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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:25 PM   #1
gotoffmdone
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Boy I thought this was going to be easy compared to other opiates. Usually I feel opiate wds pretty quick after taking the last one. But Sub is one sneaky drug. I was not feeling all that badly then wham. My family Dr has mailed me a Klonopin script(she dosen't call any schedule drugs in) and it should be here today. I hope it helps. At first I didn't think it was wds but the dry heaves, cold chills and terrible insomnia are hallmark opiate wd symptoms.

wayne

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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:31 PM   #2
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I been making due with 1 mg of suboxone for 2 days because I'm left w/o a doctor due to insurance change. I been trying to make due with what I have until I'm lucky enough to find a doctor and going from 8 mg to 1mg is a big step for someone thats been on it for 3 years and insomnia and feeling sick to my stomach is horrid. I'm afraid of relapse.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:34 PM   #3
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How low did you go before you jumped? When did you take your last dose?
I'm glad your doctor is sending you the rx for the kpins, that should definitly help. Could she call you in some nausea medication, too? Dry heaves are the worst.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 01:21 PM   #4
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I have had 10 mgs of Sub in the last two weeks. I really could not say how I tapered and from what dose I jumped. The thing is I could still be taking Sub at whatever dose I wanted or needed but the meds are just too costly. Getting off of opiates has never been a true choice as much of a necessity. I have just never experienced this before. Normally my wds are coming to an end after 5 days rather than just starting.
But I should have known this would happen it is along the lines of everything I have heard and read about Sub. I am not denigrating Sub just the cost. I am sorta angry at myself because there was no valid reason for me to use Sub to get off a 10 year Methadone habit then take this for 4 years. I control the nausea and trips to the toilet by not putting anything in my stomach. I am afraid those first 2 or 3 or 4 Klonopins are going to come back up.
wayne

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Unread 12-09-2010, 01:40 PM   #5
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I'm surprised the withdrawal is so strong. Do you have any sub? if you do 2mgs should stop the withdrawal if that's what it is. If 2mgs doesn't work it might be something else. Do you have a fever? How low dis you get before stopping? Amodium works great for...well you know.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 01:43 PM   #6
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I feel ya on the kpins coming back up, I would be afraid of that, too. You MAY want to do a test run with a tiny peice of cracker or something. You basically need to keep it down for about 30 minutes....
You know your other options, I'm sure.
I would seriously think about getting some nausea med, even otc, so you don't waste the kpins.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #7
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A little sleep would do wonders and that is what I am counting on the Klonopin for. If I can sleep through several hours of wds it makes it much easier. Everytime I have taken Klonopin it has been while taking Sub. I have never taken a benzo to help opiate wds. The only thing I know that eases opiate wds has been opiates. Staring at the clock all night and dreading to see daylight is not a fun way to live. If I don't post after about 5pm today you will know the Klonopin helped. Does anyone else think it is a chore to type while in wds.

I could get more Subs called in but I would just be prolonging the inevitable.
wayne

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Unread 12-09-2010, 02:02 PM   #8
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It's a chore to do ANYTHING while in wd's. I hope you get some rest!
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Unread 12-09-2010, 02:14 PM   #9
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Why not put the clonopine under the tongue. Wouldn.t that solve the nausea issue. ??
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Unread 12-09-2010, 02:14 PM   #10
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Hi Wayne, I'm so sorry to hear how horrible you're feeling. I know you said you're trying to control the bathroom trips, but please at least drink some water or even better, pedialyte or gatorade so you don't dehydrate and then feel alot worse. Get Immodium when you go to get your script if you don't have any already. You might want to check and see if they have Hylands Restful Legs - that's seems to have helped some people here if the RLS starts.

No offense, but I really hope we don't hear from you after 5:00 and you're sleeping.

Nancy
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Unread 12-09-2010, 02:39 PM   #11
gotoffmdone
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I am drinking water. I hope I am passed out after 5pm. I can't be sure the Klonopin script will be in the mailbox. It was mailed Tuesday and it takes a couple days so it should be here today but you never know. I dread driving to the pharmacy. The Klonopin script was written a week ago but I did not know that until I called about it being called in. I live in Athens Tn and my Dr is in Oak Ridge about an hour away.

wayne
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Unread 12-09-2010, 02:56 PM   #12
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I believe if I put the Klonopin under the tounge the taste would cause me to get sick.

wayne
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Unread 12-09-2010, 03:54 PM   #13
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Ew, no go on the under the tongue with the kpin, EW.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 04:51 PM   #14
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Damn Wayne, I hope they go away soon. I hear you on the "nothing gets rid of opiate withdrawals except opiates" ain't that the damn truth!!!! How would you compare the intensity of Sub w/d to say.. Methadone?
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Unread 12-09-2010, 08:23 PM   #15
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The one difference with what i went through with Methadone wds is i used Sub way too soon and precipitated 10 years of methadone use at 400mgs a day. In one fell swoop I let Bupe rip all that Methadone wds off my opiate receptors at once. The Sub was not a strong enough replacement hence the precipitated wds. That experience was the worst few days of my life. There has ben nothing compared to what I went through with the precip Methadone wds. But I believe that is the only way I could defeat the Methadone. There is no way I could have stopped the methadone and allow the wds to last for months. I am better at handling more intense pain for a shorter period of time than somewhat milder wds for an extended undetermined amount of time. But I surprised myself with what I was able to withstand with precip Methadone wds. It was true hell. By precipitating wds I seemed to turn the long acting methadone into a shorter acting version of an opiate. It took about a week to get over the worst part. In retrospect once the wds were pretty much over I should have d/c the Sub use and not stay on it for years. Afterall my goal was to stop maintenance methadone. Switching to Sub for years made no sense. But it was still a psychological game. I just had to know I was ingesting an opiate.

So comparing what I am going thru at this juncture is like comparing apples to rotten apples. Neither has been fun but nothing compared to precip Methadone wds. Of course what your are going through at any given moment seems to be worst case. But with precip Methadone wds I was prescribed Valium and Clonidine to help and they did nothing. More Sub was a waste with its ceiling effect properties.

I got off Methadone because I was tired of being held hostage by the drug. While Sub is a far cry from Methadone it is still an opiate that I became dependent upon and knew instictively that this day would come.

There were times when i had run out of methadone and it did not take 5 days to feel wd effects. That is the part of Sub that lulled me into a false sense of security that I was not going to go into wds. The Sub wds seemed to honest to God come out of nowwhere and that is something I was ill prepared for despite the liturature. It was wishful thinking on my part that I would escape wds from Sub. But each period of opiate wds seems unique unto themselves and at that moment they are the worse. The mind has a way of forgetting how bad things were. But I can tell you precip Methadone wds hands down was the worst experience of my life and I am amazed I came out of it with my life. But I haven't felt quite right since that point even while on Sub and that makes my continued use of Sub even more of a rediculous notion in my hindsight mind.

This is just another battle in a long, long personal war on drugs. I am in a lot of pain from back and shoulder problems that under ordinary circumstances would warrant opiates on a daily basis but I cannot handle them. The only reason I did not abuse Sub was it did not give me a buzz, another reason in my mind to not have taken it so long. It does no good to dwell on what might have been but I am notorious for that.

The Klonopin(at 3mgs) finally allowed me to sleep but only for a couple hours. But with benzos only a few hours of sleep leaves me feeling hungover to go with the wds. But all things being equal I would still prefer coming off Sub over Methadone but as i get older it becomes harder to deal with any physical adversity.

wayne
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Unread 12-10-2010, 07:52 AM   #16
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Hi Wayne, how are you today? Did you get any more sleep than those couple of hours - I hope so.

Nancy
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Unread 12-10-2010, 08:21 AM   #17
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Wayne, hang in there brother. Scary.
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Unread 12-10-2010, 08:30 AM   #18
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So you went from 8mg to 2-1mg of sub overnight? What a dreadful scene. I currently take 4mg one day, then 2mg for the next 2-3days, then back to 4mg. Doctor just prescribed me 2mg pill instead of 8mg pills. This, i feel, will take away the pressure to take 4mg each morning automatically because it's hard for me to bust a 4mg pill in half precisely. Now i will be able to take easily either a 2mg pill or if i'm feeling ballsy, bust one of them in half and try a 1mg dose to see what that feels like.

Best of luck and my prayers are with you. No matter what, no opiates!

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Unread 12-10-2010, 10:27 AM   #19
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Wayne,
I know what you mean by just d/c the Sub after getting off Methadone. The point was I couldn't have gotten off M'done on my own. I feel like I would've done that too. I also regret everything all together sometimes and wish I packed up and went to rehab while I was pregnant instead of getting on any ORT. I wasn't a heavy user. But I'm here now, oh well.

See, everyone's different. I would feel the Methadone w/d's in 2 days. I was only on 20 mg though. I've been through plenty of M'done withdrawals before (not precipitated) and I'm just hoping it won't be as bad. I always ask people this on this forum when they're withdrawing. I know some people on here went through it like it was nothing.

I'm really glad to hear you got some sleep! That is beneficial in w/d... because not sleeping for days just piles onto the emotional/physical aspect of it all. How are you feeling now? The worst for me was the RLS and crawling skin. Hopefully, you're not experiencing that. I really hope it blows over soon and you continue to post.

Get better soon,
Danielle
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Unread 12-10-2010, 11:40 AM   #20
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I did not go from 8mg down to 1 or 2. I did a taper from 8 to 4 to 2 then stopped for five days then took 2mgs more for a few days. Technically I stopped from 2mgs but I had a total of ten mgs in a two week period.

Overnight I ended up sleeping(or passing out) 3 to 4 hours at a time for a total of 9 hours. But it took 6 1mg Klonopins in a 12 hour period to accomplish that. The last Klonopin I had was at 3am. Right now I have a general feeling of the blaws with no energy. No dry heaves. I still have the cold chills while feeling hot. I can assue you guys one thing, I will never set foot in a Sub Drs office again nor will i go to a methadone clinic. The only way I will take pain meds for my back or shoulder is if I have developed a terminal illness and have been given months to live. Being dependent on any drug that you have no idea if you can contnue its use is not living. Waking up every single morning with the first thing on your mind being a pill is horrific. That was one of the things that used to separate Sub from other opiates. There were days I never gave Sub a thought. But that was as long as I had plenty. When the stash is at zero it is no different than any other opiate.

wayne

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Unread 12-10-2010, 02:15 PM   #21
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Hi Wayne, feeling any better as the day goes on? Is it possible for you to get out of the house and at least go for a walk to get some type of exercise, or are you in too much pain.

I hope you're starting to feel better.

Nancy
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Unread 12-10-2010, 02:22 PM   #22
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FIRST TIME I WENT 6 DAYS BEFORE THE WD'S HIT HARD! As for the klonopins you can take them w/water or anything. they almost melt in your mouth and taste minty. you can just chew em up and let them disove in your mouth,,they make some that are in a blister pack made just for that way of takin them, but you can do it with regular ones too. Ive been on them a year and you can let them disolve in your mouth or swallow,,either way they get in your system and will help.
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Unread 12-10-2010, 03:23 PM   #23
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My wife wanted to go grocery shopping so I took her. What an ordeal that was. She gets out very little and I usually go to the store for her. Today she had one hell of a list and not knowing the layout of the store I went back and forth from aisle to aisle and probably walked a mile. I was pissed. Finally I took the list from her and did it myself. My biggest problem right now is my stomach. I can't tell if if just aches or if it is spasms. My guess is the latter. I k now this has to get better at some point but that is little consolation right now.

I take the Klonopins with water. I just wish they would alter my mood but they never have or if they have they make me feel somewhat worse. I have not had enough Sub in the last two weeks to warrant feeling like this in my opinion. But I have been well versed in wds from hydros and oxys but Sub wds are a new experience. A lot of wds can be psychosomatic and as much physical as mental. But that theory has been shot to hell because I had convinced myself mentally that Sub wds would be rather mild. That has not been the case.

I in no way wish to discourage the use of sub. Just be practical. Unless you know you can sustain a maintenance program IMO you are better off using it in the short term. Of course that is just my opinion. I know the goal is to be in addiction remission but not going into wds is a goal as well. Sometimes you cannot plan a taper as not having access to Sub is thrust upon you.

I recall the time you had Tommy.

wayne
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Unread 12-10-2010, 03:34 PM   #24
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Wayne, I am sorry you are having such difficulties. I thought you said you were able to get another script for subs? If you are able to I really wish you would do so and then taper a little differently. IMO there is no reason why you should allow yourself to suffer so when it isn't necessary. There are other ways to become medication free rather then putting yourself through hell in order to try and accomplish it. Just MHO. I wish you the best.

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Unread 12-10-2010, 04:10 PM   #25
gotoffmdone
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Nan

I would love to get another sub script but we live on my wifes diability. My getting the Subs would be at the expense of my grandkids christmas

wayne
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Unread 12-10-2010, 05:14 PM   #26
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Well I hate to say it but I caved. I contacted my Sub Dr and they are going to call me in enoguh Sub for the weekend then have me come in first of the week. I hate that I could not ride this out and i fear i may have to go thru it again.

wayne
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Unread 12-10-2010, 06:33 PM   #27
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Hi wayne, Good for you! You cannot put a price on the value of your health and the quality of your life! I mean it. Your grandkids can still have a Christmas, at least they will have a Grandpa who is well enough to laugh and play with them, and that is important, more important than a bunch of material things that break! Don't think you "caved", I think you made a brilliant decision. Does the dr prescribe generic subutex? If not in the past maybe the policy is different now. Ask! Also, the films have a $75 off coupon so that should help there too. Anyhow, I am glad you are going to go at it in a different way-there is no reason to go through what you were doing to yourself. I am so, so glad that you made the call.

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Unread 12-10-2010, 08:30 PM   #28
gotoffmdone
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One thing that has and is not working for me is a slow steady taper. My plan is to not take Sub until a few days after the last one and at the point to where I feel wds coming on. I took 2mgs of Sub today. There is no reason for me to take Sub tomorrow or the next day or the next in the absence of wds. When the onset of wds strike then I will take my next Sub. Now if I can increase the time between my doses that IMO will work for me better than tapering and jumping at a predetermined time. Thats the plan.
Getting off of sub is doable. That has to be believed.

I want to thank all of you for your well wishes. This is the only support websight that I use and care to use. Other than myself there is virtually no negativity.
wayne

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Unread 12-10-2010, 10:53 PM   #29
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Nan to answer your question it is generic tex that I am prescribed. It took an act of congress to get my Dr to agree to rx anything but Sub/naloxone(luckily Nancy was a member of congress at the time and I guess that is why she gets the big bucks). I am only one of two patients the Dr is willing to depart from the prescribing of Suboxone. Feels good to be trusted but I think I have earned it. I have been nothing but honest. I did not even speak to the Dr or nurse practicioner today when i called. I asked for the office mgr and she told me the script would be there within the hour. I asked her if she wanted me to make a payment since I have not had to pay anything to them in over a year and she said she was not concerned about that. I was on the Free Meds program for a year. When the office mgr realized I had been paying an office visit all that year she refunded me the $600 I had paid.

Like I said earlier my Dr and his staff got all of his info from the RB rep and he did his best to dissuad any Dr in Tenn he could from prescribing generic Subutex, claiming patients were as likely to abuse it as any other opiate. The naloxone is there to prevent certain routes of administration and that is it. Some Drs think the naloxone is the most important ingredient and the rxing of subutex(plain Bupe) results in abusing the drug as if it was any other opiate. Thankfully the Dr's staff had an open mind and was willing to get a second viewpoint and I asked nancy if she would call them and set the record straight. The RB rep had told the Dr that 2 different Drs was hauled off to jail essentially for prescribing Subutex. After they spoke with Nancy they were no longer spooked. Had there not been a generic Tex and only the brand name I doubt the rep would have been so sneaky and decietful.

It is not hard to understand this guy's motive but at some point the patient needs to be put ahead of greed. There is no other word for it. I understand drug cos need for profit but be ethical about it for Christ's sake.

I am in no wds at the moment and I only took a 2mg tablet. I have no idea how much Bupe that actually translates too with the bioavailability and such. I still think this is the most amazing and unique opioid I have ever taken. It is amazing what can be done synthetically in a laboratory.

wayne

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Unread 12-10-2010, 11:28 PM   #30
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Gosh, wayne, I am so glad to hear you say you are in no wds right now. What a relief for you! Yes, I understand why the 2 mg was enough, you have had so little lately that the little bit did the trick. I like your idea of only taking it when you feel the withdrawals, and you might even try taking less than the 2mg and see if that will do the trick. I guess the bottom line is I am hoping you will be able to do it with very little discomfort. I know you can, it just takes a little bit of patience.

Yes, I remember now that Nancy called your dr about the subutex-what a deal, huh-so that should help out with the costs now, especially since you are taking such a small amount.

Well, wayne, I hope that you will be able to get a good night's sleep tonight, and that you just accept that sometimes we need medications for what ails us, if it happens to be suboxone right now, well, so be it! Take care and keep us posted. I am glad that you are feeling better!!

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Unread 12-10-2010, 11:34 PM   #31
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Wayne, I pray this passes quickly for you. It seems like from day one you have had some realy low points, it just doesn't seem fair. You deserve a break here. Your in my good thoughts and prayers.

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Unread 12-11-2010, 01:20 AM   #32
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Thank you Mike I do appreciate your sentiments. And again thanks to ALL of you for caring. I know getting off Sub is achievable and it does help that I want that. Sometimes I just get disappointed with myself but I could only take so much. And it wasn't fair to my wife to draw her into my misery and worry her. Forty eight hours of what I went thru was a lesson learned.

Most peope do not have a Dr like I do(actually it is not the Dr as I have only seen him twice in two years). Its the entire group of people. I had no qualms about calling the office today because I knew they would be sympatheic to my plight and you cannot ask for more than that. How many times have we dreaded calling a Dr and we should not be lead to feel that way. The office mgr did not even say I will check with the Dr she just said the meds would be there. Now it is a matter of getting a game plan and making it work.

wayne
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Unread 12-11-2010, 07:59 AM   #33
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Hi Wayne, I really wish more people had your doctor and his staff! I'm really happy that they were able to do that for you and so quickly.

Yes, a definite game plan this time would be a good thing. Since 2mg worked, maybe you can try taking 2mg every other day. The only thing that I'd be concerned about with the plan that you mentioned above - waiting for the onset of withdrawals - is that it would be a cause and effect routine, thus maybe putting too much thought into it? But if you set up a pill box with vitamins and the like and put a -tex in every other day, it becomes less conscious effort and more routine. Then you can try putting one in every three days and stretching it out like that and see if that works. Or something to that effect.

Just something to think about.

Ok, I must go back to filibustering in congress.... hahaha

: )

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Unread 12-11-2010, 11:34 AM   #34
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Hi Wayne,

I'm sorry for checking in so late and sorry you are going through all this. You have really had your share and deserve a break. I really hope you have a good Christmas with the family and that this doesn't interfere.

I think your plan - to wait until you need Bupe until taking it - is a good one. In fact, I think most people should consider tapering this way once they get to less than 2mg. I get what Nancy is saying about cause and effect, but in your case maybe it still makes sense. Many people need something more structured with daily doses, but you know your way around this drug and bupe is a whole other animal than most drugs. with the long half-life of bupe you may be able to go a two or three days without taking more, and knowing that you have some of your prescription left will take the fear of running out of meds out of the equation. Since you have gone through some withdrawal already, I agree with Nancy, if you can maybe just take 1mg at a time and see if it holds you. You really sound determined to be done with this and I'm proud. You can do this! I wish I could just quit but I'm just not mentally ready. I know that something is going to push the issue and it'll happen, though.


I never understood why RB decided to make only 8mg and 2mg doses. This makes no sense to me. I think there should be scored 16mg, scored 4mg and scored .5mg tablets, and same with film. My doctor won't prescribe less than 2mg although he knows I cut the strip in half and take 1mg every other day.

Anyway, my 29-year Methadone stint was no picnic, although I didn't end up in PW like you did. It did take me three tries and more than five days to go into withdrawals for induction and it was about 13 days of physical pain at first while my body got rid of all that methadone. I'll never do THAT again.

I'm glad to see you're starting to get some sleep. I know that with me, sleep is the center of all my problems the next day. If I don't get a good night's sleep, nothing works right, and once it starts to add up I end up in big trouble. I would go easy on those Klonopin's, Wayne, if you can and not start to depend on them every night.

Best regards,

-Packrat
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Unread 12-11-2010, 12:36 PM   #35
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Doing a slow drawn out taper has not worked for me ever and there is no ssense in trying to put that square peg into that round hole. Actually I think about taking Sub less when I have a supply in my cabinet. I know a lot of this is mental but when I know I have relief for wds sitting in my cabinet it amazes me at how less the urgency becomes to take one. Had I gotten one 2mg Sub tablet yesterday instaed of enough for the whole weekend I would have thought about taking a Sub first thing this am. But since I have some I can hold out until I feel the onset of wds. I do not plan on waiting until I am in fullblown wds to take one. But who knows a little more time in between taking a Sub could mean waiting a week then ten days then maybe not needing them even though I still have pills left if I do. I have already learned that with Sub it is not something i think about every day unless I have none. If I get off Sub it will not be as a result of running out but as a result of being able to flush my excess.

When I was taking other opiates if I awoke with no pills I had to find one then take it right then. If I awoke with a supply it may be late afternoon before taking one.

wayne
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Unread 12-11-2010, 06:15 PM   #36
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Hi Wayne, sounds like a plan then. Glad you're not going to wait until full-blown WDs, that would be pretty harsh. Maybe even only take 1mg when it gets to that point - cut a bunch to 1mg now and they'll be there ready like that if/when the time comes.

Just a thought. You still feeling ok now that it's later in the day?

Nancy
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Unread 12-11-2010, 08:21 PM   #37
gotoffmdone
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I am feeling a lot better Nancy. Yesterday and Thursday my shoulder and back hurt like hell but that is always the case with wds. I wonder if my pain has dimished because those 2mgs of Sub helped the pain or because the trauma of wds is not there.

I will have to say this is the best I have felt taking Sub. When I first started taking Sub it threw me into wds and I never felt I recovered from that. After these past two days I understand the true purpose and benefit of Sub. It stopped my wds and that felt great. As far as its other benefit of stopping cravings, luckily I have never needed it for that.

wayne
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Unread 12-11-2010, 08:33 PM   #38
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Hi Wayne, I'm glad you're feeling better. I was a little worried about your back and shoulder with the harshness of the withdrawals but glad that's better too. I wonder if it is the Suboxone helping with the pain, or just because it stopped the withdrawals. Might be interesting to see how your back and shoulder feel in the days that you don't take any Suboxone, could be easier to see if it has helped with the pain since the WDs would be in check.

Glad to hear you're feeling better. Now, I hope you'll be able to sleep!!

Nancy
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Unread 12-11-2010, 11:53 PM   #39
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Hi guys. I have simmilar experience. Am from the UK and they hand out subutex for heroin addicts. I've taken subutex for 4 years (2006) and have tried to come down but the post issues last for months on end and that what makes me go back on sub.


Gotomdone if you take sub whenever the withdrawals set in then aren't you simply consuming the sub and getting it back in your system again? is it really worth going through few days of withdrawals. Why not just take a dose of subutex and stay on it. I tried to wean down but don't know how, the feelings of depression lasts for months and I cant hack it. I know it has all to do with subutex as I never felt like that in my entire life, not even when I was detoxing off heroin. I feel as though am stuck on subbies all my life, which to be frank I don't want to be at all. Am just not myself, I want to be motivated and have sober feelings, I don't want to take a tablet everyday and still feel not withing myself, it's not fair.
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Unread 12-12-2010, 06:14 AM   #40
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Lawrence-Dawson

Thanks fot the post. You bring up a great point and one I think of often. I too have been on Sub since 2006. My daily dose was 24 mgs a day. It was nuts for me to think that I could cut my dose back and jump at 2-4mgs in a few months time. I thought I was going to be ok because it took so long for the wds to hit and that has never been my experience. This past week the wds hit me as hard as any, on Thursday. I toughed it our for 48 hours then reminded myself of how rediculous it was to be going through that un-necessarily. I waited until an hour before my Drs office closed for the weekend then called. They phoned in 5 2mg Subs and told me to come in one day next week.

I have a wife that is disabled from the results of a brain aneurysm, and three small grandkids that rely on me when i feel up to being relied upon. That kinda notion is not fair to them. They don't understand why or how wds effect my ability to be there for them. I wasn't doing myself justice or them by trying to tough out these wds.

I am confident that i will be able to stop taking this drug. I have gone from 24 mgs a day to splitting a 2mg tablet in half. And that has been in the past months thanks to what I went through these past two weeks and two days in particular. I have no desire to be on this drug or any other opiate the rest of my days. I am a lot closer to being off Sub that i even was a month ago. If I don't do this the right way the chances of me being on Sub forever is much higher.

What i went thru this past week was basically an induction of sorts. Instead of inducting with Sub to get off some other opiate, I used it to stop the Sub wds themselves. So far, best decision i have made and I learned more about this drug in two days than I had since Sept 12 of 2006. I am disapppointed in myself in that I could not suffer the wds to the bitter end like I have so many other times. But at 54 years of age, with shoulder and back trouble that only surgery could correct, having to care for a disabled wife and being there for three innocent kids, going through what I was trying to go through made me useless to anyone.

It is time for me to regroup and not be so ashamed of the fact that I need additional help. But if i am on Sub 6 months to a year from now I will consider that as having failed myself. I am sure of that. The best I have felt since I took the first pain pill some 30 years ago has been on those occassions I did get pill free and over any and all wds. I have had the luxury in the past of toughing out wds. I no longer have that luxury. I have a love/hate relationship with Sub. The thing I hate about it is itis an opaite. The thing I love about it is it's uniqueness as an opiate. I have the ability to take 1mg and feel as well as if I had taken 32mgs. After four years on this drug, I was a fool to think it would take a tenth of that time to get off of it. And not really doing a taper as much as dropping in certain increments based on supply.

Taking a total of 10mgs of Sub in a two week period, then going through fullblown wds for 48 hours was time wellspent, as it has turned out. It has allowed me to take a fraction of the dose I stopped at even two weeks earlier, and have it work even better. Now I am coming off 1mg rather than 24mgs. At that low of a dose with the generic prices I do not feel as pressured to be off Sub by some arbitrary time frame. I just know it should not take 6 months or a year from this point to get off Sub and if it does it would be because I would not be all that serious and committed to that end.

Lawrence I do understand how you feel about taking a pill every day and still not feeling yourself. Ever since I took Sub to get off methadone I have not felt quite right. For four years I marveled at folks who said Sub made them feel normal and even gave them a buzz or rush of energy. I was envious. I never felt anything even close to that(which is the main reason why I still wonder why I took Sub for four years). Stopping Sub the way i did then taking a small amount the other day is the first time i felt what i would call normal. Dropping so far below the normal line in wds makes feeling normal seem like being artificially high.

True 'normal' is not taking anything for me. Forget how it does or does not make me feel. There is nothing normal feeling about knowing I am being held hostage by some form of a habit forming medication. That when taking it, I don't feel all that great, but not taking puts me thru hell and paralyzes me.

Bottom line is if i have ever a chance to be truly content or happy in what will be the rest of my life, I am going to have to break this drug dependency. That's me and my take on things. I would never suggest to anyone but myself that they would only be happy, healthy and content if they did not have to concern themselves with taking a drug, a drug that in its absence would only create havoc.


wayne

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Unread 12-14-2010, 08:23 PM   #41
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Hey All,

In August I started a wd regiment that was based on expediency more so than one of prudence or practicality. I went from 24mgs to 20mgs to 16mgs to 4mgs then 2mgs(for a little while) then stopped. The rest is history as outlined in this thread.

Those 2mgs I took this past Friday after 60 hours in wds helped. Now, at today's appt., it was suggested that I had gone a bit fast in my taper, given I went down in increments of 4mgs. But once my script for 8mgs of Sub ran out, rather than have my 8mgs of Subs refilled and pick up where I left off at 12mgs and then go from there, I had a script for the 2mgs Sub called in. So he suggested I start today and take 2mgs twice a day for a month, then 1mg three times a day for a month, then 1mg twice a day for a month, then for a month start spreading out the time in between taking 1mg twice a day, then taking 1mg a day for a month, then a half of mg for a month. If necessary allow six weeks in between changes rather than a month.

I was also told to be open to the possibility of me having to take a couple of mgs of sub from now on. That is not a scenerio I want to consider.

As far as the way they want me to start a new taper regiment of sorts given what I have been through lately with going through wds for 60 hours and having two mgs of sub to stop them, does anyone think it would be a good idea for me to taper the way they suggest over the next four months.

I just want to take the time to say that I have a unique set of folks I deal with at my Drs office. The Dr I have seen officially twice in two years and both times were in the first 3 months. I am very glad he has total trust in his staff and that his staff has pull with him. I dreaded going in today because I am somehwat disappointed in myself for not being tough enough to tough last week out. The NP that I see was very reassuring and told me to never go through anything like that again with them a phone call away. She will always leave my treatment in my hands in terms of what I think best. She asked me if I thought I should re-start my taper at 8mgs today and go from there. Of course I did not think that necessary and went with 4mgs per day, divided in 2 2mg doses. And as stated earlier we go from there. I am going to work at getting by with 2mgs per day but it is nice to know there are healthcare professionals that trust themselves enough to trust their patients.

wayne
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Unread 12-15-2010, 12:04 AM   #42
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Wayne, sometimes we have to force ourselves to do what we are not comfortable with or don’t wish to do. I know you have expressed that a longer and slow taper isn’t something you prefer, but maybe it is something which could help some.

When I first tried to recover I was set on doing it as I did back in 83 and because I wouldn’t let go of that, I put myself through a couple years of added hell driving my use through the roof.

I don’t know that this is your answer, but, maybe it is worth a try. I hope whatever you decide, that it brings more comfort & better results.

Mike
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Unread 12-15-2010, 01:41 AM   #43
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To me Mike it is a no brainer to back up and take it easy. I am 54 years old now and I am nit so quick to recover they wat I used to be. Also getting off Sub the right way and as least painful as possible could lead to being on it or another drug evn longer. I think I will listen for once and be one of the many success stories when it comes to getting offf Sub. I ferar doing it my way may negatively influence those new to Sub or those on Sub thinking about getting off..Thanks for imparting a bit of your wisdom Mike.

wayne
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Unread 12-15-2010, 05:35 AM   #44
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hey there,

im 54 also and its a b$tch!,,,sorry to hear of you having to go through this,,,i wish i had some good advise for you but in 7yrs ive never been able to taper off myself,,you are not alone in this if thats any consolance.
One thing i like about this forum that i didnt used to was when one would try and tell thier experience people would try and shut em down. but over the yrs with a few exceptions people have been more free to talk about it w/o feeling they are doin anything wrong. If in doing so it scares someone its not anyones fault,,its jus tour experiences differ from one to another with sub treatment. after bein on it for yrs and tryin to quit i was even told i wasnt experiencing wd from sub but another drug i took yrs before!,,i mean that doesnt even begin to make sense,,especially in my case where i was started on sub while not addicted to anything. Im just glad the forum has changed for the better and i really wish you luck on getting what you want.
For me though,in order to get off,,and i have put thought into doing it ,,is long term drug program. I cant just get off and be ok,,and im so screwed up from drug use im afraid a program is my only feasible option.
goodluck and stay strong,,ive seen people who do actually make it,,people i didnt think had a chance in the world just freakin did it,,and just because of past experiences doesnt mean this one cant be different. I think a big part of it is the right timming and desire.
TT

i sense such a strength in what you say and understand all of it,,and i was just sayin the other day,,54 yrs old is just about the perfect age to go for it and get that second chance!!!!once over the worst of it,,we'll begin to feel younger everyday instead of older!

Last edited by So.Cal.; 12-15-2010 at 05:40 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Unread 12-15-2010, 07:22 AM   #45
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Hi Wayne, I really like your doctor's office - the doctor especially for putting the trust in his staff, which is top-notch from what you've said.

How are you feeling taking 2mg? Do you think you need to go back to 4mg? I'm just wondering because if you're not having withdrawals (still no cravings, I presume), then I honestly don't see the point of increasing your dose just to decrease it. If you're good at two, you can take the schedule but adapt it to the 2mg - 1mg twice a day; then .5m 3x a day. Know what I mean? But that is all based on how you're doing at 2mg. Just some food for thought.

How's your sleep?

Nancy
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Unread 12-16-2010, 11:25 AM   #46
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Nancy
I have just decided to try as best I can to follow the game plane we set out. Other than cost, and that is really it, there is no reason to do this any other way but the wqy that gives me the greatest chance at success.

Doing it the wrong way brings with it a cost as well, and that cost can be measured not so much in monetary terms but in misery, agony, lost opportunities....the list goes on. And if I have to get other rx meds to combat certain wd symptoms then the cost factor starts playing its role.

It is weird but now that I have 2mgs of Sub to take twice a day it amazes me at how easy it becomes to get by on 12mgs a day. It has always been easier for me to withstand adversity when I feel it is my choice to do so.

wayne
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Unread 12-17-2010, 07:20 AM   #47
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Hi Wayne, yes, when you weigh the cost in doing it wrong, following the plan is priceless. Are you using any of the discount cards in this thread?
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=12915

Jackie recently posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaJaBe View Post
I use the W-Card at Walgreens. It's $20 bucks for a year, and saves waaaaaay more than that.

What's the price difference between the 2mg pills and the 8mg pills? Like with Suboxone, the 2mg pills are much more expensive mg for mg, so it's more cost effective to get the 8mg and split them into 2mg. Just a thought there.

How's it going?

Nancy
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Unread 12-17-2010, 11:50 AM   #48
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God bless Wayne!

I tapered with little to no WD's I was lucky as my workers comp paid. I went slow real slow and it was so easy. I went from 16mg to 14,12,10,8,6,4,2 then began the cutting down to crumbs. I laid out what I was to take in a pill box for the week. If by chance I felt a little jittery, I borrowed a crumb from the next day so it evened out.
Sub is strong and it lasts.

I pray for patience to do it that way. I so wanted to just jump.

Merry Christmas and know God Loves you. "This too shall pass" but His Love never cease's

Glen
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Unread 12-17-2010, 03:34 PM   #49
gotoffmdone
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As far as cost is concerned, the other day the script I got at Walgreens for 60 2mg generic Subutex was right at 80 dollars. They asked me if I had insurance and when I said no I was told I was getting a discount of sorts. But I am not aware of the details of the discount. Is there a better offer out there?


Below is a quote from something I wrote in a post above.

"It is weird but now that I have 2mgs of Sub to take twice a day, it amazes me at how easy it becomes to get by on 12mgs a day."

Duh! What a dumb thing to say. And quite an obvious thing to say if I was taking 12mgs/day.


wayne
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Unread 12-17-2010, 04:30 PM   #50
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I thought it was a typo, meaning 2mgs a day, not 12.
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