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Unread 04-06-2010, 05:04 PM   #1
Carlos
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Default My Problem with 12 Step as if it was treatment, my pet peeve

This is a good Issue about stigma regarding the 12 Step that is in another location of this board. I see it everywhere I go, and I think it is reality not just like a delusional perception of mine. Stigma and discrimination is here and there is not many people who are willing to wave a flag and advocate for ex Opieate addicts.

Unfortunately, the biggest stigma and discrimination developers are the Social Services profession. Worse yet is a professional in recovering from
opiate dependence, and getting a felony conviction. One is treated as if
one is a major criminal


I cannot find the web page address, but if you find Emmett Velten, Ph.D., The Truth of Methadone Treatment it posture is similar problem with our general rational that our citizens and professionals look at most Substance Abuse treatment and their patients.

I try to take Bill Clinton's posture about Homosexuality in the military, "Don't ask and don't tell".

Worse yet are the 12 Step true believers who are professionals in treatment centers and who are constantly violating the traditions. The 8 Tradition that says that AA/NA will forever be non professionals, yet we have a lot of professional gurus. The making the patients go to 12Step meetings violation of the 11the Tradition that says is a program of attraction no promotion. Forget about being forced, the fact that ones counselor is always asking patient how they are doing in AA meeting or if the facility is making patients sign attendance, you might as well forget that there is such thing as Anonymity. There are other traditions that they are violating, like they will not lend the AA/NA name to any outside enterprice. Most treatment facilities have out right stolen or AA/NA is allowing them to use their "protocol" as if it was treatment. A lot of those facilities are buy a lot of their books and other materials so I am wondeing if those related facilities are economically supporting AA/NA.

I do not think the 12 Steps is treatment.If you are anything like me, you would want you treatment of any medical condition to be based on research and science. You would want the antibiotic that your doctor prescribed for your infection to have undergone all kinds of rigorous pharmaceutical research (besides some controversy here and there for the most part the FDA does do a good job) making sure
that the medication you have taken does have efficacy, and would do what it promise to do and it is not a placebo effect and does quite a bit of work about the safety, side effects and just make sure that it is an okay medication to take.

I find that the 12 Step abstinence base "treatment, has no science (little at best) base, and they never did care to do much about research or its efficacy anyway as a treatment protocol. As a "treatment" protocol it is at best questionable and controversial. I donÂ’t have any problem with the 12 Step being a fellowship or a society as it is a believe system, they call it spiritual, but numerous federal court have concluded.. The fact is that the 12 Step is based on "spirituality" or religiosity, not reasearch. And we have accepted that it is treatment not based on its characteristics, but rather that it has been repeated to us so much that it is treatment, that we jus t gave up and believe it. But the 12 Step in my opinion dose not meet the characteristics of treatment. When the 12 Step jumped in the 1980s from a fellowship into a treatment protocol it has become dangerously pseudoscience. Although the Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration has provide significant and substantial amount of publications with over 40 plus Treatment Improvement Protocols, based on research and best practice most treatment center if not all treatment centers are virtually ignored all of
the research that is available and want us patients to accept their theories at face value, even though some research are finding that their
theories are inconsistent with research results.

Evidence Research base treatment most become a patient's movement, because it is our treatment not the professional's. I personally believe that we have been betrayed by the social service professionals that prefer to go business as usual instead of studying and begging to provide us substance abuse patients with the best protocols that are already available but are ignored. What I mean is to start providing us with real treatment. Not shit they have been making up by
their hunches and intuition, but real science behind their "professional
opinion". If a professional cannot back up their opinion with some research data or study and notes whether it has been replicated and
the amount of validity and reliability those studies have, the professional
is not providing us with their professional opinion, they are mealy using
their personal opinion given by a person who happens to be a professional

It is obviously easier to do nothing and continuo to be business as usual, than to begging to read research (something they really do, but we assume as patients that they do all of the time). It was disturbing to me when Dowd in 2001 (this study have been replicated with similar results) found that only about 25% of all clinical practitioners in the social sciences (Psychology, Social Workers and Mental Health Counselors) have read a Scientific Journal of their profession since they left college. I think that is shameful. They just practice by mutual agreement of other professionals that agree or not with their theories. In essence license practioners have license to make shit up. As they do not have to prove that any of their theories and treatment do what it is suppose to do. Some researchers have found that when a member of the APA violates a Code of Ethic, like informing a patient that the treatment they are providing patients is under study or in fact does not even make statements as to it research findings. Most professional organizations are doing no more that a slap in the hand for their violations. I get amazed at what professionals can get Continuing Education Credits (how about for reading "Chicken Soup for the Soul"). When you read a book, and you only notice that they are just quoting each other, and they make no research

It is disturbing when professionals cannot read research papers, and very few of them know enough about statistics to know whether the research they are reading has validity or reliability. Even professionals are scare that they in fact are going to have to start proving that what they do does what it promises. The fact is that 12 Step as a Treatment protocol does not work as a treatment program, 5% is not a result, is a coincident when professionals can not predict which of their patients are
going to obtain the results that they treatment promises. We should not
accept ever again to be blamed for the results when we have no control
over the protocols. The responsibility for the general outcome is the professionals not the patients. This is the only treatment I know that are
blamed the patients for the poor and pitiful outcomes.

We as patients do not have the luxury to wait and see when the professionals make up their mind about what is in the patientÂ’s best interest. Not while they are making high salaries and most of us are getting arrested for possession and making our life miserable because the fact is that Drug Treatment are failing schools. If we do not know how to stop using, the professionals are surely not teaching us how to stop.

I prefer that you do not believe me, but rather to begging having a healthy
skeptical look at treatment. For the most part Suboxone and Methadone have a lot more "recovery' or "rehabilitation" than the abstinence based treatment. What I mean is that we patients for the most part if you
have a good doctor who has been following the minimum standards provided by SAMHSA in their publications you are in good shape. Most of us who were on methadone at one time, remember the abuses that we had to take from some treatment center who ignored TIPs #1 The State Methadone Treatment Guidelines"..... At least the comment of the administration of the Miami Dade County Treatment Center came with the unwise comments that TIP #1 was "only guidelines". He had no answer when I asked him whether he thought that the arbitrary and capricious policies and rules, we patients were under where a lot better than TIPs #1??? ... It was probably little to do with my actions, but less than a year later. It was easier to close the case and past the buck, than to study. They decided to close the MMT they were running and gave it to Dr. Ruiz (a little better, but not by much) Comprehensive Psychiatric Center. The service where better, but the cost went up substantially. He gained over 600 patients over night without having to do much work of outreach. Dr. Ruiz received, I heard, a million dollars (that might not be accurate) a year just to take the public service patients.... But while I was in Miami Dade County's MMT I have never seen such poor treatment of patients ever in my history of being in the health related profession. I do not know of any attorneys what would want to take a Junky for a client, but if you know one. I can prove mal practice, just by the fact that they were ignoring the State Methadone Treatment Guidelines, which had been available for about 10 years plus before the MMT closed. Even the current abstinence based treatment they provide is yelling to be suit for mal practice. I believe SAMHSA and CSAT pays for
most of the funding, they ignore their guidelines and in fact are not proving treatment at all. The 12 Step in spite of what we have accepted
at face value, was not ever designed as a treatment protocol, but as a

We have a good thing with most Suboxen doctors, my a Dr. Blumenthal was a real total prick, that probably just took the course. When I took him the TIP #40, he asked me why I did not think he has read them. I thought to myself "because you act like you have", but I did not want him to be a worse prick so I shroug my shoulders.

Treatment needs to become a lot cheaper, where the patient on the street find it cheaper than the dope on the street. Not all states Florida is one that is not medicaid and medicare do not buy the Buprenorphine for the patients. Floridians need to do something about it, I have had insurance but I could no longer afford it on unemployment. When I read that 8 mgs 3 times a day of Suboxone for 30 days cost $500 to $600, and genetics are not that much better at $2.50 per 8 mgs @ $250 per month that is quite a bit of money from a street junki who want to get on with their lives.

I think we are loosing, if we ever had a partnership with our counselors who are more consern about the institutions policies that they care about ethics. When institution write a policy, their conciderations is their convinience, not the patients needs.

Junkies are not a disability or impairment where you will find most advocates and flag waivers. So unfortunatly we have to do it ourselves
until the rest of the population start treating us like normal every day citizens with the same legal and code of ethics rights.

I think that we are in a Mental Health/Substance Abuse treatment crisis. I find less and less concern about their Code of Ethics (they probably have not read it since they left college), test it out, be subled do not ask in a threatening fashion, but ask none agressively when was the last time
your counselor read their professional Code of Ethics? ask like if you are going to ask them a vague question something that came up some where else a long time ago. If they take a while to think before they answer, we are in trouble. And they might be good people, and well meaning too. They are not usualy people out to get us (some maybe), but I think it is a point of concern for us patients, because ethics does have a lot of inplication about treatment and how competent the practioner maybe.

It is my impression that some stigma is perpetuated by professionals specially those who believe in the 12 Step, who keeps making statements that all Substance Abuse patients have underlain disturvances. Yet their is no research that proves that to be so. We have just taken Bill Wilson statement. Imagen a stockbroker and a proctologist making theories about alcoholism and drug abuse that have never been proven to be true. They have just repeated it so frequently and other professionals have continuo to accepted at face value, that "we have come to believe" (without prove) that it is true.

I have become a healthy skeptical when it comes to my treatment, I hope that you are reasonable and rational enough that you concider looking and expanding on our concerns. I know that we can become a lot more effective in the treatment that is being provide to us, that the dominance
that continue to exist and continues to be perpetuated upon us. If you have been in an abstinence base treatment, specially those paid with public money, and are 12 Step Oriented (with 91% are, not because they are effective, but because the staff are perpetuating their own spicies), you will find that for the most part they are runned like a Minimum Security Prison, patints are expected to snitch on each other in the name
of "treatment and recovery" (forget about the violation of your Privacy and Confidenciality), patient explotation is not uncomen, check the professional Code of Ethics. I find that their practice and sometime even their policies have a political repressive under tone, punitively oriented.
For the most part just because you have signed for Treatment Consent, it does not mean that a patient most accept all treatment that they may coerse or compel you to take, treatment programs are specially extremely poor at doing "Behavioral Contracts" which are suppose to be voluntarly signed as a contract is an agreement between two people to resulve a
therapeutic issue, it is not intended to be with a mission of punishment.
For the most part if you read the guidelines for a Behavioural Contract and you have ever been under contract you will notice the violation of treatment standards.


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Unread 04-07-2010, 11:10 AM   #2
okie
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You have many valid points. Peer support groups are not and should not be considered to be treatment..Nor are they necessary to recover..imagine if cancer patients were sent thru the same type of rehabs that "treat" addiction..scary thought..treatment should be based on solid medical research and evidence..
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Unread 04-07-2010, 12:33 PM   #3
OhioMike
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Instead of picking apart different recovery tools, maybe the interesting question would be what constitutes a healthy personal treatment plan?

If peer support in not valid in recovery (treatment), then what is the purpose of this web site?

Sure it shares factual medical information, but, that can be done without the message boards!

Further, since this disease is not limited to merely biological issues, wouldn't one be hard pressed to rely solely on medications which only address biological symptoms.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that "treatment" / "recovery" is made up of any tool which can help the individual move forward with healing in a positive and proactive fashion, no matter what tool is used.

And just possibly, I mean maybe, recovery is a bit different for each of us!

But I've heard the various comments, that medical aids are not true recovery or those who state, oh I am going to save so and so from those 12 step people. I never could grasp either as being productive trains of thought for my own recovery, thankfully!

But, to each their own!

So long as ones recovery works for them, then maybe it is the correct thing!

Mike
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Unread 04-11-2010, 01:18 PM   #4
sagelikepeace
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Default It's like you read my mind!!!!

I have strted on my associates in Psychology so one day I hopefully can counsel others with addiction issues. I have many problems with AA,NA actuall any 12 step group. They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world. My favorite point came when I asked a 12 stepper if AA means no booze EVER, NA means no more dope, then I said how sorry I felt for those poor OA(overeater anonymous nenbers who are surely starving concentration camp style cuz surely that means they must never evr eat again. I laughed my ass off and made the person say "what do they learn to do with their food consumption"? CONTROPL HOW MUCH THEY EAT DUH! They were hesitant to admit such sacrilidge but they had to cuz it was the truth. They way I see it no invisible force made me take a drink or snort a line ,nor pop handfulls of painpills and no invisible force has the power to stop me. That must come from within the individual for that shows true determination and a willingness to change. Not taking on another daily addiction which is AA,NA OA, or any /all 12 step programs. KUDOS TO YOU AND FOR STANDING UP FOR YOUR BELIEFS CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
This is a good Issue about stigma regarding the 12 Step that is in another location of this board. I see it everywhere I go, and I think it is reality not just like a delusional perception of mine. Stigma and discrimination is here and there is not many people who are willing to wave a flag and advocate for ex Opieate addicts.

Unfortunately, the biggest stigma and discrimination developers are the Social Services profession. Worse yet is a professional in recovering from
opiate dependence, and getting a felony conviction. One is treated as if
one is a major criminal


I cannot find the web page address, but if you find Emmett Velten, Ph.D., The Truth of Methadone Treatment it posture is similar problem with our general rational that our citizens and professionals look at most Substance Abuse treatment and their patients.

I try to take Bill Clinton's posture about Homosexuality in the military, "Don't ask and don't tell".

Worse yet are the 12 Step true believers who are professionals in treatment centers and who are constantly violating the traditions. The 8 Tradition that says that AA/NA will forever be non professionals, yet we have a lot of professional gurus. The making the patients go to 12Step meetings violation of the 11the Tradition that says is a program of attraction no promotion. Forget about being forced, the fact that ones counselor is always asking patient how they are doing in AA meeting or if the facility is making patients sign attendance, you might as well forget that there is such thing as Anonymity. There are other traditions that they are violating, like they will not lend the AA/NA name to any outside enterprice. Most treatment facilities have out right stolen or AA/NA is allowing them to use their "protocol" as if it was treatment. A lot of those facilities are buy a lot of their books and other materials so I am wondeing if those related facilities are economically supporting AA/NA.

I do not think the 12 Steps is treatment.If you are anything like me, you would want you treatment of any medical condition to be based on research and science. You would want the antibiotic that your doctor prescribed for your infection to have undergone all kinds of rigorous pharmaceutical research (besides some controversy here and there for the most part the FDA does do a good job) making sure
that the medication you have taken does have efficacy, and would do what it promise to do and it is not a placebo effect and does quite a bit of work about the safety, side effects and just make sure that it is an okay medication to take.

I find that the 12 Step abstinence base "treatment, has no science (little at best) base, and they never did care to do much about research or its efficacy anyway as a treatment protocol. As a "treatment" protocol it is at best questionable and controversial. I donÂ’t have any problem with the 12 Step being a fellowship or a society as it is a believe system, they call it spiritual, but numerous federal court have concluded.. The fact is that the 12 Step is based on "spirituality" or religiosity, not reasearch. And we have accepted that it is treatment not based on its characteristics, but rather that it has been repeated to us so much that it is treatment, that we jus t gave up and believe it. But the 12 Step in my opinion dose not meet the characteristics of treatment. When the 12 Step jumped in the 1980s from a fellowship into a treatment protocol it has become dangerously pseudoscience. Although the Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration has provide significant and substantial amount of publications with over 40 plus Treatment Improvement Protocols, based on research and best practice most treatment center if not all treatment centers are virtually ignored all of
the research that is available and want us patients to accept their theories at face value, even though some research are finding that their
theories are inconsistent with research results.

Evidence Research base treatment most become a patient's movement, because it is our treatment not the professional's. I personally believe that we have been betrayed by the social service professionals that prefer to go business as usual instead of studying and begging to provide us substance abuse patients with the best protocols that are already available but are ignored. What I mean is to start providing us with real treatment. Not shit they have been making up by
their hunches and intuition, but real science behind their "professional
opinion". If a professional cannot back up their opinion with some research data or study and notes whether it has been replicated and
the amount of validity and reliability those studies have, the professional
is not providing us with their professional opinion, they are mealy using
their personal opinion given by a person who happens to be a professional

It is obviously easier to do nothing and continuo to be business as usual, than to begging to read research (something they really do, but we assume as patients that they do all of the time). It was disturbing to me when Dowd in 2001 (this study have been replicated with similar results) found that only about 25% of all clinical practitioners in the social sciences (Psychology, Social Workers and Mental Health Counselors) have read a Scientific Journal of their profession since they left college. I think that is shameful. They just practice by mutual agreement of other professionals that agree or not with their theories. In essence license practioners have license to make shit up. As they do not have to prove that any of their theories and treatment do what it is suppose to do. Some researchers have found that when a member of the APA violates a Code of Ethic, like informing a patient that the treatment they are providing patients is under study or in fact does not even make statements as to it research findings. Most professional organizations are doing no more that a slap in the hand for their violations. I get amazed at what professionals can get Continuing Education Credits (how about for reading "Chicken Soup for the Soul"). When you read a book, and you only notice that they are just quoting each other, and they make no research

It is disturbing when professionals cannot read research papers, and very few of them know enough about statistics to know whether the research they are reading has validity or reliability. Even professionals are scare that they in fact are going to have to start proving that what they do does what it promises. The fact is that 12 Step as a Treatment protocol does not work as a treatment program, 5% is not a result, is a coincident when professionals can not predict which of their patients are
going to obtain the results that they treatment promises. We should not
accept ever again to be blamed for the results when we have no control
over the protocols. The responsibility for the general outcome is the professionals not the patients. This is the only treatment I know that are
blamed the patients for the poor and pitiful outcomes.

We as patients do not have the luxury to wait and see when the professionals make up their mind about what is in the patientÂ’s best interest. Not while they are making high salaries and most of us are getting arrested for possession and making our life miserable because the fact is that Drug Treatment are failing schools. If we do not know how to stop using, the professionals are surely not teaching us how to stop.

I prefer that you do not believe me, but rather to begging having a healthy
skeptical look at treatment. For the most part Suboxone and Methadone have a lot more "recovery' or "rehabilitation" than the abstinence based treatment. What I mean is that we patients for the most part if you
have a good doctor who has been following the minimum standards provided by SAMHSA in their publications you are in good shape. Most of us who were on methadone at one time, remember the abuses that we had to take from some treatment center who ignored TIPs #1 The State Methadone Treatment Guidelines"..... At least the comment of the administration of the Miami Dade County Treatment Center came with the unwise comments that TIP #1 was "only guidelines". He had no answer when I asked him whether he thought that the arbitrary and capricious policies and rules, we patients were under where a lot better than TIPs #1??? ... It was probably little to do with my actions, but less than a year later. It was easier to close the case and past the buck, than to study. They decided to close the MMT they were running and gave it to Dr. Ruiz (a little better, but not by much) Comprehensive Psychiatric Center. The service where better, but the cost went up substantially. He gained over 600 patients over night without having to do much work of outreach. Dr. Ruiz received, I heard, a million dollars (that might not be accurate) a year just to take the public service patients.... But while I was in Miami Dade County's MMT I have never seen such poor treatment of patients ever in my history of being in the health related profession. I do not know of any attorneys what would want to take a Junky for a client, but if you know one. I can prove mal practice, just by the fact that they were ignoring the State Methadone Treatment Guidelines, which had been available for about 10 years plus before the MMT closed. Even the current abstinence based treatment they provide is yelling to be suit for mal practice. I believe SAMHSA and CSAT pays for
most of the funding, they ignore their guidelines and in fact are not proving treatment at all. The 12 Step in spite of what we have accepted
at face value, was not ever designed as a treatment protocol, but as a

We have a good thing with most Suboxen doctors, my a Dr. Blumenthal was a real total prick, that probably just took the course. When I took him the TIP #40, he asked me why I did not think he has read them. I thought to myself "because you act like you have", but I did not want him to be a worse prick so I shroug my shoulders.

Treatment needs to become a lot cheaper, where the patient on the street find it cheaper than the dope on the street. Not all states Florida is one that is not medicaid and medicare do not buy the Buprenorphine for the patients. Floridians need to do something about it, I have had insurance but I could no longer afford it on unemployment. When I read that 8 mgs 3 times a day of Suboxone for 30 days cost $500 to $600, and genetics are not that much better at $2.50 per 8 mgs @ $250 per month that is quite a bit of money from a street junki who want to get on with their lives.

I think we are loosing, if we ever had a partnership with our counselors who are more consern about the institutions policies that they care about ethics. When institution write a policy, their conciderations is their convinience, not the patients needs.

Junkies are not a disability or impairment where you will find most advocates and flag waivers. So unfortunatly we have to do it ourselves
until the rest of the population start treating us like normal every day citizens with the same legal and code of ethics rights.

I think that we are in a Mental Health/Substance Abuse treatment crisis. I find less and less concern about their Code of Ethics (they probably have not read it since they left college), test it out, be subled do not ask in a threatening fashion, but ask none agressively when was the last time
your counselor read their professional Code of Ethics? ask like if you are going to ask them a vague question something that came up some where else a long time ago. If they take a while to think before they answer, we are in trouble. And they might be good people, and well meaning too. They are not usualy people out to get us (some maybe), but I think it is a point of concern for us patients, because ethics does have a lot of inplication about treatment and how competent the practioner maybe.

It is my impression that some stigma is perpetuated by professionals specially those who believe in the 12 Step, who keeps making statements that all Substance Abuse patients have underlain disturvances. Yet their is no research that proves that to be so. We have just taken Bill Wilson statement. Imagen a stockbroker and a proctologist making theories about alcoholism and drug abuse that have never been proven to be true. They have just repeated it so frequently and other professionals have continuo to accepted at face value, that "we have come to believe" (without prove) that it is true.

I have become a healthy skeptical when it comes to my treatment, I hope that you are reasonable and rational enough that you concider looking and expanding on our concerns. I know that we can become a lot more effective in the treatment that is being provide to us, that the dominance
that continue to exist and continues to be perpetuated upon us. If you have been in an abstinence base treatment, specially those paid with public money, and are 12 Step Oriented (with 91% are, not because they are effective, but because the staff are perpetuating their own spicies), you will find that for the most part they are runned like a Minimum Security Prison, patints are expected to snitch on each other in the name
of "treatment and recovery" (forget about the violation of your Privacy and Confidenciality), patient explotation is not uncomen, check the professional Code of Ethics. I find that their practice and sometime even their policies have a political repressive under tone, punitively oriented.
For the most part just because you have signed for Treatment Consent, it does not mean that a patient most accept all treatment that they may coerse or compel you to take, treatment programs are specially extremely poor at doing "Behavioral Contracts" which are suppose to be voluntarly signed as a contract is an agreement between two people to resulve a
therapeutic issue, it is not intended to be with a mission of punishment.
For the most part if you read the guidelines for a Behavioural Contract and you have ever been under contract you will notice the violation of treatment standards.

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Unread 04-11-2010, 08:46 PM   #5
monsterkitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sagelikepeace View Post
They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world.
Who offered to perform scientific or medical research on AA/NA, and who was it that refused to let this be done? Also, when did this happen? The only 'headquarters' for AA is the General Service Office in New York, and the people that run it are simply common members-there is no one in charge of these organizations.

I am like many others in that I believe AA/NA is not the answer to addiction in itself, but it obviously has benefited many. Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with you, but even if I did we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect yours. One problem I do have with 12-step groups is that you are not allowed to have an opinion. Just believe what they tell you, dammit! lol.

I'm just curious about the attempted scientific research, that's all.

Last edited by monsterkitty; 04-11-2010 at 09:01 PM..
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Unread 04-12-2010, 07:42 AM   #6
theswan
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Wow great read!

You echo many of my concerns about the whole field of "recovery" I know many AA's who work in recovery and it does irk me a bit.

The whole my way or the highway attitude in some steppers is a real put off.

However, I do think AA has a place and a big place in recovery. AA is after all a 'fellowship" not a treatment facility. AA has firm roots in religion which may be a turn off for many but a huge bonus for others.

Take what you need and leave the rest is a slogan that one can take. I am sober over 22 years and know many others who owe a great debt to AA so I will never put it down however AA should take it's knocks where it fits.

Glen
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Unread 10-07-2010, 11:30 AM   #7
Carlos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMike View Post
Instead of picking apart different recovery tools, maybe the interesting question would be what constitutes a healthy personal treatment plan?

I think that we should pick apart, it is an issue of our treatment not theirs. And if there are so much treatment failures in, we patients need to be the one that need to start questioning what is going on. If you would be aware of the pseudoscience in substance abuse treatment you would be enraged. I just finish reading about a month ago a book by Hester and Miller the Handbook of Alcoholism treatment approaches. Although it may be in place a little technical for non professionals, I was surprised to learn how amateur are a good number of these treatment facilities. The Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration has been publishing documents and Treatment Improvement Protocols for decades and they have been virtually ignored by Treatment Staff, they would have to study those poor things. I do not think they call it Improvement Protocol, becaue professionals are doing real well.

A lot of people think that psychology is just common sense, and the fact is that the "Truth is Stranger than Fiction". We are scammed and con by a lot of professionals that have not read a scientific journal of their profession since they left colleges decades ago and they are just practice by "Clinical Judgment" which is fully based on intuition and hunches (not too scientific).

If you and me go to a doctor for an infection, you can count that the prescription written to you have gone thru rigorous scientific investigation before the FDA allow to be put out in the market (asides of some history of the problem and whistle blowing that have gone inside the FDA, but that has cause for treatment to improve not get worse).

Yet, if you know anything about research you will be disappointed that most of those treatment faculties based on 12 Step Programs are doing things without an iota of research. No wonder why the treatment outcomes are so piss poor.

Now, I am one of you guys, I do not get a toaster not an iron for telling you this but we need to start looking at the pseudoscience that is being practice on us and we are buying it just at face value expecting that what is being done to us by professional has merit in research science, most is not.

People we got to get smarter about our treatment, whose treatment is it any way. It surely is not the professionals. It is OURS.

If anyone can pick from the library How to think Straight About Psychology, by Dr. Keith E. Stanvich we will all be surprise of the bull kaka that is going around and how is it that we have fallen for such poor treatment…. This is a revolution people!! No shit. We are going to be responsible for changing the Ship of State because not many professionals are going to be willing to change so easily.

If peer support in not valid in recovery (treatment), then what is the purpose of this web site?


You are right, we are to share information, and hopefully the information will be valid. Doesn't think it is because you thought of it yourself, we have to even question what we think. Our dearest theories, most be question at every step of the way. It is not that anxiety producing.

Sure it shares factual medical information, but, that can be done without the message boards!

Good point, I just keep HOPING that they information is valid and reliable. For me I do not mind if you question my position. In fact I welcome it, I just hope that you come back with good data.

Further, since this disease is not limited to merely biological issues, wouldn't one be hard pressed to rely solely on medications which only address biological symptoms.

One thing about science that people regularly do not note, is the fact that from one field to the other it usually validate each other. For example Brain Science will find validation in Behavioral Science as well as Cognitive Psychology. So do not always think that it is either or. We are going to have to start learning about science and pseudoscience there is a lot of professional researchers calling for it and the message has not gotten to the patients yet. I can assure you there is a gigantic gap between science and practice by clinicians. I know, I am one of them. I am both a professional in the field and a patient. Yet substance abuse treatment was not my expertise. So it has taken me quite a while to learn what this was all about and I cannot give my thanks to the professional clinicians. I think they are full of bull a good number of times. Too frequently for my taste; the ignorance of science is ramped around the helping professions and it is up to us to wake them up. Treatment really belongs to us, it is our lifes they are playing with.

Hardly anyone ever questions any more whether the world is round (not flat) and whether it revolves around the sun with other planets (instead of the sun revolving around the earth). I suggest, we need to get there about our treatment.


I don't know for sure, but my guess is that "treatment" / "recovery" is made up of any tool which can help the individual move forward with healing in a positive and proactive fashion, no matter what tool is used.

Yea, but it has to be reliable and valid. There are too many tools out there that are not design to do the job. Infact I suspect that some of those tools that have been sold to us causes relapse rather than rehabilitation.

And just possibly, I mean maybe, recovery is a bit different for each of us!

Yea, the data seem to be going in that direction, what we do not seem to know yet is what fits for eachh of us. Behavioral sciences have not gotten to that point yet. The closes was a few years ago call Project MATCH. Which professionals have sold it as a research in validity of certain modalitis, but it is not really. Beside I am sure that the data is not conclusive and they have just gotten started in that area. A lot of misinformation have gone around this research.

But I've heard the various comments, that medical aids are not true recovery or those who state, oh I am going to save so and so from those 12 step people. I never could grasp either as being productive trains of thought for my own recovery, thankfully!

Okay, I am not sure how I can respond or even explain it. What you have to really take a look at is whether you have really received the results you wanted or are you just willing to endorse the 12 Step program the same way that people have endorse Shark Cartilage for the treatment of Cancer, there have been all kinds of cocky and charlatanic claims endorsed by many people that says that they are satisfied customers..... I have bad news. neither endorsement

There are many variables that go unnoticed like the PT Barnum, a sucker born every minute. Just because a well meaning,

I have yet to see a well developed research that states that the 12 Steps cause recovery. There does not seem to be much if any correlation analysis between the 12 Steps and recovery. The numbers are just too small, and what professionals and those who said have recover with it blame it on the patient when they do not get the same results. When they use to do bloodletting and practice Phrenology they blamed it on the patient too. When the patient got better it was the treatment, when the patient did not it was the disease or some characteristic of the patient that keeps those wonderful do-gooder counselors from getting results.

I am sorry I just do not trust Faith Healing that much and that is what it seems to me that is what the 12 Steps are offering. Religious indoctrination not treatment

But, to each their own!

Listen, bupernorphine works, right? At least for most of us, it has efficacy. Now some people might not like it, they prefer methadone (but that has effficacy too). But the fact is that it works for all of us or at least a great majority of us. And as we go thru bupernorphine treatment we learn more and learn about the research available. Why aren't we willing to have the same thing happen for all of us?, or at least a great number of us.

Treatment either has efficacy or it does not. And 12 Steps does not seem to have much, when the Triennial Report tells that only about 5% of those people who start in AA and I say most likely crosses over to NA, do not stay in at the end of one year. They claim that a lot of them come back, but I have not seen the data to tell us that. It seems to be more conjectures. There is a lot of Conjectures in treatment

So long as ones recovery works for them, then maybe it is the correct thing!

Mike
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Unread 01-24-2011, 02:04 PM   #8
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good answer

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Originally Posted by OhioMike View Post
Instead of picking apart different recovery tools, maybe the interesting question would be what constitutes a healthy personal treatment plan?

Most treatment plans done at facilities are actually xrox copies or cookbook type. I find patients know more about what they want than the professional is will or allow.

If peer support in not valid in recovery (treatment), then what is the purpose of this web site?

I am not too sure that we are talking about the same thing. I have no proble with networking. But I do have difficutly with a lot of self help groupy stuff. Experience and opinions are nice but when it comes to treatment it becomes worthless. May therapis operate from intuition and hunches not from research supported information.

Sure it shares factual medical information, but, that can be done without the message boards!

Further, since this disease is not limited to merely biological issues, wouldn't one be hard pressed to rely solely on medications which only address biological symptoms.

Bionlogical or genricas dose not always equal to disiease, at least not disease as we think about it. It is not like a fever not even like diabetics. I have no problem with the biology I doubt the whole concept of diesease, but that is not really an issue, the fact that it is a problem to me that is sufficient. I do not have to pathology it and I have a lot more to say than I have time because I am at a time library computer now.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that "treatment" / "recovery" is made up of any tool which can help the individual move forward with healing in a positive and proactive fashion, no matter what tool is used.

Tools have to be effective some have not ben show to be effective except from peoples stories and experience not from actual data

And just possibly, I mean maybe, recovery is a bit different for each of us!


Maybe, sure
goog
But I've heard the various comments, that medical aids are not true recovery or those who state, oh I am going to save so and so from those 12 step people. I never could grasp either as being productive trains of thought for my own recovery, thankfully!

But, to each their own!

So long as ones recovery works for them, then maybe it is the correct thing!

Mike
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Unread 01-25-2011, 10:59 AM   #9
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But I've heard the various comments, that medical aids are not true recovery or those who state, oh I am going to save so and so from those 12 step people. I never could grasp either as being productive trains of thought for my own recovery, thankfully!

But, to each their own!


So long as ones recovery works for them, then maybe it is the correct thing!

Mike

Ohio:
I do not mind being questioned, in fact I consider it like a peer review, so there is no problem with your questions. But let me give you some thoughts on some of the presuppostions you make and some of the comment that you so respectfully made.

You are right, if you have any doubt, I want you to know I do have a lot of problem with the way that AA says and how it is being practice. Because it is force for people. And no matter who many times you hear it in meeting and how many ringers and fuzzy attemps are made that it is a Spiritual Program not a religion. I know enough about religion to see all the characteristics of religion it has. And that Spritiuality and Religion are in fact synonyms. Even though anyone try's to justify that it is. Those who do, obviously have difficulty with not wanting to think that they are getting some value from religion and they do not like it. So people have become religious after the 12 Step Program, and some have become radically zealoze and want everyone else to think like them. I resent when in treatment I am suppose to change the way I look at the word.

Treatment is not about the treatment staff, treatment is not about what they like, what they think works, it is not about their favorite theory and what taste good to them. Treatment have always been by all other medical standards what have been studied and have found that it has taken the bias away and now it becomes clearler about what is really effective no about a cheap slogan "It works if you work it".

I find that AA/NA is all to be accepted at face value and not one iota of evidence exist that it does any thing they say it does. I do not see it as AA says it does. If
you believe that it does something for you I can live with your dillusion. But I have difficutly when federal monies are being use to promote something that really does not work. You should have gotten the hint by now, that it is not as effective as they claim. If you have heard it in meeting "Many will be call but few will be chosen", or tell you like they say hundreth of time in treatment "only 2 or 3 out of one hundred of you are going to make it." I am afraid the are telling you the truth. Imagen all medial treatment operates the same way, the fact is tha tin 70 years they have not have a brakethough. And they rather blame it on the patients, when the fact is that accountability belongs to the professional not the patient. See how suboxone works? or naltrexon for alcoholics? maybe you'll understand better what I am talking about and about the disappointment that I am about all of this Kaka.

I am very suspicious that for 70 years AA never wanted to have their programs studied scientifically, "as all we need to show effectiveness is a Higher Power".
Now that the FEDS and Insurace companies are saying you have to show
research evidence (like any other medical treatment ) that it in fact have efficacy and to confuse the public all proponents are running to prove that it does work.
What happens is that Americans have very littel undestanding of Science so you all can be fool extremely easily. AA is showing all the characteristics of pseudoscience when it becomes treatment. I can not accuse AA membership if they do not call it treatment. When they say it is not treatment is not pseudoscience given that they do not consider themselve science. But when it becomes a treatment protocol used by facilities it is Pseudoscience.

I can assure you, that the incompetency of 12 Step Staff and the poor treatment apprpaches I received in treatment when I was on methadone had dabatated effect on the type of staff that had no idea what the **** they are doing. Yes I am angry, but I have all reason and justifiable anger, for believing them and put my life in their hands. I consider it a professional betrayal for many reasons.

There is a lot more to say. What I learned in the last few years it totally disappointing about the amount of pseudoscience that substance abuse patients have to put up with. I am piss, yes I am piss.
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Unread 01-25-2011, 11:04 AM   #10
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Take what you need and leave the rest is a slogan that one can take. I am sober over 22 years and know many others who owe a great debt to AA so I will never put it down however AA should take it's knocks where it fits.


I am begining to ignore many of this cheap slogans that AA people use. Althoug it should be true, and I am sure that some members do practice it. But when you take what one may need and leave the rest, and make the mistake of sharing that. You requently get a respond like "keep coming back", so you can hear it again and see if yoiu get to believe it just by repetition, not by the truth or whether it works.

I find that a lot of those slongs are paying lip services and their practice is not eaqualy so. Go ahead and look, I don't want to walk on your head. But in my expirince quite a bit of those slong (not all) have very wiard responses when one practices it.
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Unread 01-25-2011, 11:11 AM   #11
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Who offered to perform scientific or medical research on AA/NA, and who was it that refused to let this be done? Also, when did this happen? The only 'headquarters' for AA is the General Service Office in New York, and the people that run it are simply common members-there is no one in charge of these organizations.


I'm just curious about the attempted scientific research, that's all.

-------------
Well, I can not give you dates and time. But I can tell you that in 70 years of AA not much research have been done about its efficacy. The very typical pseudoscientist responds have been, we do not need research besides what we do have littel to do with science, or all we need to prove our efficacy is out higher power.

I suggest you read or find some of the works by Hester and Miller. Until I read the Manual for Alcoholism: atlernative treatmetn approach. ,not the correct titlle. but close. I realized how poor, lax and ammateur is AA treatment. H & M has been doing resarch on alcohol and addictdion since 1970 at Univedrsity of New Mexico. They have had difficutly finding valid AA reseach, you can email them and they will respond. My time is runing out got to go.
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Unread 01-25-2011, 11:24 AM   #12
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You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the 12 steps. If it isn't for you, what is the point of picking at it?
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Unread 01-25-2011, 02:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
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You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the 12 steps. If it isn't for you, what is the point of picking at it?


Because I am not too sure that it is really good for anybody. We keep hearing. If it isn't for you? It may be good for someone else. I use to believe that too. We have had lot of answers but we do not have many results do we? We have grate explanations why we do not get better. Many of the things that we think are true about treatment for alcohol and a drug is what we have been told by 12 Step treatment centers. All I am asking is to start to question it. That is the way science and treatment results get better.

Another answer to your question is: Because everything in the world gets to be question, like you just asked me a question about my reasons. I could say, if you do not understand what I am saying, why are you asking me? But I am civil enough unlike twelve steppers that it you ask them a question. They ask you sarcastically how long you being clean? or how many times you being to treatment? As if it was a relevant issue. At the same time manage not to answer your question. I think that you have the right to ask questions without getting and intimidating sarcastic answer. If they do not know the answer, then they should shot up, rather than insult the patients.

Simply because we know very little about science. The twelve steps make people think that they become amateur psychologist and know all kinds of things that are not true. And when you hear members or 12 Step staff members why else? Because they are a dominant group that is keeping real treatment from coming to terms. It is archaic, amateur and lead people into believe that they are getting a service that they do not. Members become abstinence and they think that now automatically they become experts at

The 12 Steps simply does not work and give people the illusion that they are getting something for nothing. Unfortunately our brains have a tendency to lie to ourselves, and there is a whole bunch reasons I have difficuties explain to you. but I hope that you are tolerant enough to put up with some of what I am saying. I think you are asking because you really want to know, although perhaps annoyse you a little.

Again, we have the right to get treatment that has been scientifically, and rigorously study empirically. In the same way all other medical treatment from an antibiotic, surgery, x ray, anything imagened has in medical treatment has gone true rigourus testing .

Imagine going to a doctor for an infection and he ask you to start working the steps. You do not realized it but there is a lot of people being harm for not getting appropriet treatment. Is call medical error, look it up.
Read the steps, no of them give you an idea about how to become abstinense from alcohol or drugs. It is about inductrinating you to get a "Spiritual Awakening" (as the results of this steps)

But let me tell you something, I am not just down about the 12 Step. I am down at anyone in my profession that keeps making all kinds of grandiose claims and spit out information that are not true and it is based on any scientific methodology. I think I have the right to protect the patients and the profession. Don't you think you have the right to good treatment based on fact not on religion? You have been buying everything you know at face value, and I am asking for you to become an educated consumer and start question everything, I mean everything that have been told to you in the past 30 years about substance abuse treatment and drug education. Some things are accurate, but you will really be surprise how much garbage they have been telling us and we have been buying at face value.

And this so call "professionals" give a bad name to those that are working real hard and studying their scientific journals to make sure they can provide us with the best service they can. While this lazy asses, have not read a Scientific Journal of their professions since the left college. They think that they have some kind of trained intuition or hunches that gives them the right to make up shit and call it treatment, whether it harms the patient or not. We are being ripped off and you do not know it.

But the may reason I an picking at this is because I think you deserve and answer worthwhile to considered.

Find out the characteristics of pseudoscience and beging to look at the 12Steps as a treatment protocol and then tell me if it does not meet chritieria.

Hope you understand what I am saying. Trust me I am not bitching just for bitching. I am concern for all of us in treatment.
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Unread 01-25-2011, 02:52 PM   #14
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I like the premise you make and AA needs to be looked at. There is a lot of bad stuff in AA. Then again, science and technology have done little to stop addiction. We do not hear lenghty agruments from you about that.

I applaud your research but just like the fella who writes "The orange papers" when does the "intrest" in the ineffectivness of AA become an obession unto itself?

My view is AA helped me. 23 years later I go to AA because I have a lot of friends and it is a fun social thing to do. If I help someone along the way, Yea! if not, where's the real harm?

Just trust God or Anything to assist you and be guided by good works and principles.

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Unread 01-25-2011, 03:08 PM   #15
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http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...cons/icon1.gif It's like you read my mind!!!!
I have strted on my associates in Psychology so one day I hopefully can counsel others with addiction issues. I have many problems with AA,NA actuall any 12 step group. They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world. My favorite point came when I asked a 12 stepper if AA means no booze EVER, NA means no more dope, then I said how sorry I felt for those poor OA(overeater anonymous nenbers who are surely starving concentration camp style cuz surely that means they must never evr eat again. I laughed my ass off and made the person say "what do they learn to do with their food consumption"? CONTROPL HOW MUCH THEY EAT DUH!


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http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...cons/icon1.gif It's like you read my mind!!!!
I have strted on my associates in Psychology so one day I hopefully can counsel others with addiction issues. I have many problems with AA,NA actuall any 12 step group. They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world. My favorite point came when I asked a 12 stepper if AA means no booze EVER, NA means no more dope, then I said how sorry I felt for those poor OA(overeater anonymous nenbers who are surely starving concentration camp style cuz surely that means they must never evr eat again. I laughed my ass off and made the person say "what do they learn to do with their food consumption"? CONTROPL HOW MUCH THEY EAT DUH!
I have strted on my associates in Psychology so one day I hopefully can counsel others with addiction issues. I have many problems with AA,NA actuall any 12 step group. They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world. My favorite point came when I asked a 12 stepper if AA means no booze EVER, NA means no more dope, then I said how sorry I felt for those poor OA(overeater anonymous nenbers who are surely starving concentration camp style cuz surely that means they must never evr eat again. I laughed my ass off and made the person say "what do they learn to do with their food consumption"?
----------------------------

Let me turn you own to a couple of books you should consider reading:, I became alarmed when I learned that 70% (that is a significant majority) of all PhD Psycholgist do not read scientific journals of their professions and I suspect they haven't science they left college. I think the 12 Steps should consider move to the sides, like any other medical treatment SCIENCE IS THE FUTURE OF TREATMENT.

House of Cards:Psychology and Psychotherapy Build on Myth by the late Robyn Dawes. Just died December the 12, 2010 a bit over a month ago. But his contribution to the science of pscychology will never be acknowledge, but he has my hat off and a standing oveation. He open my eyes and made me cry a few times, because I suspect that was the way things were and he put a voice to my concerns.

Science and Pseudoscience and Clinical Psychology (eds)Lilifeld <he does not know it but he is my mentor, there are four other editors with him

This two books I read once and about a year later I read again and I felt of my chair when I realized all of I missed the first time.

Welcome to you Brain, I do not remember their name one is a women whose names starts with a dobble "A" and some chinck with Wong last name buth are top of the line neuroscientist, but do not get scare, they wrote this book for the lay men, and I could stop lauphin about all the myth we think we know about the brain. LET ME START YOU WITH A NEW ONE. Alcohol does not kill brain cells. that is a real mother to acknowledge because 12 Steps treatment center keep saying that it does.

Manual of Alcoholism; alternative treatment approach Hester and Miller this is a bit higher level reading. this two guys have been doing research of the literature and research since 1970 University of New mexico. when I read this book I realized how full of shit the 12 Steps are and how amateur they are. and how it is that they have been fooling themselves and everyone else. The arrogancy kills me.

If yoiu want more I give you more but I think this is a good start
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Unread 01-25-2011, 04:11 PM   #16
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Hi Carlos:

Have you considered the idea that people live and breathe at different levels of existance and intelligence? Some people simply need to hear a lie over and over again until it becomes truth to them. They benifit from it. Lies will destroy the trust of other people. The end just might justify the means as far as AA/NA is cocerned,,,,In my opinion.

God Bless
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Unread 01-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #17
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I must agree with alot of what Carlos has said. Do I think AA has worked for people? Yes, I believe it has, I have 2 parents and a step father who've been active in AA since I've been alive. I've also seen to of them go back out in active addiction on more then 1 occasion. But it seems to be what has worked for them, and the fact that my parents are here and alive today is what counts in my book.

With that said...2 years ago, I attended a 30 day rehab which was 12 step based. At the time I was in bad WD's and just needed somewhere to go to help me get thru it and help me get out of active addiction. At the time I entered treatment, I wasn't against trying a 12 step program to help me keep my addiction in remission...why should I be, being I've seen it work for the most part to 3 of the closest people in my life. This treatment center also used Suboxone for detoxing all patients addicted to opiates and herion...but were very much against anyone using Sub for long term treatment. I was told on more then one occasion how people can't use sub long term b/c all it does is lead to addiction and doesn't work.

Anyway, after the worst of my WD's was over and I was able to actually listen and focus on the treatment plan they laid out for me, I realized that these people were using the fact that I was an "addict" and only "sober" for less then 30 days as something against me, and honestly belittled me. They were the "experts" and we all knew nothing, and their way, the 12 step program, is the ONLY way anyone has ever been able to stay sober. As my 30 days came closer and closer, I had so much anger in me from the way the people there spoke to us and made us feel like we were ignorant and unable to do anything, I honestly felt like the treatment center was more of a cult then a place to help me get better. They admitted that only 2-3 of us in the room (of probably around 75+ people) would make it out there without relapsing and going back into active addiction. So if they knew this already, why did they drill their ways of doing it in our head, and why did I spend SO much money ono being admitted to this place with them KNOWING I would probably fail once I got out?!

I tried to attend meetings once I got out tho, b/c I was going to show those people (especially my case worker who told me straight to my face I was not going to make it) that I could do it, and I would! I felt so uncomfortable at every meeting I attended b/c I felt like an outsider, and it was so hard to find someone willing to talk with me in a friendly way, how on earth was I suppose to find a sponsor?

I guess those people were right, b/c within 6 weeks I was back in active addiction. I read the big book, did the step work, got rid of old contacts and things that cause cravings. I still was unable to succeed in their 12 step world. It's not eay, and I knew it wasn't for me, but I wanted so bad for it to work for me b/c I knew if I relapsed it could be my last chance and I may not have made it out again alive. So, I found AA/NA was not for me. The way they ran it, the step work they said you had to do, which I didn't see the purpose in. I find that being on Sub, seeing my doctor monthly, doing meetings online, seeing a therapist, and continuing to work on changing my life on a day to day basis make far more sense to me then the 12 steps ever did.

I am happy to still have my parents, and I see them active in the 12 steps and going to meetings on a regular basis. If it's what works for them and it's what keeps them here in life with me, then more power to them! It's not easy tho, and it took a lot of time away from me while I was growing up and gave me many resentments b/c my mother went to meetings and was closer to her sponsor then she was my sister and I. I just can't see something like that taking all of my time and me having to run my world around it. I really agree with majority of what Carlos has posted. But even tho I don't agree with the way the program is, and def don't believe that the treatment center I went to should be ran the way it is...I know that it has saved peoples lives. But I've also seen it work more with people who had alcohol addictions WAY more then people who were addicted to pain pills or herion.

Just my 2 cents on it all.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 06:25 PM   #18
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Hi Carlos:

Have you considered the idea that people live and breathe at different levels of existance and intelligence? Some people simply need to hear a lie over and over again until it becomes truth to them. They benifit from it. Lies will destroy the trust of other people. The end just might justify the means as far as AA/NA is cocerned,,,,In my opinion.

God Bless
Ron

Bird let me suggest that all you need to do is begging to question every thing you have heard about Substance Abuse treatment starting at around 1980. Nothing biggy. The real problem is that pseudoscience always causes harm. If any thing waste people's time in getting a treatment that truly works for them.

You remember the Myth of Methodone by Emmitt Emitt PhD Emmitt is the one that informed me that their was a lot more myth about Alcohol and Substance Abuse treatment than we realized and the more we know about it the better we are off. Whose treatment is it anyway? Yours of treatment Staff. Do not let you head get all full of smoke by questionable and unethical practice

http://www.methadone.org/namadocuments/es03myths.html

http://hubpages.com/hub/The_Truth_Ab...yths_Dispelled

Believe me there is a lot of rubish out there about substance abuse treatment that is not in our best interst. And be careful, you are right there will be some Myth publications that are more like public relations to get patients to go in for treatment.

All I am saying is that we need to start asking, has this being substantiated by research. An again we need to be careful, we going to have to start reading about science like a hobby and learn what make good research and what is just garbage.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #19
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I must agree with a lot of what Carlos has said. Do I think AA has worked for people? Yes, I believe it has, I have 2 parents and a step father who've been active in AA since I've been alive.

I personally have my doubts if AA works at all, but you know what I am glad like you, that your family member and most important people have been able to reach abstains and that they keeping themselves clean and sober.

When a therapist the a treatment center asked me what will I tell people that have gone to AA and claim that it is keeping them solver? his response to the fact that I outright told him that I did not see any efficacy in AA. I strongly told him that I would congratulate them, because they have been able to keep themselves clean and sober against all odds. Obviously that did not go well with him, but it still nevertheless the truth. He then tried his best to keep me from talking to other patients about what I have learned. This is the kind of guy that will later claim that he would put his life down for freedom of speech.

The reason that empirical research tries their best to control the placebo effect is that the number are extremely low (like 2 or 5 out of 100) and this may cause the research to become less valid and reliable.People for the most part do not understand the placebo effect. Given that most people who stop using drugs (about 20% of all who quite) do it without treatment and AA <something AA do not want to admit) compare to 2 or 5%, it give me the impression (not an absolute compelling conclusion), that AA in fact does worse than placebo. I think (not absolutely sure) that what happens is that those people who quite without treatment, the 20% of the population, where “lucky enough” and was able to by coincidental learning they were able to understand, knew and deal with those things that that made them use. They did not needed any Spiritual Program, or any Power Grader than themselves, they just did it whatever they figured out, wish I knew what were the real determining factors (like everybody else I suppose). I am not an atheist by the way, I am a Traditional Catholic, but I am a rational human being that believe in human and civil rights. I know the damage that religion can play in people’s lives (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Franco’s Regime most religion have a dark history somewhere). In religion you cannot get more orthodox than Traditional Catholics and I care about us. I have seen how religions, including AA, dominance can cause devastating effects when one becomes discontent. AA can be dangerous, except that we do not see it. Given the way we have been indoctrinated, we do not see it, provided you stand in AA posture and attitudes.

Instead the paradigm that exists today says that we are a whole bunched of disease and incapable people (and we believe them). Given the difficulty that most of us (including me) have tells me that the reason we go to treatment is because we do not know how to quite, something overwhelmed us and we go to treatment hoping that we learn how to quite. But instead we receive a lot of misguided information, indoctrination and theories without empirical foundations. They keep saying that AA is a simple program for complicated people. I think it is reverse that it is a very complicated program (you have the steps, you have a whole bunch of sarcastic wisdom) and we patients attempt to simplify everything because understanding all the science behind the actual science behind what really works is a great number of facts and principles.

There is a few things that I learned recently, 1) most psychotherapy have no effect on abstinence (that is a bitch because most people believe that it does) about the only effective treatment is Cognitive Behavioral the best being rational emotive by Albert Ellis, Behavior Modification, and outright Behavioral Therapy. The problem is that most therapist in treatment present themselves as experts in this approaches when in fact most of what they do don’t fallow the standards and the fidelity required to obtain results. They take a weekend course and then declare themselves experts in this area. It does not work that way. Let me give you an example. My primary, directly told me that he was one of the best cognitive behavior therapy in Miami. When I started to look and see was it that he practices, his concept of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy was standing in front of the group and yell at the top of his lungs with his hands cup in front of his mouth like a megaphone “Just say noooooooooo to drugs” He actually believes that because he had a masters in social work and had a license that gives him the right to make up any shit and call lit therapy even though whatever he is doing is not supported by research.


I admit, I do not have a lot of evidence to reach a compelling conclusion that AA actually does nothing. I just know of a few studies I can quote, that AA does not do everything they claim. When you listen to clinical practitioners, one gets the impression that beneath what they are doing is base on some kind of science. But the more I look, the more I discover that there is not much science behind a lot of what they proclaim.

I suspect more than anything else that it causes relapse. Yet I do not know specific all of the variable, method or process that is it that may cost relapse. About a decade back (so treatment facilities if they would be science oriented like they are suppose to do), I believe was Hester and Miller and Ludmila Bakhireva, M.D., Ph.D <I think we should keep an eye on this two prestigious researcher) were the researcher in an outpatient facility looking for the variable that causes relapse in outpatient treatment program. The results [that I believe has been replicated] <done again and again). 1) The first variable was the "inability of the person to cope with the emotions, events and other negative conditions". Not knowing what to do when a physically and emotional powerful events occurs, instead of drug or alcohol

The second one that now I understand and can see why, but I did not understand it before is 2) is "the personal believe that you have an incurable disease for which one is powerless".

I do not know exactly how they did the study but I do believe that the study was replicated and the conclusions had a high degree of validity and reliability <One needs to know what that mean and not all of us understand what this encompass) There is evidence that there are generic and hereditary factors associated with drugs and alcohol use. In my thinking just because there is generic and hereditary factors, does not automatically means it is a diseases. It is possible that we call it a disease for two reasons. One the word disease is appealing to most doctors and health related professional. Here again, is the factor of repetition over and over again that we hear that it is disease, but we are not clear about what all of this consist of… There are many factors that do not fit a disease modal. For way over 70 years we have called it a disease, technology have not been able to come up with a diagnostic test to prove that you and I have the disease and other people do not. Nor can we test for how much or the strength of this disease (a simple example, a thermometer measure how much of a fever you have while other may not have a fever) nothing like this exist in alcoholism even though we have called it a disease of over 100years. They say it is a progressing disease and that it may terminate with death. Well, the problem is that perhaps all is not most behavior is progressive and if taken to extreme like alcoholism or addition it may lead to death. For example we first start crawling, then we stand up, then we take a few steps then we start to walk, then we learn to run. If we take this action to an extreme, I mean a real extreme like alcoholism or addition. A person who starts training can run himself to lose dehydration and many other physical abnormalities that can trigger death. So does driving, what can drive fast enough and some people become experts and racer and people can crash and die from driving fast. I suggest that all behavior taken to its fullest extreme can lead to death. Now, how much of a percentage is a different question with a different answer. But it is nevertheless true that extreme sport are call extreme because the dangerous associated with that sport.

There are many many other issues that I can question rationally. Admitently I am a fallible human being, so I do not mind making a mistake and but I am fairly certain that most of this factors are accurate. I may be wrong in some. I am willing to discuss these issues with respect and sensibly fashion. Why? Because we are talking about our lives and the more we justifiably question what our treatment is about because its effectiveness is extremely questionable. When too many people are motivated and they relapse there is something wrong and I suspect it is the program. In any treatment with the kind of numbers that exist will look at the program first and if it was reverse, only two people do not get the program while 98 do. Then we look at the patients and see what is it about the patient that is keeping use from getting equal result.

I just do not see any mechanism of change in empirical validity with in AA


listen and focus on the treatment plan they laid out for me, I realized that these people were using the fact that I was an "addict" and only "sober" for less than 30 days as something against me, and honestly belittled me.

Bingo!!!, they think you are a numskull brain-dead rat. The fact that the treatment plan is suppose to really be individualized is meaningless to them. Beside they writing treatment plans and without asking you much of what you want, they insult our intelligence by insisting that they are the professional and because your “reasoning is faulty” they have some kind of right to make life changing decision in your life. When research states that the large majority of patients do know quite a bit about what they want and all they need is for someone to facilitate them goals. The do it as a Cookbook, and they actually have a book with a whole bunch of statement on it. And they do no more than Ini mini maini mo and write things that look like it maybe plausible that may fit you. But forget about creativity, or just actually be an inform eclectic like Hester and Miller call it. Mine wanted me to backdate my signature, and of course if I did not do it I was uncooperative.


They were the "experts" and we all knew nothing, and their way, the 12 step program, is the ONLY way anyone has ever been able to stay sober. As my 30 days came closer and closer, I had so much anger in me from the way the people there spoke to us and made us feel like we were ignorant and unable to do anything, I honestly felt like the treatment center was more of a cult then a place to help me get better.

Co~oooooooo, men you most have been at the same treatment center I was at. Maybe they are just a clone not a cult jajjajajaja. They are experts at nothing trust me, read some of the stuff I recommend. These guys are top of the line; they are not just talking about substance abuse although they touch on it. It is very across the line about their profession (actually mine too; I am not a bar tender or a barber that would give you any opinion. If I do not know I most likely tell you I do not know or at least orient someone in some direction to consider.


They admitted that only 2-3 of us in the room (of probably around 75+ people) would make it out there without relapsing and going back into active addiction.

Ain't that the bitch?? They are clone they do it everywhere. They also make you responsible for it. It is not your treatment plan, not your treatment protocols are not even your ideas. Yet you are responsible for your own recovery. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? How many time have we hear the stuff about you are responsible for everything. They only take the credit when the outcome is positive. When a patient relapse it immediately blame it on the patient and present themselves as have not make any contribution, even though you follow their suggestions. I mean we do need a certain amount of responsibility <I myself stopped listening to them to keep me sane) I know that some of the shit they say if you accept the suggestion you are very likely to relapse....... How about, if you stop going to meeting, talk to your sponsor and stop working the steps you are absolutely going to relapse. Talk about brain wash.


So if they knew this already, why did they drill their ways of doing it in our head, and why did I spend SO much money one being admitted to this place with them KNOWING I would probably fail once I got out?!


They are in hope that one of us will make it. I stopped them and said when are you going to provide a technology where most of us will make it? They ****en scratch their head about that one.



I tried to attend meetings once I got out though, b/c I was going to show those people (especially my case worker who told me straight to my face I was not going to make it)

Well, I can tell you from observation and I looking for a way to create a research study. They can predict worth a shit anyway. The problem is that there are some people out there that are getting better results. And suboxone actually have more recovery than AA/NA combine trust me. I am off suboxone now; I had a relapse about got less than 3 years ago relapse twice for about a week a piece. But you know is not as bad as it use to be when I was up and running.




I guess those people were right, b/c within 6 weeks I was back in active addiction. I read the big book, did the step work, got rid of old contacts and things that cause cravings. I still was unable to succeed in their 12 step world.

And the Holy Ghost did not take the syringe out of your arm. I just do not believe that neither Bill nor Bob got any special providence to do any Spiritual Awakening. Yet most AA members believe that what they wrote had divine intervention. If it does, how is it that is no better than placebo? People stop and I think they do not realized they did it themselves; they were just around AA when they did it. But I am not going to argue with them. The brain has a tendency to lie to us and unless they understand that it is a waste of my time.



It's not easy, and I knew it wasn't for me, but I wanted so bad for it to work for me b/c I knew if I relapsed it could be my last chance and I may not have made it out again alive.


Listen trust, me I also wanted AA/NA to work for me. Realize that most of what they were telling me was rubbish.



So, I found AA/NA was not for me. The way they ran it, the step work they said you had to do, which I didn't see the purpose in, I find that being on Sub, seeing my doctor monthly, doing meetings online, seeing a therapist, and continuing to work on changing my life on a day to day basis make far more sense to me then the 12 steps ever did.

I am thinking of writing a book why Substance Abuse treatment does not work, even if you work it!!!, but I have not been able to chew everything that I need to know about the cognitive research that is necessary to explain the problem. There are way too many biases that we do not realize. And to tell you the truth I wish someone else would do it, I rather be sailing Biscayne Bay.


I am happy to still have my parents, and I see them active in the 12 steps and going to meetings on a regular basis.

Me too, I am glad you still have your parents.



If it's what works for them and it's what keeps them here in life with me, then more power to them! It's not easy though, and it took a lot of time away from me while

Like anything else whenever they make a technology that will be attractive, easy to use and practical way to know how to refrain we will all will. And I have the snicky suspicion that is coming soon. I have been reading a lot of pertinent information about evidence base treatment and research and it seem close than we realize. But we may need to take this AA/NA dominance and parading and pass it into history. I might be wrong but it looks like that to me.

I just hope that it will not take 200 years after Galileo presented that the world was round and that it rotates around the sun, before the pope admited that Galileo was accurate about his theory. He was made to recant what saying under the threat of going to the courst of the inquizition.



I was growing up and gave me many resentments b/c my mother went to meetings and was closer to her sponsor than she was my sister and I. I just can't see something like that taking all of my time and me having to run my world around it. I really agree with majority of what Carlos has posted. But even tho I don't agree with the way the program is and def don't believe that the treatment center I went to should be ran the way it is...I know that it has saved people’s lives. But I've also seen it work more with people who had alcohol addictions WAY more than people who were addicted to pain pills or heroin.

Just my 2 cents on it all.

I can live with your posture. But I have not seen any study that states that there is a correlation between resentment and relapse like AA implies. If there is one I have not seen the studies. Unless, you are saying that resentment leads to inability to cope. But if you can deal with your resentment I am fairly sure that it is not a cause of relapse.

I apologist if I fumed too much, I just had to convey these stanza from my soul.

But one last warning, I am already seen private treatment center were they are advertising themselves as being evidence based. When I contacted them as a posible patients. I learned that they knew about science what I know about enriching urenium. They are nearly as indoctrinating as AA is except that they do not used the word God.

Research based, wish is assert is the future of substance abuse treatment is not just not doing AA. It requires a familiarity with the science behind what really works. I have seen too many tricks that psychotherapist used to proclaim themselves science based. We as consumers will need to learn about critical thinking. I do not mean critizized for the sake of critizism. I mean having a foundation and a bases. Some times comman sense is not so comman. Nor so sensible.


Last edited by Carlos; 01-27-2011 at 11:59 AM..
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Unread 04-18-2011, 05:14 PM   #20
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I must agree with a lot of what Carlos has said. Do I think AA has worked for people? Yes, I believe it has, I have 2 parents and a step father who've been active in AA since I've been alive.

I have been looking and thinking at this issue for 20 years, when I initially thought that AA/NA was going to be an effective process to becoming clean. I have gone to plenty of meeting where proponents, keep saying that only 2 of 70 or 100 people in the room were going to be clean by the end of the year (They do not say anything about the end of the second year. I am not too sure they should announce this at all; to me it is an outrage of a number. And what I discover later is that, Hell, in treatment we had no control over the protocol, they are imposed on us. How can they blame us for the outcome? Our responsibility begins when we show up in treatment, and obviously we take on responsibility as we are provide with appropriate and valid information. This is the only medical treatment I know where the patient is made responsible for the outcome. That is the responsibility and the skill of the clinician not the patient. I can tell you and double check me, by for Opiate Depended people, Methadone and Suboxene has a lot more recovery than the 12 Step program.

In fact, I think that the 5% of AA is no more than the placebo effect. I have heard that 20% of the persons who quite their dependents do it WITH OUT TREATMENT. For those how know about Scientific Research. There are usually a number of variables that are tested. For example they will have one group that gets X Treatment and another that get Y Treatment, and then there is one group that gets NO Treatment at all but usually they keep them occupied with something irrelevant during the experimental period. This last group that gets no treatment at all is design to check for the placebo effect. Meaning that if the group of persons that get no treatment at all the number are higher, then the twelve step program may be doing worse than Placebo. I only have an untested hypothesis, but I have a suspicion that if the 12 Step is does worse than the placebo group, then it may be causing relapses. What you guys think? I know this is sort of a new idea, but I am sort of a stickler for science, and I find the whole thing deeply disturbing.

You know this is our condition, I think we have every right in the world to question, why some treatment just do not work. Neither Bill nor Bob where behavioral science, Bill was a stock broker and Bob a proctologist (an ass doctor, may just be coincident), but they knew about behavior what I know about enriching uranium <did I use this before, because it is still true). Those 5% are tiny and horrendously poor outcome. I have every reason to believe that it is pseudoscience and if I were you guys I would be looking and see what the characteristics of pseudoscience are. Here are a few to get you started:

1. Absences of self correction, as new scientific research findings are refined. (For example as new pharmaceutical researches are done new antibiotics and other available medication becomes available or while initially new surgeries and other procedures are consider experimental eventually new scientific studies cause them to become routine.)
2. Excessive reliance on anecdotal and testimonial evidence to substantiate claims. (Most meetings with 12 Step treatments are based on testimony. They called it sharing).

3. Evasion of the scrutiny afforded by peer review. (As noted by Hester and Miller, only two studies where sited about Alcoholic Anonymous [after 70 years of existence]. Proponents claim not to need validation as spirituality, and a Higher Power is all that is need to show the program’s effectiveness. It has been in the past few years that there has been a trend of third party payers stressing Evidence Based Treatment that proponents have been trying to attest to some sort of science behind the 12 Step approach. Most of the research has been trouble by methodological flaw and conflict of interest. Not all research is created equal in terms of honesty, validity and reliability. I seen too many of this studies were the conclusions where not consistent with either the design nor the data itself)

4. Absence of "connectivity" (Stanovich, 1997), that is, a failure to build on existing scientific knowledge.
5. Use of impressive-sounding jargon whose primary purpose is to lend claims a facade of scientific respectability.
6. Use of inadequate or made-up assessment theories that have not been tested or invalidated instruments.


We should look close and skeptically about this and learn a bit about science at least the concepts of science. We do not have to become brain surgeons, but we need to have a brain. We do not have to expect our treatment staff to be rocket scientist but they must be scientist.

To tell you the truth, think we have been deceived for too long, even me. You are not alone.
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Unread 05-20-2011, 05:52 PM   #21
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A friend said something funny about all this. She thinks that some of the distrust and/or rage directed at 12-step recovery is transference from the skeptic's religious background. She inserts the term "The Church" wherever the skeptic's says "AA" or "12-steps". She sounds like this: "The Church cannot prove its teachings scientifically. The Church just wants members so they can make money. The leaders in The Church are a bunch of old hypocrites who could are deceiving those who trust them." I tend to think she's right.
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Unread 05-22-2011, 10:18 PM   #22
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Before you use a "success rate" to beat down on AA, consider this. A medical survey was conducted. They asked physicians to report the "success rate" among patients who have a chronic, life-threatening conditions that can EASILY be treated through a few specific lifestyle changes. The conditions included asthma, hypertension, diabetes, and cigarette smoking. The docs said fewer than half were following the "program" a month later and almost none could be called success one year later. AA/NA compliance stood head and shoulders above these deadly physical diseases. So if AA is a dud, then so is the American Diabetes Association, the Heart and Lung Association, etc.
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Unread 05-23-2011, 08:18 AM   #23
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Sometimes you just have to laugh. Thanks for the giggles, guys.
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Unread 05-24-2011, 02:54 PM   #24
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Share the joke?
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Unread 10-07-2011, 05:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriendNdeed View Post
Before you use a "success rate" to beat down on AA, consider this. A medical survey was conducted. They asked physicians to report the "success rate" among patients who have a chronic, life-threatening conditions that can EASILY be treated through a few specific lifestyle changes. The conditions included asthma, hypertension, diabetes, and cigarette smoking. The docs said fewer than half were following the "program" a month later and almost none could be called success one year later. AA/NA compliance stood head and shoulders above these deadly physical diseases. So if AA is a dud, then so is the American Diabetes Association, the Heart and Lung Association, etc.

You are probably right. In 2001, the institute of medicine found that every year we killed 98,000 people in hospitals and clinics by conditions that could have been avoided. At a cost of 3 billions dollars and that does not count the wage lost to patients. Medicine itself is working on some strategies to resolve these problems.

My fear is that the same is not happening in the psychological and allied profession. There is way too much pseudoscience in psychology (look around and find out don't just believe me) and the American Psychological Association is acting complacently because they do not want to alienate the large portion of their memberships. When I found out that 72% of mental health practitioners do not read scientific journals of their field (and they probably haven't since they left college). (Butler, William & Wakefield,(1993)Obstacle to disseminating Applied Psychological Science, Journal of Applied & Prevention Psychology2, I am sorry, I am not usually an alarmist, but it alarmed me. I came to realized little by little that this clinical practitioners where actually making shit up and calling it treatment even thought there was frequently scientific evidence were they were suppose to be doing the opposite of what they were doing. An education and a license is not sufficient to make things up (and eight grader can do that) without any research data to back it up. While medicine have many objective test like blood test, diabetic, x-rays, scans, MRIs and numerous other test devices. Psychology does not have the same objective feedback, most of what is being use like patient’s statements etc. are full of biases. Like Dr. Howard Garb “Studying the Clinician <not the patient)” I know that assessment, diagnosis and treatment should be driven by rigorous scientific research. Our own human cognitions have way too many limitations, like conformational biases, hind sight biases and illusionary correlations. That is some of the reason why the world appear flat and the sun rotates around the earth, as an example

But the problem with AA is that in itself is not a treatment. It is a fellowship and should have stayed like that. It was never intended to become treatment. In the early 80s as Bill was about to died. AA members based on some of their steps and dogmas started walking into treatment facilities and ask for jobs as monitors. Some of those monitors stated getting more education and eventually some became practitioners and some even Directors of Programs. The problem is that given that it that intentionally these programs did not wanted to be tested for effectiveness. So we have such little data that it is even hard to evaluate. A program that has been around for 70 years with a pitiful amount of research, Not until recently when third party payers stated mandating Evidence Based treatment that some of AA proponents have ran around know just about nothing about science and have began to start doing studies CONFIRMING that AA works. The problem is that in any science including psychology. When a scientist does research, they do studies that refute as well and confirm the effectiveness. They change variables to see what works best. Most of the studies done by proponent may be able to fool most patients, because patients also know very little about science and the scientific process. Most of us would probably flunk high school science and that is why we are being con based on bogus numbers.

I suggest that we start looking at the difference between a Clinical Practitioners and a Scientific Clinician and begging to know why it is that way. When practitioners based their judgments and decision based on their own experience, we have found them to be a lot more fallible than we care to admit. This is not about ideology, and dogma this is about health. Our health and our treatment, and I again suggest that little by little start to learn little about science. Read a little history, a little how to, nothing heavy, but make sure that when you are reading science that you get the information from people with credibility and background in the science. I am beginning to seem treatment facilities and clinicians that are claiming them to be evidence based and talk about pseudoscience and all they are doing is using words to impress us.

What I am asking us to do is to stop making ourselves right and begging to look at what is in your best interest. You want to be treated by faith healing I do not mind, but for programs to do this as a general protocol I do not think that is fair to the patients, and there are not enough watchdogs in this area of medicine. My concern is that we are not getting what we are suppose to be getting as patients, and most of us pay good money for treatment.

Whose treatment is it anyway?

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Unread 10-18-2011, 10:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
You are probably right. In 2001, the institute of medicine found that every year we killed 98,000 people in hospitals and clinics by conditions that could have been avoided. At a cost of 3 billions dollars and that does not count the wage lost to patients. Medicine itself is working on some strategies to resolve these problems.

My fear is that the same is not happening in the psychological and allied profession. There is way too much pseudoscience in psychology (look around and find out don't just believe me) and the American Psychological Association is acting complacently because they do not want to alienate the large portion of their memberships. When I found out that 72% of mental health practitioners do not read scientific journals of their field (and they probably haven't since they left college). (Butler, William & Wakefield,(1993)Obstacle to disseminating Applied Psychological Science, Journal of Applied & Prevention Psychology2, I am sorry, I am not usually an alarmist, but it alarmed me. I came to realized little by little that this clinical practitioners where actually making shit up and calling it treatment even thought there was frequently scientific evidence were they were suppose to be doing the opposite of what they were doing. An education and a license is not sufficient to make things up (and eight grader can do that) without any research data to back it up. While medicine have many objective test like blood test, diabetic, x-rays, scans, MRIs and numerous other test devices. Psychology does not have the same objective feedback, most of what is being use like patient’s statements etc. are full of biases. Like Dr. Howard Garb “Studying the Clinician <not the patient)” I know that assessment, diagnosis and treatment should be driven by rigorous scientific research. Our own human cognitions have way too many limitations, like conformational biases, hind sight biases and illusionary correlations. That is some of the reason why the world appear flat and the sun rotates around the earth, as an example

But the problem with AA is that in itself is not a treatment. It is a fellowship and should have stayed like that. It was never intended to become treatment. In the early 80s as Bill was about to died. AA members based on some of their steps and dogmas started walking into treatment facilities and ask for jobs as monitors. Some of those monitors stated getting more education and eventually some became practitioners and some even Directors of Programs. The problem is that given that it that intentionally these programs did not wanted to be tested for effectiveness. So we have such little data that it is even hard to evaluate. A program that has been around for 70 years with a pitiful amount of research, Not until recently when third party payers stated mandating Evidence Based treatment that some of AA proponents have ran around know just about nothing about science and have began to start doing studies CONFIRMING that AA works. The problem is that in any science including psychology. When a scientist does research, they do studies that refute as well and confirm the effectiveness. They change variables to see what works best. Most of the studies done by proponent may be able to fool most patients, because patients also know very little about science and the scientific process. Most of us would probably flunk high school science and that is why we are being con based on bogus numbers.

I suggest that we start looking at the difference between a Clinical Practitioners and a Scientific Clinician and begging to know why it is that way. When practitioners based their judgments and decision based on their own experience, we have found them to be a lot more fallible than we care to admit. This is not about ideology, and dogma this is about health. Our health and our treatment, and I again suggest that little by little start to learn little about science. Read a little history, a little how to, nothing heavy, but make sure that when you are reading science that you get the information from people with credibility and background in the science. I am beginning to seem treatment facilities and clinicians that are claiming them to be evidence based and talk about pseudoscience and all they are doing is using words to impress us.

What I am asking us to do is to stop making ourselves right and begging to look at what is in your best interest. You want to be treated by faith healing I do not mind, but for programs to do this as a general protocol I do not think that is fair to the patients, and there are not enough watchdogs in this area of medicine. My concern is that we are not getting what we are suppose to be getting as patients, and most of us pay good money for treatment.

Whose treatment is it anyway?
Very good....my problem with n/a was that i am a christian and just couldn't swallow the "God of your understanding" crap. I started attending Christ centered aa/na and it was a little different. I felt more comfortable with it anyway. But a fellowship is what it is, definitely not a treatment. But, this is essential to the psyche when going through this. I have to tell you, i haven't been in 3 years, been on suboxone for approx. 4 or 5 years and i'm so frustrated that i'm ready to come off of it. I took pain pills, was addicted and got sick of it. I made the decision, with my doctor, to start suboxone treatment. Since my medical records are no longer private, everyone knows immediately what meds i'm on when i have to seek medical treatment outside of my doctors office. I have many issues with herniated discs in my neck, fibromyalgia, the list goes on and on. But currently have bursitis in my left hip. it is the most painful thing i have ever experienced. My last doctor retired, (unfortunately) but he understood that there were times that i would have to switch back and forth, and could just go back on suboxone when my issues had subsided. It was my choice to take suboxone rather than pain medicine. It has some pain relieving qualities. Anyway, I now have a new doctor who refuses to treat me for pain. If i go to the er they know immediately every medication that i take since medical records are now electronic. Taking suboxone is like having a scarlet letter on your forehead. I'm thinking of coming off of it all together. I'm tired of being judged. They immediately think that I am a heroin addict and do not deserve to be treated for pain. Any suggestions?
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Unread 11-15-2011, 03:07 PM   #27
sub hi
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Im very grateful for NA/AA. I needed another man to take thr time to teach me how to live right. I stopped growing up along time ago when drugs came in the picture and always kept running back. I needed to learn about myself and why do I continue to stay trapped in the same cycle. I understand its not for everybody but I dont no where I would be today without the program and I will be forever grateful to it. I dont think its fair to pick it apart as youve done its helped millions of addicts get clean. Their is no wrong way to get clean IMO, and I would never pick a part your method of cleaning up. I understand the whole God thing is alot for people and I respect that. What works for me may not work for you and thats alright. I just hope we all find the answer to our addictions no matter how we choose to recover / recieve treatment.
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Unread 02-12-2012, 02:24 PM   #28
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Im very grateful for NA/AA.... I dont think its fair to pick it apart as youve done its helped millions of addicts get clean... I just hope we all find the answer to our addictions no matter how we choose to recover / recieve treatment.
I agree that anything that works for you is alright by me. If you questioning the 12 step method, the link below is a good link that will make you think. It is a very long read and the source documents are at the very end.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

I choose to work my own steps kinda like the author of that link states...
"1. I admit that drinking and using has gotten to be a real drag, and I am suffering so much that it isn't any fun any more.
2. I quit, and I'm staying quit forever.
3. Some of my friends may help me occasionally, but I'm mainly going to count on myself.
4. Whenever I am tempted to relapse, I will think about step one again, and remember why I quit in the first place. I will also remember what happened the last time I relapsed."

Your choice to use 12 steps or not. I agree with you sub hi on the fact that we achieve addiction recovery by WHATEVER WORKS and keeps you sober.

Later
Dana
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Unread 02-20-2012, 10:12 PM   #29
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i agree with whatever works is great however i have my own set of issues with AA. I dont like the fact that I have to lie about being on sub and being on lexapro and sleeping meds. im not on narcotics and i dont take anything addictive. i dont think its conducive to my sobriety to have to lie about the very things that i need to talk about. i also feel that at the meetings i have gone to (which is probably around 100) they really emphasize the whole powerless thing, which is great for someone who is just taking the step to get sober but in reality im not powerless because i cme into contact alot with narcotics at work adn i make the decision to not use on a weekly basis and i feel that if i were powerless against this drug that i wouldnt be able to make that decision and i might say F it im powerless ill take this and its on my higher power. i like to have a little control, i for sure didnt have control when i was using but i have gained the tools to make myself powerful as opposed to powerless over drugs. lastly, i dont have an issue with alcohol, i hate alcohol, if i have on average 3 glasses of wine per month that is alot. i never like being drunk, i dont binge drink, i would much rather take a xanax as opposed to a drink but even if i went to NA in my town this woulndt be accepted and they would tell me i was in denial about my drinking problem. so frankly i would rather go to a counselor who is a professional then to a group of people who may share the disease but in reality i personally dont get any answers from. PLEASE ANYONE WHO AA WORKS FOR, PLEASE DONT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS. i have had some issues recently with my sub doc pushing AA on me and i have gotten kind of fired up about this. i dont hate AA im just saying why AA doesnt work for me as opposed to counseling.
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Unread 02-20-2012, 10:15 PM   #30
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also wanted to say i work in social services and i spend a lot of time trying to educate my co workers and to let my clients know that I am not the typical social worker and that I have alot more knowledge on teh topic of addiction.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 09:07 PM   #31
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Just for the record, I use suboxone and never had to lie in AA Not sure why one would lie about this. This does not mean I make it a point to tell everyone that I am on sub or antidepressants or the like who cares!

Find a group that really practices the traditions. AA is a great place to be if you know what it's for, As said it is not treatment, it has no "boss" it has no rules except saying it is for people with a drinking problem, even then there are "posers" who never drank! No one cares! AA is an internal thing one makes the principles a part of their life or not! I do'nt care if you come drunk, I don't care if your a druggie all i care about is you suffer,I can tell you what I did to get sober.

Just because you hear crap in AA it does not make AA crap, My God! AA is about as egalitarian a group as one can find yet folks pick it apart!

Oh they do not want to be tested by true scientific trials! So what? AA has nothing to prove, no axe to grind and no agenda to push contrary to the naysayers. So what if some AA's want to be counselors? If they pass the test or get qualified so what? Its not like AA headquarters is handing out AA jobs (other then the few that help AA run) Goodness if my goal in getting sober was to get a kooshy job at AA then I got a long wait lol

Ease up on AA go if you want to have a place to at least kill an hour with folks that may know how it feels to be addicted. Or, don't go! AA is a fellowship and not treatment and AA is not out to prove a thing. I read the orange papers and some here who donate far, far too much time in breaking down the evil of AA, I still cannot see the "why" of it. We have been to wars we had no business in, we have people still hungry in America and we are losing jobs. Spend time fixing that and leave AA to those who want it

Glen
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Unread 06-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theswan View Post

Just because you hear crap in AA it does not make AA crap, My God! AA is about as egalitarian a group as one can find yet folks pick it apart!

Oh they do not want to be tested by true scientific trials! So what? AA has nothing to prove, no axe to grind and no agenda to push contrary to the naysayers. So what if some AA's want to be counselors? If they pass the test or get qualified so what? Its not like AA headquarters is handing out AA jobs (other then the few that help AA run) Goodness if my goal in getting sober was to get a kooshy job at AA then I got a long wait lol

Ease up on AA go if you want to have a place to at least kill an hour with folks that may know how it feels to be addicted. Or, don't go! AA is a fellowship and not treatment and AA is not out to prove a thing. I read the orange papers and some here who donate far, far too much time in breaking down the evil of AA, I still cannot see the "why" of it. We have been to wars we had no business in, we have people still hungry in America and we are losing jobs. Spend time fixing that and leave AA to those who want it

Glen

I do have some issues with AA as a whole, but my issue is not with "the
Fellowshipe" as with treatment center and doctors being forceful, intimidating, coercive and retaliatory. And their believe that it is treatment. They can make any claim they wish and call it treatment, with
out having to show one iota of evidence that it is effective NOR SAFE.

You surely have the right to believe whatever religion you wish. That is
guarranteed under the constitution, but the same constitution protects me a minority from being force religiousity on me. The treatment centers
act as if they have gain immunity from the same rigourous standards
and scrutany applied to other form of health care.

If you have not noted is yet. The Buprenorphine we are taking have been
rigoursly study and continue to be study to produce progression (some thing very much missing in 12 Step Treatment). 12 Step is a "techonology" that is basically over 70 years old and it has stay the same without change because the dam thing is suppose to be perfect and have been inspired by the all mighty GOD. Just because Bill and Bob says so. I have not seen a day of pentacostal or anything like that given to Bob Wilson by
the all mighty. Having such poor effectiveness you would think that a
loving God would want to a lot better outcome than 2 or 5%.

If you have not notice, look up pseudoscience and then tell me if the 12
step do not meet such. So the issue is when it being force as a treatment, not if you personally want to go to their meetings etc.

Last edited by Carlos; 06-18-2012 at 04:05 PM..
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Unread 06-18-2012, 09:15 PM   #33
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Hello Carlos

Such a gap since last you last wrote. I'm done with AA defense I leave it to each to decide knowing meanwhile how much it has helped me. I went to a meeting last night my first since November so I'm not as "into it" as I once was. 25 years sober this November

God bless

Glen
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