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Unread 12-16-2014, 04:46 PM   #1
gotoffmdone
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Default Six Days in Hell

Well this past August I found out my back was TOO bad for surgery to do anything but make me the invalid I will end up being anyway and, then, I will have surgery when that time comes to, hopefully, ease the pain.

In September both my Suboxone Dr and spine surgeon recommended and referred me to a pain clinic. I fell in to the trap of thinking that after ten yrs on Methadone then eight on Sub I could take pain meds. Opiate pain meds.
So off I go to one hell of a pill mill whose is no doubt addicting hundreds of unsuspecting "patients". From what I could tell the avg age of people getting doses of Opana and Oxycodone for breakthrough pain was in the 30's.

That's neither here nor there. I stopped taking Sub in Sept and it took almost 30 days for me to test clean of that opiate. I have a hard time understanding why a Dr would put someone on full agonist when their mu receptor has about 5% of its area to work with. But I have an even harder time understanding why in the hell I presumed I would be ok taking what is clearly poison to me. Pain, constant pain, makes you crazy stupid. For four months I gave it my best shot only to realize, once again, I was out-gunned.

A week ago today I tossed my bottle in the garbage in total frustration at the idiocy of what I done to myself. So I stopped cold turkey. After ten yrs of methadone followed by eight yrs of Suboxone it seemed as if those drugs and the pain meds I have taken were all coming out of me at once. Well my self imposed, unaided detox has been pure hell but I feel the end is near. And when I say the end is near I mean for all opiates and, yes, Sub is included in that. I heard the expression in AA or NA, one of those friggen places, that "we are sick and tired of being sick and tired". I have grown sick and tired of all opiates. It has taken me thirty years to get to this point but I do believe it was bound to happen.

The proof that I feel the six days in, or of, hell is coming to a conclusion is that I can even sit here and type this. Once an addict always an addict. I am a believer. I have no choice in having the disease of addiction except for triggering it with that first pill. But I have a choice now as to whether I want to be a junkie or chained to any opiate. Sub is a great drug for treating this disease but I do prefer to be non dependent. And for the fist time in eight yrs there is no opiate in my system. My family Dr and former sub DR is calling me in some Clonidine and Valium.

wayne

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Unread 12-16-2014, 07:17 PM   #2
Eliza12
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Hi Wayne,

Congratulations on getting off opiates altogether! It's been a long road for you with your back pain. Good that you will have some comfort meds to help you. How is your pain level now? I found that my hand pain is actually lessened after getting off oxycodone, with the help of suboxone. I was on it for 4 years. After the first couple of years, I don't think it was really doing anything except messing with my head and giving me side effects.

Good luck, hope you feel better every day. Keep posting for support!

Best,
Elizabeth
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Unread 12-16-2014, 07:37 PM   #3
NancyB
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Hi Wayne, I am so sorry that there's nothing to be done for your back. That's good that you're at the end of the withdrawals.

Has either doctor offered any non-narcotic options for your pain?

Nancy
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Unread 12-16-2014, 08:57 PM   #4
maxxx
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Default Six Days in Hell

Goto,
im fairly new to this forum, however i have done a.ot of reading here. You hace been around a loug time and
i just wanted to say i think you are so right.
When the time comes, someday, we all can stop. When a enough is enough. I find it uplifting that after all this time and the amount of opiates that ypu are indeed here typing and teaching that this can be done, when the time is right..
I used to think id would be a lifer on Buprenorphine, but lately the thoughts of stopping keep coming.This after 4 years. We ll see...
Thanks for shairing and best of luck to you..

max
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Unread 12-16-2014, 11:07 PM   #5
gotoffmdone
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No pain unless I umpire then it comes on like gang busters. Pain will not kill me but opiates is suicide one pill at a time. I am taking Motrin and that will be my lot. When the time comes to have surgery how long that may be, hopefully any narcotics I may need immediately after surgery will find a home in my brain. That will only happen if I stop ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL opiates. Leaving the hospital with a script will be a huge no no.

wayne

BTW The comfort meds have made me feel worse. I slept for two whole hrs only to wake up feeling as though I have been set back a day or so, so Valium in the can. My Sub Dr had me on 10mgs of Valium for four years to use as a muscle relaxer for my back. I am coming off that drug as well and screw the weening however dangerous.

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Unread 12-17-2014, 07:35 AM   #6
NancyB
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Hi Wayne, that's encouraging that there isn't pain unless you umpire. But, yikes, when you umpire, you're umpiring all day and night sometimes. Is there any type of support or compression or anything that will lessen it any at all when you umpire?

Please please be very aware of what's going on with your body jumping off of valium like that. Especially after 4 years.

Is the Clonidine helping at all?

Nancy
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Unread 12-17-2014, 08:41 AM   #7
gotoffmdone
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Nancy

The Valium is not going to be a problem. I hate that drug and would always go at least a week each month without it. I was weaning before this wd episode. I have no idea if they are correlated but the 2 Clonidine since yesterday and my stomach burns like hell. I just fixed myself a couple of eggs and a piece of dry toast. The wife is sleeping so thankfully someone in here can.

My family Dr was going to re-induct me this morning but I told him he would not be doing me any favors at this point. I would give anything if last time I went off Sub I had never gotten back on it. And now the full agonist again while still on Sub. What were the chances of that being successful! I give it a zero chance but was too foolish too realize it. This is it, and let this be a cautionary tale for anyone who cannot handle opiates. Do not wait 30 yrs to get it together. Self mutilation. The human body is amazing and can recover. I keep telling myself wds are part of the healing process and God knows there is only up from here. But the older you get the harder it is to recover from any illness.

One of the worst part of wds is family goes through them with you.

Over three thousand posts. Rediculus


wayne

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Unread 12-17-2014, 09:08 AM   #8
gotoffmdone
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Oh yeah. My testosterone levels were checked at that pain clinic. Opiates has turned me into a female. My testosterone was 81 my estrogen 33. I have been put on the injections of testosterone cyprionate but I have to give them to myself and I have never even drawn up any substance into a syringe. This stuff is oil base and I am having a hell of a time not wasting it trying to draw it up. The injections into my thigh doesn't hurt especially when I use the leg that is numb. I am leery of this because you need to be on a good exercise regiment and my back prevents that from happening. Hopefully walking will be enough or I may have to go to the YMCA and swim. I also have a torn rotator cuff but three surgeries after playing college baseball is enough.

My biggest concern with this testosterone is it turning into estrogen but one would think at 81 level it would not convert to estrogen all that readily. If anyone has any experience with this I need to hear it. I will get my phone number to you somehow if we have to hack into this site. Just kidding Tim I can barely find this site.

I am not sure if I should be injecting during these wds but it is suppose to make you feel better-in theory so far

wayne

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Unread 12-17-2014, 10:44 AM   #9
gotoffmdone
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nm talked with my pharmacist

wayne
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Unread 12-17-2014, 08:37 PM   #10
gotoffmdone
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Been a week going on day eight and am in total disgust with all opiates the biggest problem at this point is dwelling on what brought me here i, e, the decisions I made. Do not like counseling they just stare at the clock. Prefer a pastor. We'll see keep you posted. Thank you for all you kind words for those that replied. Will post back when my old record of being clean is broken unless someone wants a response

wayne
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Unread 12-17-2014, 09:06 PM   #11
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Hi Wayne, it's a relief to hear that the valium won't be a problem. Why did the doctor want to re-induct you after all that?? More of a rhetorical question than anything. lol

I think that's a great idea about going to a Pastor. Do you attend a church or is there one nearby you can give them a call? Hopefully it will help you. I know, after all these years here, how much those decisions have weighed your mind down.

I'd like to know how you're doing, when you feel like writing.

Nancy
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Unread 12-17-2014, 10:55 PM   #12
gotoffmdone
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Nancy your question confounds me about are there churches here. I am in the republican Bible belt of Tenn all there are here are churches and assholes.

wayne
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Unread 12-18-2014, 06:55 AM   #13
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Hi Wayne, so true about being in the Bible Belt, but I guess I should have clarified - is there a church in particular nearby that you would even think of calling? Because sometimes some of those assholes are in some of those churches.

Nancy
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Unread 12-18-2014, 08:41 AM   #14
gotoffmdone
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So true!!!

I know you are Agnostic about all this but I hope I am led by some force out there beyond the stars to find someone. Its worked before if I prayed about it. BTW what exactly is an Agnostic. Is it even in Webster's LOL

I will tell you one thing when I get past this I am going to be on a mission or Crusade. I am sick and tired of the f'ing medical profession and the MD's or DO's who do Suboxone tx.

I had a conversation once with my DR. I ask him if a person who had smoked their entire life came into his office for tx and had either or all of COPD, clogged arteries, heart disease basically you name it, would he take their insurance. Yes because it is a medical problem he said. I asked him if being treated for the AMA recognized disease of addiction was not medical then why could I not get Suboxone at the local health food store.

And second hand smoke is worse. At least you can't get second hand drunk or high or have second hand sex(well I suppose that one depends on one's definition)

These Sub Drs have found a way to get wealthier off the backs of folks like us because they are not stupid. They know we would not wait two hrs to eat at Shoney's but will wait and pay cash out the nose to stop or avoid wds. Do you think if the patient limit was raised and they had more volume they would lower their price. NOPE. They would mainline a dollar if they could and get high as a kite. Boy this pisses me off the more I think about it. I am saving money by being clean. It is time for me to pay to put op-ed's{sp?) in the news papers from here to Chattanooga. Call it : American Greed-Pain Clinics and Suboxone Doctors. It irritates the hell out of me that a lot of people are locked out of the tx process because they do not have the finances. I wish medicine was socialized. The quality would not suffer in my experience and for sure my wife's who lay in an ER for four hrs with a bleeding brain aneurysm was spilling blood into her brain. The ER DR had them to draw blood. He said she was fine and released her.

Forty five minutes later she threw up at home and was almost dead breathing six times a minute and totally unresponsive with fixed and dilated pupils which did not respond to light stimuli. I called an ambulance. Those fools said before even looking at her that it was good she had the stroke and we got to her this quick. I had to tell them to shine their light in her eyes. They did and grabbed her and took off. She was flown to a trauma center and given virtually no chance to live. She was on life support. The first ER DR we went to who was a useless piece of shit found out he had screwed up big time. He even called the hospital and ask for me. He apologized and said we were good people. I could have been a serial killer. When my wife was in his care, so to speak, I may have seen his ass once for one minute for him to tell her lab-work was ok. He then made this statement. He said we get a lot of drug seekers here. I said are you telling me that you thought my wife(wasn't at that time) was faking a headache just to get pain medicine. She was throwing up, had a massive headache and seizures before the ambulance was called. All that happen at the dentist office.

Biggest regret not suing. One CT of the head and she would not be permanently disabled to this day. Drs are supposed to be in the profession of healing not making moral judgments.

wayne

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Unread 12-19-2014, 05:19 AM   #15
gotoffmdone
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Well wds are pretty much at an end. I am living proof that withdrawing from opiates will not kill you. You may feel as though you would want to die in the midst of them. The worst and hardest part in my opinion is to try and stay moving and that requires hydration. When the body's fluid is coming out both ends for days on end remaining hydrated may be the most difficult part.

I took a walk today and just for the heck of it I thought I would give myself a field sobriety test. Now mind you there is nothing in my system except for less than a therapeutic dose of Valium, a boat load of vitamin B and vitamin D plus I have drank two huge bottles of Gatorade(raised blood sugar). Pedialyte would probably have been better but I did not feel like going to the store. Well I tried walking heel to toe and made it two steps. Being a bit weak and light headed it is no wonder I made it back home much less pass a field sobriety test.

I am at the phase now of recovering from withdrawals. Sleep is coming and that has always been the last thing to get better. I haven't thrown up in days, and the other end seems to have stopped flowing as well. Very important as to what I eat. Small frequent non greasy meals is the order of the day at least for now. It is a MUST to let your body be your guide because at the early stages of wds it is easy to set yourself back physically. Physical wds are virtually the same for everyone it is just a matter of degree. If you are younger you may be able to recover more quickly. The amount and type of opiates play a huge role in the wd syndrome. The synthetic long acting opiates such as Methadone and Suboxone have a lingering effect. Suboxone wds are not all that bad physically but wreak havoc mentally. Methadone wds are to fear the most. As far as the opiates I have been on the past four months, which are the full agonist short acting kind, are the quickest to recover from physically. It has helped me significantly to have been Suboxone free for four months. I do not feel the depression so much that has been the hallmark of Sub wds.

I am speaking strictly about my physical condition of which I believe we all understand on some level. As far as what goes on in the mind and spirit that is where we all part ways and have our own personal demons to deal with.

I have four grandkids coming up for the holidays in a couple days. That has been the incentive for me stopping and getting through the wds. There is no way I would or could deal with kids while in the midst of wds. Whatever works.

Have a great holiday,
wayne
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Unread 12-19-2014, 06:58 AM   #16
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Hi Wayne, good to hear the wds are pretty much done. If you feel like going out at all, maybe some Ensure drinks might help you - to supplement the small meals you're eating now. I was thrilled to read you slept! That has been an issue for years. I hope when you said that you meant for more than an hour... I hope you can eat normally soon to get your strength back.

Here you go. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic lol Is there any religious denomination you leans towards as far as finding a pastor? I had friends who were involved in the Unitarian Church and had gone to a few services there when one of them was playing classical piano. I have to tell you, those were the nicest services. More of a community and very open to anyone who went. Might be something to check out if there is even one near you.

Whatever works is right. Have a great time with the grandkids. Happy holidays to you too Wayne.

Nancy
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Unread 12-19-2014, 07:33 AM   #17
gotoffmdone
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Nancy you could put a blindfold on me and lead me into a church. I could tell you just from listening what denomination I was in. They all have their dogma, man-made dogma that is, which sometimes seems to mimic a cultist type behavior. But to answer your question I was southern Baptist which should come to no surprise. Maybe still am. I grew up a block from Second Baptist church in Clinton Tn. My parents took me my entire childhood and I continued from there. Funny but I truly believe had that been a Catholic church I would be Catholic. Pretty much what demonization you end up going to has a lot to do with how you were raised and tradition. I went to a Church of Christ once and wow. They believe the only music should come from the human voice. I cannot play a single musical instrument and the voice is no exception.

Nancy my degree is in Chemistry/Statistics not English. If you write an op-ed will they do the editing?

wayne

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Unread 12-19-2014, 03:51 PM   #18
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Hi Wayne, maybe you should take a look at some Southern Baptist churches near you. See if any of them click as far as what the Pastor is like. I've never been to a Church of Christ service. Interesting that they don't want anything music from instruments other than the voice. Maybe it saves money and they don't have to buy one of those giant organs?

This is pretty interesting. It's a website about Op-Eds. Mostly the bottom Resource section. I think what you send the publication is what they print - no editing. I'm not sure if they would if you contacted them asked though.

http://www.theopedproject.org/index....d=57&Itemid=63

Nancy
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Unread 12-20-2014, 09:53 PM   #19
gotoffmdone
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went to er at 3an for iv fluids, toradol shot and sleep aids

wayne
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Unread 12-21-2014, 09:46 AM   #20
gotoffmdone
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Please do not take opiates longer than necessary and when you do take them make sure the pain is physical and that you are not covering over some bad trauma or emotion. When taken for purely physical pain the chances of becoming dependent are good but you may mot one of those who become addicted. Covering emotional pain will cause you neither move forward or past and you will just pill on today.

I know beyond a shadow of doubt some will not like this at all, but I come at this from decades of experience and not academia. Being a statistics major I get the studies they perform , the way the perform randomize double blind studies or single blind. Then they analyze the data and based on sample size they will set confidence intervals as to how confident they are in accepting their Null Hypotheses or reject it in favor of the alternative.

There is always the risk with any drug that comes out of the trial phase then applied to the populist. I am a bit on the fence about Sub. Methadone I have long since knew which side of that fence I was on.

Early on in my induction with sub, it had not been approved in the states very long. I was told it was fairly benign drug that once I stopped that would be that. Sub is not that easy to come off of. I can't tell if I preferred it as a detox tool only, of for someone to be dependent on it the rest of their lives. This one has always been a very tough one for me. I am somewhat torn. Don't think for second long term use makes it harder to wean. I have never been one to wean, as it is all or nothing.

This is not a pro Sub or anti sub statement. I am just comparing my personal use with what people read in some literature where statistics seems to prove their point.

I can tell you statistics prove nothing. It gathers and analyzes data as evidence not the truth. When done correctly the evidence will point one way or another but it is not proof beyond doubt. Stats is an amazing tool for organizing data. I guess the best example is leading up to elections. Folks constantly do polling to see which candidate is leading. Those done in small sample sizes. A sample hopes to mimic the population as w hole but it is impractical to call everyone. So small numerous sample have to estimate the whole. Now on election day they may as well toss their sample results in the toilet. The day of election we have what is known as a Consensus. That is the ultimate pool. Stat hounds can analyze the date to see where they may have been right and wrong.

One can get very confident that the results of their study have great statistical significance. You can minimize both Type I and Type 2 errors by increasing sample size. Else you can have a margin of error plus or minus 5 percent.

I think the same can be said for sub after all these years. I know bupe advocates on this board stress highly the long term use of this drug. They liken it to diabetes and taking meds for that. I take a diabetes drug but when my sugar starts running good on its own due to eating right and exercise(it was 102 this am) then putting that drug down will be no problem at all. I am just thinking out load here but sometimes I cannot help but think some cures are worse than the illness. Methadone for sure is. I am still on the fence about long term Sub use.

If your goal is to not feel then 30 yrs will go in a flash. I do not wish for anyone to suffer such as I. Shamefully there have been so many relatives pass without my ever grieving, including my mom and dad. My grandfather was the last but I was not into pills then. Opiates make you just take in the moment without a lot of processing. Its difficult to plan for the future and when you come off of them it seems to be all about what got you here and the "if only".

Just one person's observation/opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Just wanted to point out living it and reading studies are vastly different points of view from which to come at this entire notion of opioid maintenance. Is it a cure almost as bad as the illness being treated? You decide. Cost has to play a role unless you are very well off

wayne
wayne

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Unread 12-22-2014, 10:25 PM   #21
gotoffmdone
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Am in uncharted water with this wd episode. Been 12 days and my stomach burns very badly as does the inside of my brain. My temp is fine but it feels as if hot coals are inside my head and stomach. Do not understand it. Drinking cold water, a protein shake a day but hardly eat due to stomach. I do walk but tonight it is raining.

wayne
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Unread 12-23-2014, 12:58 AM   #22
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Finally stopped raining at 11:30pm so I took my walk. This shit hole I live in has dogs running loose everywhere and there is a leash law but I suppose these are wild dogs. But I suppose the need for oxygen outweighs any risk Whats the worst that could happen? I have been attacked by two black Chows before.
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Unread 12-23-2014, 03:35 AM   #23
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End of post

wayne
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Unread 12-23-2014, 07:27 AM   #24
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Hi Wayne, do you think how you're could be something other than withdrawals now that you're almost two weeks out - but especially because 4 days ago you felt like they were almost over? Have you ever had that before with WDs? I know everyone's different, but for you to feel like this after your stomach was doing better, it's concerning. Do you think you should see a doctor?

Nancy
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Unread 12-23-2014, 06:49 PM   #25
gotoffmdone
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Nope I know the problem but this is not the place to rant about it
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Unread 12-23-2014, 08:17 PM   #26
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I'm glad you know what it is. I hope you feel better before the grandkids get there so you can enjoy them.

Nancy
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Unread 12-23-2014, 10:48 PM   #27
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They have been here the full agonist have NEVER made me feel this way the er dr checked me out and nothing secondary is going on This is the lingering effects of an opiate second only to methadone The fact folks get by on slivers in my opinion speaks for itself

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Unread 12-26-2014, 02:12 AM   #28
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The longest I have been clean since taking Metha-Sub was 14 days. Have surpassed that by two days going on three. It is now a matter of regaining my strength as I have had nothing but protein shakes for all those days with an egg or two thrown in. I know I am weak from not eating.

The four months I went to the pain clinic it seemed as if I was in perpetual wds. The weight loss has been extraordinary but I would not advise anyone losing weight in such a manner. I temporary stopped the testosterone shots as they seemed to make the wd syndrome worse.

I have engaged in walking as best I can in this one horse, thousand dog town.

BTW Ten yrs on Methadone is too much. I took Sub and induced wds to get off that drug because I was tired of opiates. Then what do I do? Stay on Sub about as long, eight years. Pure ignorance of the drug with stupidity thrown in for good measure.

This board is all about Sub. I get that. It is also about one's experience with Sub. People can do what they wish. But to get off one hellacious maintenance drug only to stay on another for almost as long(8 years) makes little sense to me.

Please do not take this as me being against Sub for those who need it. But to stay on it eight yrs after suffering the hell that was precipitated methadone wds is...........I do not even have the words to convey just how stupid it was of me.

While on Methadone I had no clue my back was messed up big time. Sub done nothing to ease my pain and being inducted the way I was(no wds), I never felt quite right the entire time I was on Sub. Why I took it for so long when all that Methadone stopped any cravings for opiates is an answer for someone much smarter than me.

Maybe losing a small child weight wise will make it easier on my back. But, at least for now, when the brain has ceased producing endorphins pain is something that is magnified, as there is no natural defense against it. But, for now and until surgery, when I think about Methadone, Suboxone, Oxycodone, etc. I think about it being no different than me ingesting Cyanide or, better still, ethylene glycol(anti-freeze ingredient) as it is a slower methodical death.

If Sub has and is making your life better, great!!! It is a really good substitute for some of the alternatives. Now that the medical profession and the rx monitoring program picks it up and probably prospective employers, because the FDA has approved it solely for the use of opioid drug abuse and not for pain, I no longer want to have it in my system.

I had the Shingles this past summer along my neck. After umpiring all day and night I went to an ER. The Dr said that it is one of the most painful conditions and I would need a script for a narcotic. A few minutes later he walked in and asked me who was giving me Suboxone. It was as if the shingles no longer mattered once he saw on the rx monitoring system. All the guy could focus on was my use of Sub. He hadn't a clue if it was prescribed off label for my back. He assumed I had to be a dope head just looking for narcotics when I never brought them up. He did upon seeing the rash.

I did construct an email to the hospital CEO and did get a call from the head of their ER. Sub is a good drug for its intended purpose and not like a lot of people around here who use it to ward off wds until they can get their opiate of choice. Lot of diversion/selling of Bupe in this town. But Sub, even used as intended, can stigmatize one forever. Folks are just now catching up to the use of that drug. Sad

Wayne

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Unread 12-26-2014, 07:12 AM   #29
gotoffmdone
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It was a rough couple weeks but the wds have come to an end. No doubt it helped being clean of Suboxone for four months. It took all of September to test negative for the drug. It is amazing what we can endure when we have had enough. The only thing I crave is feeling better one day at at time.

Wayne
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Unread 12-26-2014, 09:04 AM   #30
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Hi Wayne, good to hear that the WDs are over. I hope that losing the weight, albeit not a good way to do it.., will help lessen your pain. Keep up the walking, or do you think swimming would be better - or would that be too much on your rotator cuff?

Glad you're feeling better, and I hope you do satisfy those cravings and feel better each day.

Nancy
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Unread 12-26-2014, 06:50 PM   #31
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Thanks Nancy feeling better each day. Sleeping well w/o any meds to help me. Just seem to have my days and nights mixed up as of now but I will take sleep whenever I can get it.

qayne
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Unread 12-27-2014, 06:07 AM   #32
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Nancy as far as swimming goes yes it does hurt my torn cuff but so does just about anything. That is the issue with injecting Testosterone. Doing that an being inactive can have the opposite effect. I do some lifting of weight and walk at least a mile a day so hopefully that suffices. The last thing I need is a worse testosterone to estrogen ratio. I am going to get my family Dr to recheck my lab work. The pain clinic gave me the Testosterone but I no longer see them. It was 81 from all the opiate use and they said it needed to be around 1100. They ordered 50mgs twice a week. That is such a small amount and my technique with drawing up the oil base Testosterone is causing me to waste more than I am using. My pharmacist said he had never seen it prescribed that way. I decided to draw up 100mgs once a week rather than 2 50mg doses. I waste less that way. Today I went and got an 18 gauge needle to draw it up then I switch needles to inject. That stuff is hard to push into my quads. I wish they had given me the Androgel but I was told it would not suffice to bring my levels up. Just as I am with long term Sub use I am also on the fence about using the Testosterone. But I was told and read where it would give me sense of well-being, help with fatigue and last my libido which is the least of the side effects I care about. My libido for about five minutes on a lunch break brought me to this point.

Not sleeping at night. Have two grandkids coming over today to stay a couple days. Ages 8 and 3 both girls. Every time I have to get on to the 3 yr old she starts yelling for mama but mama is in MS. There will be no sleeping today for sure so maybe I can sleep tonight from exhaustion(thinking about going to a hotel). Thankfully I still have shit load of Valium.
wayne

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Unread 12-27-2014, 07:48 PM   #33
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Hi Wayne, is there anything that can be done for the rotator cuff? Since the doctor prescribed the testosterone in a way that the pharmacist had never seen, did you ask him if it was true about the Androgel not being sufficient to bring your levels up?

Looks like you might be forced to sleep at night now with the girls there! And the valium. lol I hope you have a nice visit with them.

Nancy
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Unread 12-28-2014, 05:33 AM   #34
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surgery is the only thing that will help the torn cuff but I have had three, the last one being a five hr surgery, so I opt for no more since I no longer play the game just umpire it.

The pharmacist did agree that at this point the injections would be best. Maybe when the levels get up the gel could keep it there. Just not familiar with this whole testosterone replacement therapy. There are risk but the pharmacist told me the benefits out weigh those risks. Despite over a months worth of injections I cannot see those benefits. My guess is the horrific wds have overwhelmed the injections.
This stuff probably makes you feel better when you already feel somewhat good. It is not a drug to take while in wds but the pain clinic presumed I would be taking it along with their opiates.

After being inducted into my college alma mater's athletic Hall of Fame for baseball I learned today that my former HS coach is being inducted into the Tenn coach's Hall of Fame. He made the trip to Ky for my induction and I hope I feel like making it to his. We will see. It is Jan 17 so that should be a little over a month since those six days in hell.
wayne
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Unread 12-29-2014, 02:35 AM   #35
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Nancy I am taking a Valium 5mgs every other day then will be cutting it in half and taking that every other day. I see no benefit from taking that benzo whatsoever, neither as a sleep aid nor a muscle relaxer. Valium and othe benzo type drugs have always been downers and I hate the left over feeling they give me. Oddly enough pain meds are classified as downers but every single person I know who has become addicted to opiates we all bare one thing in common. That is rather than sleeping for hrs after taking a pain pill it seems to lift your spirits and provide tons of energy. I have told people if they start taking pain meds and they get a speed like effect be very careful. On the other hand if a person took one Tylenol 3 and slept for two days it has been my experience that the pills remain in their bottle indefinitely. I cannot tell you just how many scripts I had until age 30 and never took any of the pain meds. I have been injured so many times playing ball but always refused pain meds even after surgery. It is only when I tried to use them to overcome a feeling I was not keen on having that I became dependent then fully addicted. I took two hydrocodone just for the hell of it. I was doing homework while in grad school. I had forgotten I even took them until they hit me about 45 minutes later. Looking back I wish they had me sick or like codeine of which I have an allergy too. But they worked, too well. I have no idea why I even reached for and took them. I can handle just about any emotion except for perpetual non-stop guilt. Wish I was a sociopath with no conscience.

wayne

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Unread 12-29-2014, 07:52 AM   #36
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Hi Wayne, glad you're going to taper off of the valium, you don't need to experience benzo withdrawals after all you just went through.

One thing about your rotator cuff, even though you have had 3 surgeries, when was the last one? Do you know if they've made improvements or have any new technology since the last one you had?

Have you thought any more about finding a Pastor to talk with? I hope so.

Nancy
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Unread 12-29-2014, 08:06 AM   #37
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Last rotator cuff surgery was a huge mistake. It lasted over five hrs. The Dr that told me I had a tear this time said he would have to scope it to see if it was a full tear or a partial one. My shoulder only hurts when in wds. If I were to put in time and energy medically speaking it would be all about my back.

As far as seeking out a pastor yeah I think about it every day. This is just not the appropriate time yet. Some of the answers have to come within just like I kicked started the addiction without any help. I will know when the time is right. In two more days it will be three weeks since my last doses of opiates. I have no idea why sleep is so damn hard to come by at this point. I am not all that familiar with the strongest of sleep meds but when I get the chance I am going to get something that will knock my ass out. Ambien hasn't worked. Not sure if Restoril (another benzo) would. There has to be a Class II sleep aid. Matter of fact I think I will Google Rx sleeps aids. Later.

wayne
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Unread 12-30-2014, 12:27 AM   #38
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Not much out there in the way of sleep meds that will overcome the reason for my insomnia. So, I suppose it will just take more time. I have gone cold turkey from full agonist many a time and within three weeks sleep has returned. This has been different. Not sure if getting older has something to do with it, or if it is the amount and type of opiates I have taken over the past 18 yrs(so called maintenance drugs). Could be both. I am sure at some point sleep will return. Just as I used to have a strong craving for opiates I now transfer that craving to sleep.

The hardest question to answer is once clean, now what?

wayne
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Unread 12-30-2014, 01:32 AM   #39
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Wayne! Now here is something I have first hand knowledge of...Have you tried or considered:

Melatonin:

http://www.m.webmd.com/sleep-disorde...tonin-overview

It is the natural chemical produced in the human body to flow with your circadian rhythms, that help you sleep. To my surprise, it is also found in plants, fungi, and even bacteria, to assure there is a rest period to recover. It has a great effect on the pineal gland.

Any kind of opioid abuse will affect your bodies "memory" of how your rhythm used to work, it can take an entire season cycle, like summer, fall, spring, or winter, for your rhythm to correct.

Here is the good news! Melatonin, is something your body produces naturally, even though you are having trouble sleeping, you ARE sleeping, it's probably that your melatonin levels are low, causing anxiety while lying in bed, wondering about everything, but especially why you can't get to sleep.

I was recommended this while I worked on a cruise ship, and we slept below the water line, it was hard to tell if it was night or day.

You can get this at any drug store, pharmacy, or health food store, and I've never heard of any abuse potential with it, it doesn't make you high, it's not an anti anxiety med, it just makes you feel the natural "yawn" feeling of "it's time to go to bed."

I would take it at dinner, because it took a few hours to metabolize, but it works! It might even help eliminate some of the anxiety you have about NOT being able to sleep.

I wouldn't take it for more than 3 to 6 weeks, by them your body's circadian rhythm should have synchronize.

Hope that helps a bit...

Dre
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Unread 12-30-2014, 06:00 AM   #40
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Yes I have tried Melatonin when in rehab. Might as well taken a bite of Turkey. The longer and more opiates you take the harder it is to get over the wd syndrome

wayne

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Unread 12-30-2014, 07:21 AM   #41
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Hi Wayne, maybe it didn't work in rehab because you weren't this far along without opiates? Might be worth a try, as that was a while ago. Valerian root has worked for others as well. Here's a little blurb on Valerian root:

http://pro.psychcentral.com/sleep-na...n/001918.html#

Most studies have used valerian root extract at 300 to 600 mg, taken about an hour before bedtime. It seems safe, with few side effects, no drug-drug interactions, and no addictive potential. And it’s very cheap, coming in at around a dime per dose, depending on where you buy it. Now that doesn’t stink.

Here's some expanded information on melatonin dosing that was mentioned in the link Oxytarginbup#1 gave you:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supple...name=melatonin

Just in case you wanted to give it another try or try the valerian root.

Nancy
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Unread 12-30-2014, 09:28 AM   #42
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Thanks I may just let time do its thing. I slept about five hrs waking up at 4:30am. I am taking lots of the B complex, drinking protein shakes with vitamins and minerals and I am taking Vitamin D as it was low according to labwork. I am just about tired of swallowing pills be them addictive or not. The biggest issue right now is feeling the back pain immensely.

I have no doubt the sleep will eventually come. If I can suffer the way I did three weeks ago waiting for sleep is nothing. Insomnia can be exhausting but I doubt it will kill me. But appreciate the suggestions.

wayne
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Unread 12-31-2014, 11:46 AM   #43
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Back hurt so bad all night I went to walk-in clinic as soon as they opened and got a shot of Toradol and some type of steroid similar, I suppose, to Predisone. I have an Rx back brace and did put in on around 2am but after having in on for hrs it began to be the cause of more pain.

My spine Dr told me I had so many problems in so many areas he felt surgery should only happen when I cannot function anymore because the surgery would cause that to happen earlier. But with all that is wrong with my back I hurt mainly in the area where I have bulging disks with some spinal stenosis. The disk are pressing on the nerve root and that is why my leg is numb. I have degenerative disk arthritis at the base of my lumbar region but despite that my pain is mostly in the upper area. I am going to see if he would not try and fix my entire back but deal with the area that hurts the most.

wayne
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Unread 12-31-2014, 01:51 PM   #44
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Day 21 since last opiate. Almost five months since last Suboxone strip. Can't wait to see how I feel about next Friday.

Life is not about running a race to the finish line, it is a journey one step at a time. Sometimes you take a few step backwards but at least you are not standing still. I wish I could lay still and steal some sleep.

BTW Nancy I looked for some of the V. Root. When I ask about it they looked at me as if I had a horn protruding out of my skull.
wayne
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Unread 12-31-2014, 06:43 PM   #45
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Hi Wayne, hahaha! "...as if I had a horn protruding out of my skull." Love that.

But it's a little strange that they didn't know what Valerian Root is. Yikes! It's in the vitamin section in CVS, Walmart and even supermarkets around here.

I wish you could get some sleep too. I'm hoping for a happy, but especially, a healthy new year for you Wayne.

Nancy
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Unread 12-31-2014, 07:55 PM   #46
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Thanks Nancy.

Obviously, your desire for me having a good year is my hope and desire as well.

I was at a supermarket in the vitamin section. They had massive amounts of Melatonin but was totally lost when I mentioned the V. Root. I had gotten groceries, something I despise to do, so I did not feel like going to a CVS and for sure Walmart. Going to and thru Walmart is a close second to going thru wds. I am not the shopping kind. When I do go it is for a single purpose. My wife gives me a list. It would take me hrs to find that junk at Walmart but the store I go to I know where everything is and I rearrange her list. If I take her I may as well toss the list as she looks at things not on the list. I just sat down and let her do her thing. Most of the time I leave her home. I wish she could drive sometimes but the grocery bill would be our highest bill we pay.

What is it about you gals that make you look at things you do not buy. My aunt would spend 10 hrs in a mall and come home with nothing.

Wayne
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Unread 01-01-2015, 12:19 AM   #47
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Well I will post in the am concerning whether this is the night I sleep. Feel fine from the neck down. Weighed at the clinic today and have lost approx. 40lbs. That much more and I will be at my college playing weight for the first time since 1980. Have no dress clothes that fit anymore. So I guess I have to go shopping AGAIN.

I cannot think of a diet quit like that of opiate wds.

Wayne
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Unread 01-01-2015, 03:37 AM   #48
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Hi Wayne

Had to laugh over the 'women's' shopping post. Seems some things are the same whereat her we are in the world. Yep I agree. If you re going shopping, leave our women behind else we get very sore feet.

Happy New Year!

Leo
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Unread 01-01-2015, 04:27 AM   #49
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Thanks for posting Leo. I do not get sore feet just a sore butt. Until check out time that is, especially at a Walmart.

Last night and today is just like any other day of the year. Pre opiate days when I was in my 30's, this was one of my favorite times of the year second only to Autumn in the hills and mountains of east Tennessee( I live close the Gatlinburg and the Great Smokey Mountains). In the past using days, I am not sure I even noticed the changes of seasons. It sure is amazing when you take pills to not think, neither of the past nor the future, but live only in the moment.

When you do wake the hell up you realize just how much time and life you have wasted. If not careful, that alone can make you want to use again. The most important thing I can do is to try and forego thinking about euphoric recall(the way opiates made me feel), and try and think only what happens in the song I posted in a link above, such as once the mind is free there misery at the end of a bottle of pills.

As long as I recall what I went through three weeks ago, I have no doubt I will have the odds in my favor when it comes to not taking what is clearly poison to me. There can never be a 100 percent guarantee that I will not take opiates, especially if I have back surgery. All I can do is to remain hyper-vigilant and get those odds in my favor any way I can, one day at a time.

And, as addicts, we certainly know how to live one day at a time as we have done that very well seeking the thrill of the pill and focusing only on today, letting tomorrow take care of its self. Then the rat race begins all over again.

Appreciate the reminder that it was a New year. It honestly never entered my mind. Midnight came and went as usual.
Wayne

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Unread 01-01-2015, 06:55 AM   #50
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Well up again all night. Turned the TV to the music channels and listened to Soundscapes. That is usually soothing for the mind but so far it has not helped. I am assuming it will just take more time. Heading into week four clean of opiates. This is the longest I have gone without opiates since taking Methadone for ten years followed by Sub for eight then pain meds at a pain clinic while still having Sub in my system.

In all the yrs I took hydrocodone, which was pre methadone days, two months is the longest I went without. That is the record I am shooting for to break. For me it would be like being in the Guinness Book of Records.

Wayne

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