Addiction Survivors

Notices

Reply
Unread 03-11-2008, 08:17 PM   #1
amandapi
Junior Member
 
Posts: 5
Default New on Sub-Questions

I started Sub two days ago and am not feeling very well. I am having pretty bad widespread pain, fatigue, and depression.

I was so pleased that the induction went well and I had very mild WD's. I was on a 100mcg Fentanyl patch and up to 24mg Dilaudid a day. I was not abusing my medication in any way but I had developed hyperalgia and tolerance and dependence and that is why I started Sub.

I started taking Opiates for chronic pain related to chronic Lyme disease and have been on and off pain meds now three times. My illness tends to fluctuate and I pretty bad relapses and then go back on IV antibiotics to get it under control.

My doctor prescibed the Sub for tolerance and off-label for pain. I'm taking 16mg and wondering if any potential help with pain starts right away or takes time to build up?

Also, does anyone have experience with hyperalgia from pain meds? How long does it typically take for the brain/neurotransmitters to heal?

AS for the depression, I was exited to read the posts here about Sub helping some people so much. Is this typically a fast benefit or a gradual transition?

I'm so glad that I found this group. I've read several posts and the people here seem amazing.
amandapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 08:29 PM   #2
defeatedone
Senior Member
 
Posts: 116
Default

stupid question: hyperalgia = ???
defeatedone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 08:34 PM   #3
NancyB
Administrator
 
Posts: 25,466
Default

defeatedone: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperalgia
NancyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 08:40 PM   #4
NancyB
Administrator
 
Posts: 25,466
Default

Hi amandapi and welcome. Are you taking your bupe throughout the day? Most patients find that to take advantage of the analgesic properties, 2-4mg every 4 to 6 hours works best.

Here's some information on bupe and pain you might find interesting:
"Buprenorphine is used as a pain reliever and to treat opiate addiction. It produces less of a "high" than other opioids, such as codeine and morphine." Suboxone/Subutex.
http://drugabusehelp.com/drugs/buprenorphine/ (Indications/paragraph 1.)

"...and its analgesic effect is due to agonism of ?-opioid receptors."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...rphine#Effects, (Effects/paragraph 1.)

"Buprenorphine has been available...It is a safe and effective analgesic." Use of Buprenorphine in the Pharmacologic Management of Opioid Dependence A Curriculum for Physicians. January 2001, by Eric C. Strain, MD, Editor and Jeanne G. Trumble, MSW, Project Director. Development of the curriculum was supported by the: Center for Substance Abuse Treatment Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration US Department of Health and Human Services.
http://www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/...Curriculum.pdf (pages 3-29.)

"...buprenorphine can be used as an analgesic agent..." Buprenorphine: An Analgesic with an Expanding Role in the Treatment of Opioid Addiction. Susan E. Robinson. (CNS Drug Reviews. 2002. Vol. 8, No. 4, pp. 377-390.)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...2002.tb00235.x

And lastly from the TIP40:
http://www.naabt.org/links/TIP_40_PDF.pdf
PDF page 33, hardcopy page 7:
Buprenorphine has several pharmaceutical uses. It is a potent analgesic, available in many countries as a 0.3-0.4 mg sublingual tablet (Temgesic).

The amount of pain relief from bupe has varied with people. Some find it's adequate, some find that it doesn't help at all. Hopefully you will get enough analgesic benefit from it.

As for depression, it generally has helped people who suffer from refractory depression:
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#10
Buprenorphine has also been found to relieve refractory depression, but this particular use has never been approved by FDA. Refractory depression is depression that has not responded to other treatments. Some patients, who suffered from depression in the past, have experienced relief of symptoms on buprenorphine. (Bodkin,1995)

I hope this is helpful.
Nancy
NancyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 10:01 PM   #5
amandapi
Junior Member
 
Posts: 5
Default

Thanks so much Nancy for the links!

For anyone that has had help with chronic pain or refractory depression, was it a gradual process? I'd love to hear about personal experiences.
amandapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 10:18 PM   #6
FREEBIRD61
Member
 
Posts: 41
Default

Defeatedone, why do u have to make such comments have a little compassion it was unecesarry! This site is all about support. Please me more careful next time u post. FREEBIRD61

p.s. no quest. is a stupid one...........................
FREEBIRD61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 10:42 PM   #7
bonemanjernigan
Member
 
Posts: 39
Default

Amandapi, welcome to the site. I'm so glad you made the switch. I suffer from chronic pain from 4 failed back surgeries and I began to feel pain relief from the sub after about a week. My pain level has gone from a 7 to about a 4-5 depending on the weather. The great thing about sub is that it helps the pain without the fogginess of the opiates and always having to chase your DOC. Give it some time to begin releaving your pain. All of us are different. Keep a positive attitude and get in a good support program and you will win the battle.
Bone
bonemanjernigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 10:43 PM   #8
Pearl
Senior Member
 
Posts: 652
Default

Hi there Free!! It's good to "see" you! How is your daughter doing?

amandapi...your experience is very much like mine. I posted a little bit of my story on the thread about exercise and I don't want to crowd the forum with multiple posting on that.

What I have found is I have MORE in common with everyone here than I don't. Tolerance is a very real problem and I experienced hyperalgesia also. I think I'm lucky though, because the day after I was inducted, I was doing great. I went to a place in CA to be inducted and right after I began the Suboxone, I went on the tour to Alcatraz. There was a lot of walking and I did fine. (I believe I talked to Monica Lewinsky on the ferry!) I thought life couldn't get any better! Of course, with chronic pain, there are ups and downs regardless of the medication you are on. Learning to accept this and deal with it on an ongoing basis can be exhausting and I understand your frustration. Give it time. Learn all you can about his medication and how it works for chronic pain. It at least gives your brain a break and allows you (for me) to get our of that hole and cycle of intolerable pain. Please let me know if there is anything I can share with you that might help.

Elizabeth;}

Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-11-2008, 11:26 PM   #9
okie
Senior Member
 
okie's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,898
Default

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that fentanyl transfers are known to take a little longer to stabilize (as does methadone).

A Sub dr/addictionologist explained this to me once as this.. fentanyl is one of the "stickier" opiates on the receptors in the brain.( I think the technical explanation is that it has a higher affinity at one or more of the receptors in the brain then does short acting opiates)

I have seen a few other members of the forum over the last 2 yrs that also transferred from fentanyl and it did indeed take them a little bit longer to get adjusted.
Hang in there and keep asking questions and reading..it will get better!
Michelle
okie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2008, 12:16 AM   #10
amandapi
Junior Member
 
Posts: 5
Default

Nancy,
my doctor told me to take all of my 16mg in the am. I was wondering myself if I should split it up. I have 8mg tablets and I could take 2 a day or half them and take 4. Sorry I missed that question at first...I was drawn to the links and read too fast.

I'm not sure if there was a "poke" at me but I would like to make one thing clear. Although I don't consider myself an addict, I am no different than anyone else. I have had plenty struggles in my life, mostly healthwise and I am not one to judge.

I often use to wish that I did experience some "euphoria" with my pain meds. I mean, I was developing tolerance and dependence I foolishly wished I would get high if I had to deal with being sick and having physical tolerance. I know that is a thinking error but to me some other relief would have been a relief. I now feel fortunate that I don't have the craving, etc. I took all of my pain meds to the Sherriff's for disposal. I dislike the way they made me feel and I feel FREE!

I have a family member (that I don't see, he's on the street) that is actively addicted to heroin. I think Sub would save his life but he would have to be ready and do a lot of work.

Sorry if I seem defensive, I'm not. I'm no different than anyone. I'm not judging and wish not to be judged.
amandapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2008, 02:12 AM   #11
NancyB
Administrator
 
Posts: 25,466
Default

Hi amandapi, Generally speaking 16mg once in the morning is a therapeutic bupe dose for opioid addiction. The analgesic properties of buprenorphine last from 4 to 6 hours. So you may get more pain relief for a few hours after taking the 16mg, but then it wears off? I'm wondering if your doctor is familiar with dosing bupe for pain.

Also, for pain, bupe works better at the low doses. In Europe they have Temgesic which is buprenorphine for pain and it comes in .2mg and .4mg tablets. That gives an idea of how little can be used.

I hope your doctor would be willing to let you try 2 to 4mg every 4 to 6 hours to see if that helps with your pain relief. In my opinion only, it would be worth the try.

I'm sorry to hear about your family member. It's so sad to hear about. I hope that one day he wants to get well.

I do want to let you know that you are welcome here. We've had others here who take bupe strictly for pain, and we do try to help and support everyone. You're absolutely right. We all have struggles. And the kinder and more supportive we can be, all the better.

Please keep us posted on if you do split your dose and how it works.


Nancy
NancyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2008, 01:58 PM   #12
sharestoys
Senior Member
 
Posts: 109
Default

Hi amandapi,
I have been on Sub for exactly 2 weeks and by no means an expert.. I have had problems with depression, probably, my whole life and espically when the withdrawals hit (of course) but I just wanted to chime in and say that I am living proof that Sub works for depression. The day I inducted I started down a happier road !

I have a pain condition as well, I take 2MG in the morning and 2MG when I get home after work before the rush to get homework for kids and dinner on the table, etc. I feel the Sub is helping with the pain but is not so great for me.. I honestly feel the euphoria is a major component in fighting pain - Im probably going to get slayed for stating that but its how I feel... anyway, welcome to the board.

If I were you I would do a little soul searching and read the definations of 'whats an addict?' etc, Technically Im not an addict by the regular defination but just between you and me I am without question an addict!
sharestoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-15-2008, 03:50 AM   #13
amandapi
Junior Member
 
Posts: 5
Default

I wanted to give everyone an update and another thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have been on Sub 6 days now and seem to be adjusting pretty well. The pain is better than when on the patch and using pills for breakthrough pain. It's still there but more mild-moderate than moderate-severe so that is a big improvement.

I have been pretty depressed all week. I was feeling very suicidal before starting Sub due to chronic health problems. Today I am feeling a bit less depressed but continue to feel a bit "off". Perhaps it is just taking some time to adjust.

I will be seeing my doctor on Tuesday for a follow up to discuss all of this.

Thanks again to all!
amandapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-15-2008, 02:57 PM   #14
defeatedone
Senior Member
 
Posts: 116
Default

"Defeatedone, why do u have to make such comments have a little compassion it was unecesarry! This site is all about support. Please me more careful next time u post. FREEBIRD61"

I do not understand, i think you are the one with little compassion. i had no idea what that word meant and was unable to locate a definition online. i wanted to help but did not understand the question. i dont understand why you would pick on me for that. please understand i have severe low self esteem issues and am EXTREMELY sensitive and what you said hurt.
defeatedone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-15-2008, 03:05 PM   #15
defeatedone
Senior Member
 
Posts: 116
Default

please respond, i am really really hurt by this comment, FREEBIRD, and i would like either an apology or explanation. i dont think my original comment was in any way offensive.
defeatedone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-15-2008, 06:05 PM   #16
Pearl
Senior Member
 
Posts: 652
Default

Hey there defeatedone....I sure don't think Freebird intended to hurt your feelings. He's a good guy and very caring. Of course, this is merely my opinion and as always, I could be wrong. BUT, when we first come off of the opiates, all of use are very sensitive. It is part and parcel of this whole thing. I understand you have other things going on, but try and take postings with a grain of salt. It was explained to me...this type of communication lacks the voice inflections and facial expressions and therefore often seem different than intended. Just something to consider, ya know?

Sh!t, I just spilled water all over my keyboard...I hope this comes out ok.

Elizabeth;}
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-16-2008, 11:32 AM   #17
NancyB
Administrator
 
Posts: 25,466
Default

Hi amandapi, good to hear that you're starting to feel better and both the pain and depression have lessened. Just curious, did you try splitting the bupe up in small doses over the day?

Good luck at your appointment Tuesday.
Nancy
NancyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-16-2008, 12:45 PM   #18
FREEBIRD61
Member
 
Posts: 41
Default

Defeatedone,when I saw the word stupid it just hit a nerve and thought u were referring to Amandapi as asking a stupid quest. I'm sorry if I offended u as those aren't my intentions. Now that I go back and read your post I relized u were just asking what hyperalgia meant "my bad". Thats the last thing I want to do is hurt anyone, just please next time choose better words. Have a good one! FREEBIRD61
FREEBIRD61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-16-2008, 03:09 PM   #19
So.Cal.
Senior Member
 
So.Cal.'s Avatar
 
Posts: 3,427
Default

Hey Amandapi,

When i first staerted sub the first few days were fine,,then about the 3rd or 4th day i started feeling like i was getting wd's and when i called the doctor the receptionist or whatever he was that worked with my doctor said it was common and to just ride it out,,,and after about a week i felt ok.
Tattoo Tommy
So.Cal. is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-16-2008, 11:48 PM   #20
defeatedone
Senior Member
 
Posts: 116
Default

No i was calling ME stupid (as usual - my friends are used to that!) ... lol

i guess maybe we both misunderstood. honestly, i dont insult others, just myself ;o)
i have a severely disabled family member and only 4 family members reside in this country, so i am SUPER sensitive about any reference to lack of intelligence that is unwarranted.
sorry if that was my fault.
defeatedone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-18-2008, 08:18 PM   #21
amandapi
Junior Member
 
Posts: 5
Default

I want to thank everyone for your words of encouragement!

I'm happy to say that this been a fairly easy transition for me. I am having somewhat less pain with Sub than I did with Fentanyl and Dilaudid. The depression seems to be getting a little better as well.

I saw my doctor today and she reminded me that healing takes time. I can be impatient, especially because I have been sick for so long. When I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia almost 7 years ago I had to leave a job that I absolutely loved and it has been a long journey to regain my health. I didn't know until almost 3 years after getting ill that I had Lyme disease and by then I was having severe neurological problems and mostly homebound and bed-ridden. I now am looking to go back to work full-time so things are coming along.

Nancy-I did start taking Sub twice a day and my doctor thinks that may help as well. Some days are much better than others and I don't really have a good explanation why. I may need to increase the dosage of Neurontin that I am taking as well as tweak the Sub dosage. I also take Zanaflex which works pretty well but it knocks me out so I can't use it that much.

I am happy not to be dealing with patches that don't always stick that well and taking pills several times a day just to take the edge off.

I also feel like I was having detox symptoms before starting Sub that are gone now. I asked my doctor about this and she agreed that it may have been due to tolerance.

I hope that you all doing well in your journey.
amandapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2014 Addiction Survivors