating behavior 7%, weight gain 6%, sweat/hot flush 6%, tinnitus 6%, mental confusion 5%, cutaneous eruption 3%, respiratory difficulties 3%, sugar craving 3%, other 19% (which included irritability, transient amaurosis, photosensitization, urine incontinence, cramps, muscular contraction, muscular spasms, trembling, elocution difficulties, hypersialorrhea, water retention/edema, shouting, electric discharges, palpitations). No significant relationship was found between side-effects [globally or individually (when statistically valid)] and treatment response. No significant relationship was found between side-effects and the existence of a concomitant mental disorder."

That said, here are a couple of older threads where people spoke about it:

http://addictionsurvivors.org/vbulle...ad.php?t=29426
http://addictionsurvivors.org/vbulle...ad.php?t=23367

This is general information.
http://www.drugs.com/baclofen.html

I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

Nancy
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Unread 11-07-2014, 10:14 PM   #6
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Thanks Nancy B.

Susie
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Unread 11-11-2014, 07:24 AM   #7
sallykarima
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Default ongoing Baclofen side-effect story

I am slowly building up the dose of Baclofen - today started on 3x40mg per day, am hoping the side effects won't be as severe as last time (when I had to gradually bring back the dose to 3x25 per day before they subsided).
Main problems have been extreme sleepiness making it almost impossible to keep my eyes open (this goes if I can lie down and doze for 20 minutes or so) pain in the neck and joints of legs and feet on waking, at times an almost unbearably heavy feeling in the arms which again passes after an hour or so.
The euphoria has gone, as has (fortunately) the near-mania. As has my addiction to buying a daily paper (and doing the quick crossword) - after 3 times buying a paper and not opening it, I stopped bothering.
Unfortunately the same cannot be said for alcohol - although I am drinking half the amount I was previously, so I suppose that's progress!
The whole project is an exercise in patience and faith for me, having tried various other options in the last couple of years without success.
The Baclofen treatment has given me hope, I am also strengthening my Buddhist practice by trying to apply the teachings more in my daily life rather than just 'on the cushion'. This quote from the Kusala Sutta by the Buddha

'Abandon what is unskillful...One can abandon the unskillful. If it were not possible, I would not ask you to do so. If this abandoning of the unskillful would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of the unskillful brings benefit and happiness, therefore, I say, 'Abandon what is unskillful!'

I find this particularly helpful, and this morning stuck it on the (full) bottle of wine sitting in my cupboard.
thank you for reading this, any comments welcome - will keep you posted.
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Unread 11-14-2014, 12:53 PM   #8
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Sallykarima,

Glad to hear you have cut back on your alcohol intake. I was never able to just cut back. Overtime the drinking would increase to what it was. Eventually, by the age of 46 or so I got tired of being sick and tired and stopped for good.

I've been told that alcholics cannot cut back on their drinking and be ok. It is only a stop gap measure. Each path to sobriety is not the same. Keep working it, keep thinking sobriety. Make it the most important goal in your life because it truly was for me.

Peace,
Saint
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Unread 11-15-2014, 10:00 PM   #9
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I made a list of how alcohol had made my life unmanageable (not my own idea, suggested to me by a mentor) and read it every morning and every time I have an urge to drink. It, with the support of others, has helped me stay sober for 2 months!!! Quite an achievement for someone who has been drinking for 50 years.

As Saint already mentioned, there are many paths to sobriety. Religion is one of the strongest supports for many of us.

Keep writing.

Love, Susie
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Unread 11-19-2014, 08:43 PM   #10
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Sallykarima,

How are you? Curious to how you've been getting on the last few days. Hope all is well.

Regards,
Saint
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Unread 11-21-2014, 02:26 AM   #11
sallykarima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint View Post
Sallykarima,

How are you? Curious to how you've been getting on the last few days. Hope all is well.

Regards,
Saint
thanks for asking, Saint.
I've been struggling with side-effects - blocked nose, ticke
ly cough, overwhelming sleepiness (at tim
es - makes meditation a real struggle just not to keel over!) aching arms......... BUT on the plus side, the last two evenings have not drunk alcohol in spite of availablity in the house, and got up at 2 am this morning because of usual dry throat and cough, took a cough sweet and lo and behold, the mucous blockage which has been bothering me for weeks suddenly cleared.
So one way and another I feel liberated this morning and again hopeful that the Baclofen can work for me.
it' poison, though, i'm clearly very sensitive to it, and will be very glad if it has the desired result and i can cut down and eventually stop using it. And as far as I'm concerned, it's the lesser of two evils, alcohol, of course, used excessively is also poison!
So thanks again for keeping in touch, it means a lot to get peer encouragement on this lonely journey.
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Unread 11-21-2014, 03:51 AM   #12
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Sallykarima, hello. I couldn't sleep tonight and logged in to see that you had recently posted. I decided to read through your story. I loved the quote btw. Nothing bad can come from giving up our addictions. I didn't believe that at first though. With quitting came withdrawal and with that came the pain of self realization. That bitter moment when I had to face the monster that alcohol had created in me. But that pain served a purpose. It built a wall between myself and substance abuse. I knew that one drink would ruin everything I had worked for, and I would have to face all of that pain again. As you begin to walk through the first steps of sobriety, embrace the painful moments, reach out to others, use the moments of uncertainty to discover who you truly are. It takes a brave person to begin this journey, and you have done just that. I wish you the best, and keep us updated.

Michael
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Unread 11-21-2014, 11:46 AM   #13
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salllykarima, Tapering off alcohol never worked for me. I needed a support group of recovering alcoholics a sponsor to call if I wanted a drink.

We all have different approached to stop drinking. Good luck with yours.
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Unread 11-21-2014, 03:34 PM   #14
sallykarima
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Default responses baclofen side effects

thankyou to those who replied. As you said, we all have different ways to sobriety, but I so appreciate support from the community, even if it is 'well it's not my way, but good luck to you!'
Good luck to you all out there, too......we must support each other, it's such a lonely struggle otherwise...
so again, good luck, and love to you all.and thanks for your good wishes
xsallykarima
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Unread 11-28-2014, 10:23 AM   #15
sallykarima
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Hooray! Pills seem to be kicking in at last - no desire to drink for last 4 days, what a liberation!
Hopefully won't have to crank up the dose further (now on 3x40mg per day) which would be great. Still having trouble with mucous membranes (blocked nose and dry cough) and some pain in limbs and neck on waking but all negligible compared to what they were.
Keep your fingers crossed.
Will keep going on this dose - provided I don't start drinking again (in which case will increase it again until I stop) until the end of the year and then see what happens when I - slowly - cut down.
Getting plenty of support from my 'sangha' - Buddhist friends - but it would be nice to hear from you guys.
Hope you're all doing ok too!
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Unread 11-28-2014, 11:55 AM   #16
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sallykarima, Glad to see you are not drinking working your program. Think through that next urge.
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Unread 12-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #17
sallykarima
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still no 'urges' !!!
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Unread 12-03-2014, 08:20 PM   #18
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Sally, I am so glad that your treatment is working for you. Keep your head up, and have people on hand to reach out to if the urge should strike. You can do this, one day at a time.

Michael
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Unread 12-04-2014, 10:36 AM   #19
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Sally,

So glad you have a support network you can talk to. Sobriety is life changing. Sometimes there are challenges that bring on the urge to drink. If you are strong enough to quit, you are strong enough to face those challenges. We are all with you!

Susie
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Unread 12-05-2014, 06:50 AM   #20
sallykarima
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i think my 'urges' come abut more through habit (which started as an antidote to loneliness, but only exacerbated it) and genetic proclivity.
But of course i will be on my guard, and have a stash of pills to increase the dose if the desire to drink should return.
Today, though, I have started to reduce the dose by 5mg, am keen to get off the meds if at all possible and am confident at this moment that I will be fine without this prop.
Have built up enough positive support - friends, Buddhist practice, voluntary work etc, but also the confidence that something has changed in my brain and the desire to drink has gone - just as it did in the past for 8 years.
the trick will be if ever I get the urge again, not to get sucked back in!
Thanks to you all for your support and good luck on your journeys
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Unread 12-05-2014, 10:06 AM   #21
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Sounds great! Sounds like you have a good plan to keep your sobriety. Let us know if we can help.

Susie.
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Unread 12-05-2014, 12:46 PM   #22
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Sallykarima,
The urge will come, eventually. Think it through, think how much better your life is sober and know that it is that first drink that starts the roller coaster ride all over again. Sobriety is a way of life. Embrace it and enjoy all it has to offer.

Peace,
Saint
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Unread 12-05-2014, 03:59 PM   #23
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Good luck on your journey to sobriety Sallykarims!
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Unread 12-06-2014, 04:29 AM   #24
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appreciate this, Susie
xs
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Unread 12-06-2014, 04:31 AM   #25
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Well meaning, I'm sure, but I don't need a lecture thanks - I know all this.
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Unread 12-06-2014, 05:05 PM   #26
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Keep up the good work Sallykarima! Jenm
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Unread 12-08-2014, 12:04 PM   #27
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Sally,

Yes, Saint's reminder was well meaning. He and RLee are our consciences here. Read Saint's thread and RLee's thread about his journey and his son.

We all know what we have to do, but to have someone care enough to remind us is part of what makes us a family here.

We are all proud of what you have accomplished. It's just that many of us know the pitfalls of forgetting how we got here.

Please don't take offense at suggestions from others. They have experience to share. They don't mean to lecture.

Sending "good vibes" your way. Susie
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:03 AM   #28
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thanks for this, Susie.
I have been musing on why Saint's response provoked so much aversion on my part and think it is because it brought up a lot of my old negativity around AA and certain attitudes I felt to be prevalent in the groups I attended.
AA didn't work for me, but of course I am glad for all the thousands of people it did and does work for, just as I am also incredibly glad and grateful and relieved that I have found something which works for myself.
As far as Saint's 'well meaning reminder' goes, my antidote to the aversion in my meditation this morning has been to practise Buddhist 'Mudita' i.e, joy in another's happiness............and it works!
I read the words

'How wonderful you are in your being!
I delight that you are here!
I take pleasure in your good fortune!
May your happiness continue!'

wish I'd remembered this earlier - would have spared me the grumps!

here all going very well, still no desire to drink at all - two and a half weeks now, a record, and cutting down on the Baclofen, will be so glad to get THAT poison out of my body though I'm very glad and grateful to have been able to use it.
Thanks again for your openness, support and compassion. Much appreciated.
xsally
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Unread 12-09-2014, 12:23 PM   #29
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sally, I'm glad you looked to yourself to tried & find out why you responded to Saint's post.

With me there was so much more wrong with me than drinking. I had a major thinking problem.

Good luck.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:23 PM   #30
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Sally,

I get what you're saying about AA and how we sometiimes have to examine why we react the way we do.

When I first started to post here, I occasionally got hurt and/or defensive. I felt that the folks here didn't understand me and my unique situation. What I discovered was that although I may be unique, we have more commonalities than we do differences. I have learned so much from the folks here who have been at it longer than I.

I agree with RLee: I think I have a thinking problem. I think we all self-medicated.

I am impressed that you are willing to do some self-examination.

I think you're on the right road. We're glad to travel with you.

Susie
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Unread 12-09-2014, 06:30 PM   #31
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Good evening Sallykarima. Bright blessings to you.

My journey has meant that i haven't been able to catch up with you until now, but now i have, welcome to this family. It is a source of independence and freedom to all of us.

I haven't been able to take in all you have said, but the fact you have said it means you are half way there.

I live in Blighty. I have been an alcoholic all my my adult life and before. I am 48. About 10 years ago i became aware of a drug here called "Antabuse". If taken, no alcohol whatsoever could be taken. It meant that it was prescribed very rarely, as it could be fatal, i was prescribed it.

For those i had seen benefit from it, it seemed a "magic pill". You simply could not drink on it. The professionals would have none of it. They could not allow the "magic pill concept" to take hold. I agree.

I did all the right things. I attended a day program, tested everyday for a couple of months. Then prescribed. I was free....it was a magic pill....i had done it.

My left arm, (no alcohol at all) started to itch, then it started to "puff up", 1 hour later i was in A+E, a reaction to the anatabuse. I was beside myself...but...but...but i havent touched a drop!! I promise, promise! I made the nurse breathalise me so the report to those that had prescribed it, knew i hadnt been drinking.

I was allergic end of.

No, not "end of". The pill that works for others wouldnt work for me, goodness me, what now?

I have a pill that keeps my heart waving at me, a pill that keeps my blood allowing that to happen, a pill that allows bus drivers to go on their merry way whilst i am still smiling, i have a liquid pill that helps me eat, errrmmm, ohhh, and a big bubbly ball i put in the bath!!!, all of it helps me shut my front door behind me in the morning and face the world.

Meds help for sure, as described, sharing, letting go, finding that actually the foundations underneath us may be stronger than we thought is a marvelous place to be.

Sally there is a wonderful world of friendship and support around you. Thank you for reaching out.

Be peaceful and restful within yourself. Loveness to you Sally
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Unread 12-09-2014, 08:07 PM   #32
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SallyKarima,

I apologize if something I said, or the manner in which it was said made you react. My only intent is to help those struggling with addiction. I have been where you are to some extent and understand what you may be going through, having been there myself. I think of myself no better than anyone else here. Just one alcoholic talking to another.

You sound as if you are doing well and I hope that continues! I find it terribly important to be honest with myself, with my thoughts if I am to continue to stay sober. I use to bristle at the thought of being labeled an alcoholic and to some degree I am sure I still do. The mind being such a powerful influence over us, even at times we think it not so. Keep searching within yourself for the answers to a large extent can be found there.

So very happy you have found some inner peace.

Regards,
Saint
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Unread 12-12-2014, 03:25 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint View Post
SallyKarima,

I apologize if something I said, or the manner in which it was said made you react. My only intent is to help those struggling with addiction. I have been where you are to some extent and understand what you may be going through, having been there myself. I think of myself no better than anyone else here. Just one alcoholic talking to another.

You sound as if you are doing well and I hope that continues! I find it terribly important to be honest with myself, with my thoughts if I am to continue to stay sober. I use to bristle at the thought of being labeled an alcoholic and to some degree I am sure I still do. The mind being such a powerful influence over us, even at times we think it not so. Keep searching within yourself for the answers to a large extent can be found there.

So very happy you have found some inner peace.

Regards,
Saint
thanks for this, Saint, much appreciated
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Unread 12-12-2014, 09:19 AM   #34
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Sallykarima,

What a testament to how far you've come. I'm really proud of you! AA is different everywhere. I have made some really good friends over the years with AA. I live in a large midwest city, and there are tons of AA meetings all over the place everyday. I understand that AA does not work for everyone - I really get that! It is different in every meeting around this city in which I live. I have noticed that some groups get "clique" like and new people or those who don't seem to fit in are ignored. I have always tried to not be that person. However, way back when I very first tried to get sober, I attended some meetings and I didn't know a thing. People who I didn't even know wrapped their arms around me and told me "We have been there. We know what you are feeling." That meant so much to me!

I think there are so many ways to sobriety, and we all have our own path. In any meeting, or support group, or whatever, we need to take on what will be helpful to us and leave the rest. At the end of the day, drinking will kill us if we don't stop. This is my worry with my brother right now, that he cannot find a bottom, and he will die as he continues to drink. I am so glad that I found the light.

I think you are doing fantastic. I don't think any of us around here mean to hurt one another, and I don't even pretend to sugarcoat anything. If I can help one person from dying from this horrible disease, I'm not that worried if I have offended someone. This is a life or death thing, sometimes feelings are hurt, but that is the way it is. Please take care and continue to check in with us! Jenm
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Unread 12-12-2014, 09:55 AM   #35
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GM Sallykarima, best wishes and support to you.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 06:05 AM   #36
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thankyou for this kind message, Jenm!
I feel I am slowly being slowly enfolded in the embrace of this brotherhood/sisterhood forum!
Here's the latest update: my drinking reduced radically from around 11 October and have not drunk at all since 24 November. Effortless. The pills were working! However, they are very powerful and the side-effects continued to be most unpleasant so I decided to cautiously reduce the dose, and have been doing so until on 10 Dec - having reduced the dose from 3x40 mg per day to 3x1.5mg per day I had a two-day migraine and vomiting attack and couldn't even hold down water, let alone pills. Talk about cold turkey! I felt as if I'd been run over by a bus and spent two days flat on my back. all is well again now although I am still getting some weird withdrawal symptoms (hallucinations at night! takes me back to my hippie days, but I'd rather sleep, frankly....but good meditation practice!) No cravings have returned, it is as if the needle which has been stuck in the groove of an old-style LP and was just going round and round the same old loop has at last moved on.
I still have a large supply of Baclofen but frankly would prefer not to have to take it again as it is SO powerful (and of course would prefer not to need to have to take it!) but a friend who worked for years in D&A here in the UK was telling me yesterday there is a drug called Acamprosate which her organisation used to prescribe to people after detox to reduce cravings. anyone have any experience with this?
Of course ideally I'd like to do it all without pills but I wasn't getting anywhere except beating myself up and this is progress of a sort.
The last time I stopped - from one day to the next, when I woke up one morning and thought 'I don't want to do this anymore' (so more Grace than Effort) I was dry for 8 years without a blip. Now I know I must NEVER be tempted to start again, as far as that goes, I agree with Saint totally.
In the meantime it's a lonely road, I bash on, and this does feel like progress, so thank you guys, once again, for all your support.
And I'm sorry about your brother, Jenm, it's almost harder to see a loved one suffer than to suffer oneself, isn't it? But he has to WANT to stop. Ha! I can't tell you anything about that, can I.
Meteor shower tonight!
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Unread 12-13-2014, 12:02 PM   #37
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Good on, Sally. One step at a time. Susie
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Unread 12-13-2014, 03:44 PM   #38
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Sally, I'm glad you have no cravings for alcohol.

This does not have to be a lonely journey. Continue to share what is going on.
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Unread 12-13-2014, 06:01 PM   #39
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thanks, R Lee - just made myself a cup of cocoa - nice and cosy and feels so much better than what I'd have been sipping a few weeks ago!
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Unread 12-19-2014, 05:39 AM   #40
sallykarima
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It's now 9 days since I stopped taking the Baclofen, and just under 4 weeks since I last had a drink.
still no desire to do so, and I'm happy to report that the side-effects of the Baclofen seem to be gone at last too.
I do notice a tendency to want to eat chocolate (a lot!) so am monitoring this closely!
Happy Christmas to you all, may this coming year bring inspiration, energy and Joy!
xsally
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Unread 12-19-2014, 09:12 AM   #41
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way to go Sally, yes the sweet tooth does arise, but it's better to be sober, Happy Holidays! and best wishes to you.
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Unread 12-19-2014, 11:32 AM   #42
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Sally, Yes sweets are a favorite of recovering alcoholics. It has something to do with replacing the sugar we consumed drinking alcohol.

Congratulations you are doing very well.
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Unread 12-19-2014, 01:08 PM   #43
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Chocolate graham crackers are my new drug of choice! Good job...

Love, Susie
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Unread 12-19-2014, 01:54 PM   #44
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I love chocolate and I probably eat it every single day. It's ok! Be kind to yourself. We have done a lot of damage to ourselves physically by putting alcohol in our bodies. It takes awhile for our bodies (and brains) to get used to the new way of living. I promise you though, though it takes time, it ALWAYS gets better. I am so very proud of you for not taking a drink for 4 weeks! That is a big deal. Take care! Jenm
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Unread 12-19-2014, 03:20 PM   #45
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Good evening Sally. Bright blessings to you.

Through circumstance i am on "catch up!", but 4 weeks sober represents a change in your life that you have instigated. It is your achievement, and now, for all the ups and downs, you know you can do it. We may not know each other well, but whether i know an alcoholic for a lifetime or a day, when they chose to become sober, it fills me with pride because i know what it takes. I feel it is important to share that pride, because the effort is all yours, it will give you strength.

Sweeties? I am lucky i live by myself. I have an arrangement of sweeties next to my bed...how do i live with myself?....i have a bottle of water there to, makes the whole thing acceptable!

Well done Sally. Onwards and upwards.

Be peaceful and be gentle. Loveness to you Sally.
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Unread 12-20-2014, 08:55 AM   #46
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Congrats on the 4 weeks! Wooohooo!! You are on the road called sobriety. As you may know, a bit of dark chocolate a day is supposedly healthy for you. The sweet tooth. Yes it strikes me as well. I indulge it occasionally .... : )

Keep thinking sobriety, think through that first drink.

Peace,
Saint
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Unread 12-28-2014, 06:29 PM   #47
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thank you all for your kind comments since my last post.
Christmas and its excesses has been and gone and I enjoyed sharing hot spiced apple juice with my family (although they were on the wine most of the time!). Still no desire to drink, just such relief that the compulsion has gone.
What a blessing to start the new year!
My body and mind are indeed still adjusting, the effects of the Baclofen weren't all negative - I had loads of energy and needed little sleep, but slept easily. Now I'm having trouble sleeping once I wake up in the night, which is annoying, but hopefully it will even itself out in the end. And I miss that crazy energy, but hey, it's always better than being under the influence!
Wishing you all the very best for 2015, let's make it the greatest year yet.
xsally
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Unread 12-28-2014, 10:07 PM   #48
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I'm so happy to hear that you have not has the urge to drink Sally!
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Unread 03-09-2015, 06:10 PM   #49
sallykarima
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Default Baclofen side effects

A last update in case anybody still looks at this thread:
it is now nearly 4 months since I stopped drinking alcohol with the help of the drug Baclofen.
Since 10 December 2014 I have not taken this medication either.
I am happy to say that this solution was the one which worked for me, though the side effects were pretty horrible at times.

I want to thank you all once again for your support, and wish you all the very best for the future.
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Unread 03-09-2015, 06:14 PM   #50
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way to go Sally, best wishes.
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