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Unread 05-06-2010, 01:25 AM   #51
searchingforthelight
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Default Frightened -

I'm not sure which scares me more - getting clean - going through withdrawal or the associated medication. I've read the back up information and this drug seems safe enough - and it appears that 90% of recovery is up to me physically and emotionally and 10 is fighting the withdrawal symptoms which the medication aids with - how true is this if at all?

I need to get this out of my system and get off pain killers - for many many good reasons - and no matter what I do I risk my life but if my chances of success are better with the medication it's a risk I am willing to take - at least I would have a chance.
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Unread 05-06-2010, 07:48 AM   #52
NancyB
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Hi searchingforthelight, yes, the medication has a very good safety profile - it's been around for more than 30 years in the States primarily as a painkiller in the IM injectable formulation buprenex. It got approved in 2002 in pill form for the treatment of opioid addiction.

All that the medication is indicated to do is to alleviate cravings and withdrawals at the right dose. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest is up to the patient to work recovery through therapy, support groups, etc. The patient should take this time while not suffering from cravings and withdrawals to work on anything that was damaged during active addiction such as finances, relationships, self esteem, etc.; learn new coping skills to be able to handle stress, depression, anxiety or anything else that s/he may have been self-medicating for; and work on the final goal of living both addiction and medication-free.

I hope that helps.

Nancy
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Unread 05-22-2010, 09:30 PM   #53
luluSober
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Thank you very much. I began treatment 14 days ago and I am learning so much. Your post taught me a lot. Your read allowed me to understand my addiction and my addiction remission so much more. I am going to continue to read/learn more about the brain side of addiction in order to arm myself for the success of long-term addiction remission. Thank you again.
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Unread 06-23-2010, 07:40 PM   #54
cosmikdebris
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Default About the Sub

Just reading through here and saw what you were saying ,Im at the point where Im ready to quit the sub treatment and have just been browsing for advice , ideas etc , sounds like you may know quite a bit about that..
good to know, I quess I just have to get more involved in these threads. Ive been on sub since 09 and am sick of it quite frankly and the article like the one that started this thread are not helping anyone , so what Tim did was good for evryones piece of mind I think....so Ill be around , hope to meet some more of you here....
Steve

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMike View Post
Hey Tommy ............... About the Sub, if your not feeling anything from it, that is good.

Listen, I don't know what your long term plans are with it and heck, you might not yet either. If it comes that at some point you want to stop taking it all together, I'm here to help and I am willing to do that one on one.

If you decide that you want to stay on it, then when the time comes (not now) if I can help you get to where I am with it, I want you to know I'm here for you.

You already know this but tackling the benzo deal is the most important in regard to recovery right now and you have been working really hard at that.

Then of course you have so many other things on your plate which have to be taken care of. Just stay strong my friend and keep moving forward as you have been! Trust God, trust the love in your heart for your children and of course for Freida and we are here for you. Be it with bike advice or tips or just a good ear to listen!

I'm sure you know this, but, the 69 Bonniville left it's mark on this nations highways! That was a good choice in machines! Anyway, I'll take my bike chat to one of your other threads so I don't screw up Tim's thread here! lol

Mike
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Unread 07-21-2010, 01:02 PM   #55
newmom
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Default hey tim

Tim,

I was just wondering if you have any medical background?? I am a nurse and when I read your entries it seems as though you quite a bit a empirical evidentiary information.
Its just refreshing for me personally to read the science behind some of it. Helps me to "deal" with it all a little easier.

Thanks for all your great input,
Newmom
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Unread 07-21-2010, 02:49 PM   #56
TIM
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Hi Newmom,
No I have no medical background, everything I post should be verified with credible sources (that I try to include when I can). I feel the same way you do, so much of addiction consists of judgmental opinion and non-evidenced based "theories". Because of the stigma, this non-evidence based quackery, is accepted and believed. Some high profit detox businesses take advantage of this and vulnerable patients who assume someone is watching out for these non-evidence-based scams. I think focusing on the available body of evidence is the best way to help people weed through the deception.
Tim
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Unread 07-21-2010, 04:08 PM   #57
newmom
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So true.. I live in a very small community and have worked just as hard to keep my addiction "hidden" from my friends and family..especially my kids. My parents are known as "pillars of the community" as is my husband. I have a different opinion of course but still, that's how it is. To their surprise however, once I am stable and moving foward I am going to find my place to become a very outspoken advocate for people like u and me. I want my kids to see me for the fighter I am and how to take a bad situation and use it to help others. I don't want them to see people like us as weak, strung out and useless like so many in society have coined us.
Like I have said to others here, I believe we are the strong, courageous, deeply loving people God wanted us to be. And I intend to live the rest of my life to its fullest.

Thanks again,
Newmom
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Unread 07-29-2010, 09:59 PM   #58
iWILLgetthruthis
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I started treatment today on Suboxone and I enjoyed reading this. I also agree that anyone seeking treatment should educate themselves before doing so and picking the best option for them. Everyone is different but I think Suboxone is a life-safer! Today is the first day of the rest of my life and extremely grateful something like this even exists.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 12:27 AM   #59
woody
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ok tim ,im new here names woody ,
i saw the headding and thought this would be some good reading , WOW
WHAT AN EYE OPENER, i'll be up front i don't have a good education in drugs only the bad ones , this knocked me off my feet ,and at the same sadden my badly , my doc said not even to worry about any problems till the 3 yr mark or longer ,it's time to educate my self ,
to tell you the truth i was just happy to stop all the bad things
i was up to and never looked back ,i more than offten now question medical advice no matter who tells me it . thanx for the info.
woody

what i di fail to mention is YES SOBX SAVED MY LIFE
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Unread 08-09-2010, 12:58 PM   #60
TIM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody View Post
ok tim ,im new here names woody ,
i saw the headding and thought this would be some good reading , WOW
WHAT AN EYE OPENER, i'll be up front i don't have a good education in drugs only the bad ones , this knocked me off my feet ,and at the same sadden my badly , my doc said not even to worry about any problems till the 3 yr mark or longer ,it's time to educate my self ,
to tell you the truth i was just happy to stop all the bad things
i was up to and never looked back ,i more than offten now question medical advice no matter who tells me it . thanx for the info.
woody

what i di fail to mention is YES SOBX SAVED MY LIFE
Hi Woody,
It’s a hard thing to become educated about addiction, there are competing interests that don’t want people to understand addiction, take rapid detox for example, a high risk $17,000, 3 day treatment. If their customers were educated about addiction they would know that detox is now an obsolete treatment that doesn’t address the brain disease of addiction. Doctors are only exposed to addiction education if they choose it as an elective. So many have gone through medical school with no formal education on addictive disorders. Stigma and outdated conceptions of addiction prevent new discoveries from entering mainstream practice.

I think the best place to start with educating yourself is the HBO documentary ”Addiction”. This way you don’t have to read boring technical papers, but can get a general understanding of what we now know addiction actually is. Then you’ll be able to make more sense of modern evidence-based treatments and see why the old detox and hope treatments don’t work well.

Here’s the link to the HBO videos
http://www.hbo.com/addiction/thefilm...html?current=5

And here’s another one where a doctor explores whether addiction is a choice or disease.
http://www.youtube.com/user/kevintmc.../0/ekDFv7TTZ4I

Welcome to Addiction Survivors!
Tim
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 09-13-2010, 11:59 AM   #61
toofardown
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Default Suboxone drug screen??

Hi all,
I need a quick answer -- if I took 1mg of subonxone on Sat @ 4pm, would it show up on a suboxone-specific drug screen @ 6pm tonight (48 hours later)? Thx much for any insight on this matter.
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Unread 09-13-2010, 12:07 PM   #62
NancyB
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Hi again, I answered here, but if anyone else has thoughts, please share.

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...116#post383116

Nancy
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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:15 AM   #63
deniise
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post moved to:

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=25755

Last edited by deniise; 12-22-2010 at 01:18 AM.. Reason: typing error
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Unread 03-25-2011, 05:58 PM   #64
thissux34
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Default help precipitated WD!

moved to:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=26155
for better visibility
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Unread 05-03-2011, 06:23 PM   #65
alanw
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Thier just jealous that suboxone works!!! Ignorance is worse then addiction
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Unread 05-03-2011, 06:26 PM   #66
alanw
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Default bupe in the body

Quote:
Originally Posted by toofardown View Post
Hi all,
I need a quick answer -- if I took 1mg of subonxone on Sat @ 4pm, would it show up on a suboxone-specific drug screen @ 6pm tonight (48 hours later)? Thx much for any insight on this matter.

Yes! Its half life is 36 hours for most so your looking at a minimum of 4 days depending on your diet.
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Unread 11-27-2011, 12:36 PM   #67
HeyDeeOhRed
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TIM,
Thanks so much for the read. I am starting treatment tomorrow for depression from what I believe to be an opiate dependency (or developed Endorphin deficiency syndrome)

I am scared to start the treatment through all the different outcomes I've read about, addiction potentiality, etc etc.

But I want to believe that it is because of the lack of education on the drug.

I'm ready to get well. I want to get well, I have no motivation, and I'm hoping this is the little shove I need to get me out of the house and help me get my life back in order.

Thank you for the reassurance.
-Heydee
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Unread 11-27-2011, 02:30 PM   #68
Papaj
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Default Very Informative!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIM View Post
Here’s a post I found on a newspaper comment board. It shows all of the misconceptions about buprenorphine treatment all in one post. I responded to each point in red.

By: nurse jk wrote on Friday, Nov 21 at 09:13 PM »

Suboxone is a schedule III, controlled opiate drug which is very addicting. [Buprenorphine has a small potential for addiction. Even when administered to a high risk population. 100% of whom have histories of addiction, very few develop the uncontrollable compulsion to take the medication seen in addiction. see:is buprenorphine addictive] It is not the miracle drug the claims say. [The manufacturer, government, and advocacy groups go out of their way to claim that it is NOT a miracle drug, because this creates unrealistic expectations with some people, and when those unrealistic expectations are inevitably not met, they become disappointed, angry, or feel misled. Proper education is the best defense against unrealistic expectations.] We get hundreds of calls every week from people very addicted to this drug. [no doubt many people don’t understand the difference between physical dependence (normal and expected) and addiction (a diagnosed disorder). Such misunderstandings can be dangerous see: physical dependence vs addiction] This is what I hear from all of them....That they were never told the truth and are shocked and hurt and very disappointed that their withdrawal is worse than from a traditional opiate. [The withdrawal syndrome has been shown to be much less than full agonist opioids. If the brain changes caused by years of active addiction are ignored and not dealt with appropriately, the withdrawal symptoms they produce can easily and mistakenly be attributed to the treatment medication. Truth is the conditions responsible for some of these withdrawal symptoms preexisted the treatment with buprenorphine. See: The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence] They cannot get off of it...nor can they wean down and stop it. It has withdrawal of 2-4 weeks and is very difficult, causing a lot of body pain and other bad symptoms such as headaches, depression, lethargy, etc. [many patients have been able to comfortably taper off, providing they have prepared and allowed time for their brains to adapt back closer to preaddiction status. See people who have tapered off] The blocker is also being misrepresented...it is only utilized when a patient "shoots" up this drug...not even absorbed sublingually. [another misunderstood concept, buprenorphine is a blocker itself and at the right dose will effectively block other opioids. The naloxone component will help cause withdrawal when injected by someone physically dependent on full agonist opioids. See TIP40 page 23] The blocker also has nothing to do with throwing a person into withdrawal. [part right. The naloxone blocker will not initiate withdrawal when taken sublingually, but the buprenorphine itself can if administered too soon. See TIP40 page 19]

This drug is the most abused drug in Europe today. [Subutex is widely misused in Europe, but Suboxone (the abuse resistant formulation) is what is used in the US and the abuse rate is incredibly low. This person wants you to think because it is true in Europe it must be true here, when the opposite is true.] People are snorting and smoking it; even shooting it up and eventually they feel a "high", just takes a little longer to kick in. [There are a small minority that will abuse any medication, however these people usually will switch back to their drug of choice since the high is much less from bupe and it blocks other opioids for days. This is another reason why the misuse in the US is so low. Let’s look at real evidence instead of speculation, see actual US government statistics of bupe misuse] Seems as if doctors (usually psychiatrists) prescribing this drug are misleading people or just don't really know the facts. It is not much better than Methadone; people don't have to go to a clinic every morning, so it is more attractive and convenient. It is like a doctor office Methadone. We are not in agreement with getting patients addicted to another drug. [ Here’s why I often say understanding the difference between addiction and physical dependence is so important. This person is discounting a medication that could potential save lives because they don’t possess the knowledge of the difference between the terms. Buprenorphine treatment is NOT switching one addiction for another. See Is buprenorphine just switching one addiction for another?] We hope to help them get clean and live drug free without the misery of another drug addiction. [addiction free must be the first goal, drugs are not the problem addiction is. Many people take all kinds of drugs/medications for all kinds of things and live better and longer lives as a result. Drugs are not the enemy, addiction is. "clean" is not the most important goal "addiction remission" is. see What is the real goal]

I talk with hundreds of patients every month that are very distraught and angry about being given Suboxone and not being told it was harder to get off of than a traditional opiate, such as the pain pills and even heroin. [That’s because it is NOT more difficult, but the wrong assumptions about addiction and brain changes can lead people to this misconclusion] Most were told it is not an opiate. [Doctors are well aware that it is an opioid, plus all of the literature indicates it, if they did any self education at all they would have discovered this and should have questioned their doctor. www.naabt.org’s very first line at the top of the home page (arguably, the most prominent spot on the site) states “Buprenorphine (Suboxone®, Subutex®) is an opioid medication…” I think it is more likely people assume it isn’t an opioid, don’t bother to educate themselves, then claim they were misled. However knowing it is an opioid is meaningless without understanding what the difference is between full agonist opioids (heroin,hydrocone, morphine, methadone, and the rest) and a partial agonist (bupe), implying all opioids are the same is misleading] We are doing the anesthesia detox treatment on more and more Suboxone patients. People are just not being told the truth about it. [now we get to the motivation behind these misconceptions]

We are treating many Suboxone addicted individuals with the anesthesia detox procedure. [ average cost $12,000- $17,000] It is the only thing that works to help people get off of this drug without the weeks of withdrawal. [the evidence says otherwise]You must have heard by now the facts about the addictive nature of this drug. Your doctor has to know the addictive nature of Suboxone, the fact that it is an opiate and that it is impossible to get off of without extreme suffering. How can Suboxone assist in opiate withdrawal when it is an opiate...there are claims of no withdrawal from an opiate when giving Suboxone. That is because it is an opiate...just trading one for another and feeding a person the opiate the body needs to continue the addiction and prevent withdrawal. [ This person doesn’t know what addiction is, or what addiction treatment is for. There is a specific clinical definition for addiction, and not knowing it could cause someone to discontinue treatment too sson. It is the consequences of uncontrollable compulsive behavior that is bad, not the physical need for a medication. People in bupe treatment often very early are able to stop this dangerous behavior and begin to rebuild their lives, they rejoin work, school, relationships, society. They return to a more normal life and are given the opportunity to make positive meaningful changes in their lives which is the only path to long-term addiction remission. Since addiction was first classified as a brain disease over 50 years ago, the changes made to the brain have been shown with modern imagery and these brain adaptations take time to reverse. No quick 1 hour sedation in an ICU is going to help with these profound changes ] Our anesthesia detox procedure requires a 3-4 day stay and is an opiate detoxification treatment where a patient is placed under general anesthesia for approximately 1 hour. Once the patient is comfortably sleeping under the anesthesia, a medication is given intravenously that will push the opiates off of the receptors so the patient is clean. [they are under the false assumption that once opioids are off of the receptors the addiction is over. This isn’t even close to true and only the very start to treatment not some fix-all solution] Our revolutionary anesthesia detox procedure can greatly reduce the pain and suffering associated with a typical “cold turkey” opiate withdrawal. [does it make sense to you that 1 hour of drugs will reverse years of brain adaptations? The scientist don’t think so either]
[end]


About rapid detox

What are the pros and cons of detoxification under anesthesia (Rapid Detox)?

Pros: Treatment is administered in the intensive care unit where there are experts available to mange the intense symptoms of withdrawal such as seizures. The medical professionals who perform this method of detox are experienced in it.

Cons: It is not sufficient treatment for the brain disease of addiction. Detoxification is only the first step of a recovery, removing the opioids from the body does not do anything to treat the brain disease of addiction. Changes to the structure and function of the brain due to addiction may persist for months and if not treated usually result in relapse. Detox does not eliminate the cravings, and does not address the problems that lead to the addiction in the first place, unless psychosocial care is employed after the actual detoxification. It is physically dangerous, which is why it is done in an intensive care unit, and it is very expensive making it unavailable for most people. It is difficult to find data that reports the long-term outcomes of patients who are treated with inpatient detoxification. This method of detoxification is often a high profit private enterprise. Data as to actual efficacy especially over time is extremely difficult to obtain or validate. There is credible data that shows reasons not to use rapid detox.

In 2005 this was printed in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical association: "Rapid opioid detoxification with opioid antagonist induction using general anesthesia has emerged as an expensive, potentially dangerous, unproven approach to treat opioid dependence." (JAMA. 2005;294:903-913)



"In general, the data do not support using general anesthesia during detoxification," said Herbert Kleber, M.D., vice chair of APA's Council on Addiction Psychiatry and a coauthor of the report. "The critical thing is not what happens during detox, but what happens after, and we found no difference between the groups. In addition, there were serious life-threatening adverse effects in the anesthesia group."(Psychiatry News October 7, 2005)


"Anesthesia-assisted detoxification should have no significant role in the treatment of opioid dependence," wrote Patrick G. O'Connor, M.D., M.P.H., in an editorial accompanying the JAMA report..."When detoxification is provided to patients, other approaches using clonidine, methadone, or buprenorphine are likely to be at least as effective as anesthesia-assisted detoxification and also are safer and far less costly." (Psychiatry News October 7, 2005) 4/2008

more buprenphine facts can be found here:
http://www.naabt.org/education.cfm
Thank you sir! very helpful, I am new here ...like this is the first post i have read and i am 21 days off Hydro and on Suboxone,lots of questions !!! and i found alot of answers here TY!
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Unread 11-27-2011, 06:07 PM   #69
TIM
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Thank you for posting. I'm glad that 3 years after I made that post that's is still helpful. Congratulations on 21 days of addiction remission!
Tim
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Unread 11-27-2011, 07:11 PM   #70
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very nice.congratulations on 21 days ty! keep at it.
the only think that bothered me is the journal of the American medical association ...they said the fast track of tramadol was safe November of 1994...then issued a black box Waring of tramadol the following year...after it put me in a 3 month coma.
always trust a well educated doctor over J.A.M.A.....I often wonder if that's a "pay to play" situation.

that was extremely interesting and informative...thanks guys.
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Unread 11-28-2011, 12:05 PM   #71
TIM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedle View Post
very nice.congratulations on 21 days ty! keep at it.
the only think that bothered me is the journal of the American medical association ...they said the fast track of tramadol was safe November of 1994...then issued a black box Waring of tramadol the following year...after it put me in a 3 month coma.
always trust a well educated doctor over J.A.M.A.....I often wonder if that's a "pay to play" situation.

that was extremely interesting and informative...thanks guys.
I think you are thinking of the FDA not JAMA. JAMA doesn't issue black box warnings or determine the safety or approval track of a drug. They are a peer reviewed publication where scientists submit research results to be scrutinized by other scientists.
Tim
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Unread 11-28-2011, 12:33 PM   #72
deedle
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well maybe I can send you the articles and maybe you can stop continually scrutinizing me when all I do is speak highly of you.
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Unread 11-28-2011, 12:43 PM   #73
deedle
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it was the nih and FDA...article published in Jama...fasttrack article 1994...warning article. 1996.
I'm tired of having to defend myself ...I'm not here to.( and don't) speak untruths.
this place is feeling less and less like a supportive environment ...which is a shame.
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Unread 11-28-2011, 12:52 PM   #74
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deedle,

Please don't be offended I am not scrutinizing you I just don't want people to think that JAMA is anything less than the well respected and credible source of medical research results that it is. In the example I used, proponents of rapid detox have cited results from patient surveys that they conducted themselves to support the procedure and I wanted to point out that 3rd party controlled studies by scientists then published in JAMA contradicts what they say. If people are not familiar with JAMA or have a misunderstanding of how credible and prestigious it is, they won't see the significance of this contradictory evidence. That's why I had to post, I didn't mean to offend you.

Tim
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 11-30-2011, 12:27 AM   #75
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THANKS TIM! These treads are excellent intelligence. An r by far the truth! I've learned a Mass Amount from u!!! Gave much to self check! I'm newborn @some point now. I most definitely appreciate all your knowledge u have shared. An will continue to reread & research ur links. Thanks again this is reality! I hope many run across this gold mine
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Unread 01-19-2012, 12:17 PM   #76
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Im sorry, buy SUBOXONE HAS SAVED MY LIFE!! I would probably be dead or in jail without suboxone. Im thankful for this drug, it saved me!!
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Unread 01-23-2012, 01:40 PM   #77
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Tim...every once in a while I have to go back and read about this disease. I do this because I never wnt to go back to where I once was....thanks for all you have done for us.
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Unread 01-14-2013, 05:35 PM   #78
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Unread 07-10-2013, 03:31 PM   #79
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Detox treatments just take the drugs out of your system, but the brain changes that are left behind is what addiction is. I detoxed myself 100s of times, but it wasn't until I got real treatment and took the time to makes changes that I was able to stop longterm.

Detox treatments only work for people who are only physically dependent, not addicted. In other words detox treatments only work for those who really don't need it and could probably quit on there own and save a bundle too. But people with addictions won't find any quick fit to work, because the brain changes slowly and changing it back happens slowly too, simple as that.
I agree Mike. IMO short term partial/full antagonists can certainly stabilize someone who is unable to maintain reasonable function in their daily lives, but this IMO should only be considered as a stepping stone to complete abstinence. I'm a 20+ year hardcore opiate addict who has tried every treatment modality available. My daily equivalent consumption peaked at 1,200 mg oxycodone a few months ago and I should be dead many times over. The only thing that worked for me was noribogaine and I say this reluctantly because this site seems to refer people to doctors who prescribe bup which is fine it does IMO serve a purpose for SOME people in certain situations. The problem is as you stated that people do not have a general understanding of these drugs and the physiological impact. These synthetics are very small molecularly which "layer" themselves with a high affinity to the classical opiate receptors particularily th mu receptor. They also have a very long half life. These factors alone can lead to false expectations when the user decides to discontinue use. I believe I'm on safe ground to say that more natural opiates and even semi-synthetics do not pose these issues. Having said that I do realize that every individual situation is different and they can serve a purpose, but generally speaking IMO they are over prescribed.

IMO as a GENERAL rule factors including, but not limited to specific opiate/opioid, length of useage, dosage, age, metabolic function are the questions that should be asked to set personal expectations for recovery. Regardless of which type of treatment is applied including rapid detox it takes varying amounts of time for GDNF-related healing to be achieved. It simply takes time for endogenous neurotransmitters to return function. This lack of function is what is referred to as PAWS. Depending on the above mentioned this could take anywhere from weeks, months, years, to never in varying degrees of success.

IMO the only treatment exception to experiencing full blown acute withdrawl as well as post acute is noribogaine. A full flood of noribogaine frees the opiate receptors of agonists and has binding affinity to these same receptors because of its molecular structure. It has a very long have life, is fat soluable, and is 100% non-addictive. This bioavailibility allows continued action for weeks to months depending on fat content, liver function (people with poor liver function can be given suppositories) metabolic rate, as well as other factors.

I do not mean to say that this is a magic bullet. It is not. It takes hard work. Recovery is a long term process. However for me personally as well as others I have known and personally witnessed it has been God send. The faucility I went to told me that out of 900 patients they had treated that I was twice the worst addict they had seen. Everything has been 10x's easier. I underwent the treatment 90 days ago and have not used since. I have zero cravings or withdrawl symptoms. I thank God each and everyday for the amazing gift of life. I've been drug through the bowels of hell. I know all to well the demons involved. I pray this information is useful to someone out there. God bless you all and you are all in my prayers. Mike

--------AN HONEST DISCLAIMER!!!-------
I am NOT a medical doctor!!! These are my opinions based on years of research and personal experiences. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. Always consult your board certified physician before starting any form of treatment!! Ibogaine is a schedule I drug in the United States which means ordering, possession, or personal use is highly illegal! It is legal in all but a few other countries. NEVER attempt to do a self treatment with ibogaine!! Aside from being highly illegal in the United States as well as a few other countries it requires a strict protocol to be followed by a professional certified provider. Any other treatment attempt can result in DEATH!!
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Unread 07-17-2013, 08:45 PM   #80
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IMO [buprenorphine] should only be considered as a stepping stone to complete abstinence.
Unfortunately, that’s not realistic Mike. Some people will need bupe forever and will relapse and die without it. I thought I might be one of them, turns out I was able to taper off. Not everyone has an experience like yours or mine and abstinence isn’t an option for everyone. I had an NA friend who used to think the same as you. His girlfriend became so depressed that he was “clean” and she was still a “dirty bupe user” that she finally quit, with his encouragement. She committed suicide a couple weeks later because she relapsed and felt like such a loser (thanks in part to my abstinence-only friend’s support) that she couldn’t go back to “that filthy drug”. IMO his ignorance killed her by making her feel so guilty about “being on a drug”. I miss her, and the worst part was she was happy and enjoying life on bupe until the guilt trip. If she wasn’t made to feel like a loser for “using it as a crutch” and “just trading addictions” she’d probably be alive today. BTW- my abstinent friend died a few months later…the COD was never determined. So is abstinence the goal, I say no, IMO you need to stop the addiction whatever it takes…
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Unread 07-18-2013, 06:40 AM   #81
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Unfortunately, that’s not realistic Mike. Some people will need bupe forever and will relapse and die without it. I thought I might be one of them, turns out I was able to taper off. Not everyone has an experience like yours or mine and abstinence isn’t an option for everyone. I had an NA friend who used to think the same as you. His girlfriend became so depressed that he was “clean” and she was still a “dirty bupe user” that she finally quit, with his encouragement. She committed suicide a couple weeks later because she relapsed and felt like such a loser (thanks in part to my abstinence-only friend’s support) that she couldn’t go back to “that filthy drug”. IMO his ignorance killed her by making her feel so guilty about “being on a drug”. I miss her, and the worst part was she was happy and enjoying life on bupe until the guilt trip. If she wasn’t made to feel like a loser for “using it as a crutch” and “just trading addictions” she’d probably be alive today. BTW- my abstinent friend died a few months later…the COD was never determined. So is abstinence the goal, I say no, IMO you need to stop the addiction whatever it takes…
Hey Mike - I'm so so sorry for your loss Mike. My dad recently passed from an overdose in my arms so I can completely understand what you are saying and I will include you in my prayers. Maybe I should clarify what I mean to say and that is if someone is unable to stop their addictive behavior patterns for whatever reason then of course it is best to continue treatment for as long as necessary, but I do have to respectfully disagree that complete abstinence IMO is the preferrable and best goal to shoot for. All the best. ~Mike
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Unread 03-09-2014, 05:26 PM   #82
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Suboxine has saved my life for the time being but I think we all hope that we will be totally free from everything, but untill that time comes I think we have to do what we gotta do!
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Unread 03-09-2014, 05:35 PM   #83
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HI all: IMO, we all need to worry about our own recovery!! As long as someone is not using drugs to get "high", then who is anyone to say that subs is trading one addiction for another. Last I knew, we don't get high on subs, we don't rob others for subs, (I sure hope not), and we are able to live our lives productively (most anyway). People are so easy to judge others, it is sickening. For those who feel subs is replacing one addiction for another, think very carefully when you were out there chasing your DOC and merely existed day to day.
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Unread 10-17-2014, 12:38 PM   #84
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Unread 11-09-2014, 06:41 PM   #85
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It's difficult to realize that once you have an opiate addiction you are stuck with it. I'm at the point where I don't even want the high feeling anymore but I still know I'm an addict. Bupe saved my life. I lost a brother 7 years ago to addiction. I wish I had tried to get him on suboxone but it was still a new thing back then. I was on methadone and I really didn't want him on that. I would have to be almost dead before I went back to a methadone clinic. As far as being on suboxone the rest of my life, I don't intend to be, but I can't think that far ahead. I'm just trying to do what's right for the day and worry about the next day when it comes.
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Unread 01-22-2015, 12:32 PM   #86
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Since Suboxone is being used for Opiate addiction wouldn't NA or even Most AA help with treatment and should along with counseling be part of the treatment not just giving a drug to make your withdrawal from Opiates easier. I have been in several treatment centers long term from 30 days to 90 and for multiple addiction but always Opiates and booze. We got nothing but Librium for comfort and trust me it did not help a lot we suffered and got clean and were given tools to help us have a chance to find Sobriety. Some do and some don't. I am on Suboxone now for Addiction and Pain management. So far after 3 weeks at 16mg a day it is great for the cravings and withdrawal and does help some for the pain. I personally think 24 mg would be the sweet spot for the pain or better put to help me deal with the pain better. Nothing gets rid of the pain all the way not even morphine. Just was wondering your views on this Tim and if it was addressed in this thread already I am sorry did not see it. By the way I learned a lot from this thread and want to Thank you and the others for their input.


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Unread 05-28-2015, 05:42 PM   #87
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Like I said. Buprenorphine pushing doctors honestly dont care as much about the long term treatment of their patients, rather than the quick money gained by the rapid detox and administration of the beprenorphine.

I have been around hardcore, early-middle-and late-stage opiate addicts since I was a young kid. Ive known close to a thousand, and some have been as close as family, for more than thirty years. I have never met one that had not detoxed themselves dozens, if not over a hundred times. Its painful, gut-wrenching pure misery, some of the worst physical pain I've ever felt...but it only lasts 3-4 days. Hardly worth wasting $4500 on....unless it was someone else's money..and most unrecovered addicts would much rather have a relative spend the money on an implant or a script than actual treament.

My point being, that the money billed these people would be much better spent paying for a month of in-house treatment...treating and recovering from the disease of addiction, and not wasting precious resources focusing on 'fixing' the physical dependence. Most of the people treated arent independently wealthy, and after 4500, if they can afford a month of in-patient treatment, they have spent mostly all they can. The treatment makes them feel better, have hope, and one more reason not to actually do the work it takes to recover.

Im sure the vested interests, the Pharmaceutical companies, and doctors who enjoy the rewards lobbied good and hard to get the WHO to declare this 'a treatment standard'.

If you talk to people in the counseling fields, the addiction specialists, and psychologists, they would rather see the time, money, and energy go towards the actual treatment of the disease....and an NA 'basic text', or a 'big book'. Can you produce any serious, authentic treatment professionals that would rather see a patient do rapid detox/buprenorphine than go to a month of intensive in-patient treatment?

Therein lies about the only guaranteed success. But that doesnt make anyone any money, now does it?

Do you seriously think that most of these doctors would ever suggest their patients go into a detox, and then a 30 day program? if it meant they would give up a client? how many would limit their ability to make 9-14k a day with only a nurse-practitioner, an office, and a small staff? Are you going to tell me that there is a serious evaluation precoess to weed out people who are guaranteed to skip all treatment/counseling once the rescription is given, and the family writes the check?

Now your going to tell me that the doctors are sincere, honest, and concerned, and that is relatively true...they are doctors doing what doctors do: treating physical symptoms....but many of them have willfill ignorance about what they actually do to contribute to the problem by offering quick fixes at a price. This is naive at best...willful ignorance in the median...and charlatanism when at the worst end of the spectrum.

Interesting that this site only has ads for Bupenorphine treatment and the doctors that do it. No links to other recovery sites? No links to NA, CDA, Al-Anon, NAADAC, or AA world services? You'd think by looking at this site that opiate addicts were hopeless before Buprenorphine was developed.

I wonder what the hundreds of thousands of successfully recovering opiate addicts did before Buprenorphine?

I believe both 12-step programs and drug assisted therapies each have there purpose. Will buprenorphine "fix" drug addiction? No of course not. But as medicine and knowledge of the addicted brain has evolved there are more options to help. When I go to an NA meeting I dont see any literature on drug therapies to help, nor do I expect my doctor to be my sponsor or a fellow addict. I go to meetings as a PART of my recovery, just like I go to my doctor as a PART of my recovery. I don't see why the two things have to be mutually exclusive. This website may focus on buprenorphine treatment and information to go along with it, just like other recovery websites focus on OTHER things. And yes the hundreds of thousands of successfully recovering opiate addicts before buprenorphine came out probably mostly used 12-Step meetings/therapy. Just because there is a new option to help someone with the disease of addiction that wasn't used by addicts before doesnt mean its bad. Im sure years and years from now buprenorphine treatment will be looked at as "old school" in comparison to new treatments. However, this does not mean that addicts should dismiss new treatment options and medicines just because people have been successful without them in the past. If someone doesnt need the help of a medication, more power to them. But different things work for different people. There is not a one size fits all treatment from my experience, and I am grateful to live in a time where I can have multiple components of addiction treatment helping me towards recovery. Also, there are always going to be flaws in the medical system, just like in everywhere else. It doesn't mean we should demonize a new treatment option.
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Unread 08-07-2015, 04:37 PM   #88
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How is it that I can go into a doctors office and get 90, 30 mg oxycodone tablets (or much more) prescribed on a monthly basis, without paying a dime? My insurance covers that!! Doctors are all too quick to prescribe an opiate painkiller for chronic pain. I have yet to meet a doctor who has warned me of the potential of addition, (there are doctors out there who do give a shit) But, of course I know the potential. I am an addict. And I do what addicts do. Drug seek. Yeah, I have legitimate pain... I have Sarcoidosis, Crohn's disease, Sciatica and Fibro.. whatever that is, but I have debilitating pain. What to do, what to do??? Live with it? I have in the past, miserably. Living life on the verge of suicide everyday that I wake up. Sorry, I am getting off track of the point I want to make, which is, why can a doctor charge $300 for an evaluation to "assess" whether or not you are an opiate addict, and then charge you $150 to $350 dollars a month just so that the doctor can use his stupid Fu#@$ng hand to write out a prescription for Suboxone or Subutex? It's utter BS! The fact is, these doctors are making a killing off of the people who suffer from addiction! Why is this allowed to happen? What the hell is going on? I know why, and you do too... MONEY! It seems doctors will gladly get you strung out on cheap opiates, but in the end you're gonna pay big time! It's incredulous! Buprenorphine is an old drug re-branded so that the pharmaceutical company, Reckitt Benckiser, can make BILLIONS of dollars a year to keep you strung out on it. Yeah, it might keep you from using other opiates.. but is it worth it? I say, hell no it isn't! Most opiates are short acting and the withdrawal is short as well. if you want to quit, you can and it won't last even close to the amount of time it will take to kick bupe. To stay on Suboxone is a very bad idea, but believe me, that's exactly what Reckitt and the doctors who prescribe it want you to do! They make billions off of us! In my opinion, Suboxone is only good for one thing... detox! A short time on Suboxone can be useful. But only to detox from your opiate of choice. Start high and tapper off within one week. Thats it! Get off of it and don't stay on it, other wise you're just pushing the pause button on your life. You don't need Suboxone to live a normal life. Life on Suboxone or Methadone is a lie! A lie the pharmaceutical companies bank on you believing. Please, reject the lies. Recovery is possible, without any drugs! I am living proof. I've done it all. from Methadone to Subutex. In the end, it's all death. I've known at least 25 people who are dead now because of these drugs. And it's not these drugs alone that are the problem. One of the main problems with these drugs is that they cause a great deal of anxiety for the user. I've been to clinics across the country and it's always the same. There are dealers outside of the clinics waiting to sell you Klonopin, Xanax and a plethora of other benzos... Also promethazine. For some reason.... I never understood that one. But I guess some people like to nod... I don't. I like to feel in control... whether I am or not, I want to feel like I am. Anyway, I've gotten way off track. My point is: Getting a script of Suboxone should not cost as much as it does. Doctors are making a fortune off of our misery and it is disgusting! String them out for free, (Basically). When they want to get clean? Make it impossible by charging ridiculous prices to get the drug they need. I even read that the food and drug administration allows doctors to charge up to $2500 the first visit for Suboxone, and up to $1200 to $800 a month to stay on the drug. It's a fu*%ing crime in my eyes. When will this shit end? I hope this comment goes viral. People need to know this information. Our "healthcare" industry is not in the business of curing anything. There is no money in that. And make no mistake, it is a business. The best we can do as a people is to live a healthy life and and boycott Western medicine. We must. Their drugs are nothing but band-aids. They cure nothing, and in almost all cases, cause more problems than they fix.
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Unread 08-26-2015, 04:46 PM   #89
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I agree ~Futopher~, Life on Suboxone (or Methadone) is a lie! And from my experience, the doctors absolutely don't care about the long term recovery of their patients. It IS all about the money and the longer you are dependent on Suboxone, the more money is made. The doctors are well aware that Suboxone withdrawal symptoms are much longer and worse than other short acting opiates and they know that if you didn't have enough self-discipline and willpower to detox yourself from your original short-acting opiate of choice then the chances of successfully weaning off of Suboxone is even less. To me life on Suboxone (and/or methadone) is a prison and a trap! Mentally, physically and financially. Living life dependent on a drug is no way to live. I would rather deal with the pain and find other ways to cope and manage the pain than to live life caught in the grips of dependency and addiction, while shelling out all my money to continue to live this.
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Unread 08-26-2015, 07:42 PM   #90
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RobE and ~Futopher~,

You just need to be smart consumers. Find a doctor who accepts your insurance so that you only have to pay the small copay for the visit and the small copay for the Suboxone. I really don't see any distinction between Suboxone and my Novolog (insulin). Same copays for both.

The reason it can be difficult to find doctors who are licensed to prescribe Suboxone for addiction is that it is not that profitable, and the hoops they have to jump through are pretty challenging. Then, on top of it, they have to keep the DEA happy lest they yank their license.

Suboxone helped me return to a stable, normal life. I think if you look objectively you'll find that it really is a great benefit to individuals and society.

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Unread 08-27-2015, 05:34 PM   #91
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I'm sorry but, for me, Suboxone ended up being one big misconception from the beginning. After many years of prescription opiate addiction, I turned to Suboxone thinking it would help me to put an end to my addiction and get my life back. At first I felt Suboxone was the solution. It initially helped me to stop the lieing, cheating, & stealing and other common drug addict behaviors and in turn helped me to improve my relationships with family members and loved ones. After all, I was no longer abusing pain pills and was participating in a (buprenorphine) "Treatment" plan, right?

But eventually after many months on Suboxone, the inevitable day finally came where I could no longer continue fooling myself and I had to admit that I was more addicted and dependent on Suboxone than the pain pills I was previously addicted to! Trying to get off Suboxone proved harder and more miserable than anything I had ever experienced. Attempting to slowly ween off was misery, day after day, week after week, of prolonged symptoms. Albeit mild, but day after day of feeling weak, depressed, anxious, no interest in life, achy and tired, I wondered how I would ever make it to 0(zero) suboxone. Who wants to just generally feel like shit everyday for weeks on end? It's very defeating. It makes you think, "Damn! why didn't I just man up and suffer through 5 or 6 days of short-acting opiate withdrawal symptoms in the beginning?" A couple times as a result of frustration and being fed up, I tried to just drop my doses quickly, resulting in the most extreme intense withdrawal symptoms I had ever felt. I tried to suffer through but the sickness was too extreme, proving impossible and I would end up reverting. I felt stuck. Trapped in a chemical prison.

Yes, I know, many people feel that Suboxone has greatly improved their lives and will defend it to their dependent death. And no doubt, many lives have improved and even been saved. But lets face it, for most people the initial goal for getting on Suboxone is to quit their opiate addiction and dependence, right? Or at least eventually. Am I wrong here? Or do many people get on Suboxone solely and knowingly to simply switch dependence from their original drug of choice to another (Suboxone)? 'Drug Substitution' is the term right? The people that I know that have turned to Suboxone initially started with the intention of weening down and eventually quitting all opiate use, however almost all these people I know have been on Suboxone for much much longer than they anticipated and when trying to get off the drug are struggling much like I did.

I'm writing this post in hopes to help those people who are considering Buprenorphine Tx to avoid the same mistakes I made. @~Futopher~ said it best - "You don't need Suboxone to live a normal life. Life on Suboxone or Methadone is a lie! A lie the pharmaceutical companies bank on you believing. Please, reject the lies. Recovery is possible, without any drugs! I am living proof." - Well, I myself am also am living proof! Eventually after 2 years on Suboxone, I decided I did not want to continue to live my life being dependent on any drug. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired! I got online, found a rehab site, and found a good long-term residential rehab program where I was able to safely detox in a medical setting, and then carry on to do a full life repair program with life skills, coping skills, personal values, integrity, relationships, responsibility, morals, and relapse prevention. I must admit that it was one of the hardest things I have ever done, but it was definately one of the best things I have ever done and it feels so great to no longer be dependent on any drug. Recovery IS possible, and it doesn't require one drug to get off another drug.
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