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Unread 06-26-2007, 03:24 PM   #1
Suzie
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Default Start Sub Friday Reaching Out

I finally made an appt to begin sub on Fri. I hate to say it, but the cravings are just too intense for me...and this is after 5 plus yrs on methadone..in other words being away from my doc for that long still wasn't long enough to not need some type of opiate therapy, for me. It scares me. I have my boys that I love so much...and I feel myself about to blow...so I figure this time lets be sensible..before things get out of control, be proactive, do something about it.
I spoke to a Dr today, the only one that doesn't want me to come in and stay in his office all day, return the next day and then again next week...at over $150/a pop....at this point in my addiction, I feel I don't need to have my hand held.
My question to all of you , especially those who have been on methadone like me is, the Dr wants to start me on 16 mgs of sub...to me, from all I have read here, its too high..right? I think maybe 4 mgs, we'll see. Also he swears that sub is superior to methadone in that although you feel no effects from it, it takes all drug cravings away...I mean, come on..that can't be. Also (you'll all love this) he says coming off it is NO PROB..if anything you feel like a cold for a day...
How does the sub compare to methadone, for those of you that know? I just need to feel safe and if it takes a pill a day to make that happen, then that's the way it is..today.
So that was two questions, I guess.
Thanks all
Sue
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Unread 06-26-2007, 03:32 PM   #2
Brett
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Sue,

If I remember right, you have been off meth for awhile, Sub is hard to taper off, its much more then a bad cold. 16mg is crazy, 4mg or less will be plenty. I also was on methadone so I know the likelessness and differences. If you havent been on opiates for awhile, 2mg would do you just fine, 16mg will only raise your tolerance back up.

OH Yeah,,, Sub does take away ALL cravings for opiates
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Unread 06-26-2007, 04:26 PM   #3
Mike
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Hi Sue. For me the sub took away ALL of the cravings ad it did it instantly. I think you are right to question the dose. In the TIP-40 it says people starting sub who are not currently dependent on opioids should start with the lowest dose (2mgs)

"Patients who are not physically dependent on opioids should receive the lowest possible dose (2/0.5 mg) of buprenorphine/naloxone for induction treatment." Page 54, http://naabt.org/links/TIP_40_PDF.pdf

I would print this page out and bring it in and explain this is why you think a lower dose might be wise at first.

I think 16mgs might make you feel like you are nodding out. 2mgs would do that people who never took opioids. My taper from sub was not only easier than with anything else but possible. I still had withdrawal but not bad enough to miss work.

I think you are making the right choice to prevent a relapse and also right to want a very low dose. Good luck.
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Unread 06-26-2007, 05:10 PM   #4
pedenter1
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Hi Suzie,

I have to echo the above. I think that sounds like an awfully high dose if you're not currently taking anything but just having cravings and yes, Sub takes aware the cravings immediately.

Good luck, but I would discuss the dosage with your Dr. - it might be that you'll find yourself nodding off at that dose.

Pat
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Unread 06-26-2007, 05:26 PM   #5
judy
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I just started on suboxone yesterday after actually being clean of all meds for 8 days. I was still having some physical issues with stomach, diarhea, and sleep. This was causing me to have cravings and I even tried to obtain some oxy's again, but to no avail (luckily!). So I went in yesterday and they put me on 4 mg. of suboxone. Now I had only been clean for 8 days, and this gave me an intensely uncomfortable high. So yes, I think 16 mg after having nothing in your system for quite some times is crazy! I called my doc today and they are having me go down to 2 (and back up to 3 if that isn't enough). I feel more than confident that 2 will be enough for the craving factor only. Granted I am only on day 2, but I thought I would let you know my experience! And maybe it is the high I am still experiencing talking, but I definitely have no cravings for pills. It immediately took away all symptoms.
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Unread 06-26-2007, 05:28 PM   #6
Suzie
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Thanks all for responding.
What I think is that u all are correct about the dosage...which is why I first asked the question. I have no desire to rebuild a tolerance.
My prob is that in a couple of months or so, I will not have health ins..so do I let the dr write for what he wants and save it?? God, I feel like a real addict with that question, but just being realistic.
And the likenesses and differences with methadone and sub...anyone know? Besides not having to drive 160 miles round trip almost daily. Methadone was a great tool for me..the only problem became the inconvenience to my family when I moved. Then after i was on something so long, I really thought I didn't need it anymore. I am a great believer in opiate therapy...I should have known better.
Methadone used to make me sweat terribly, is sub the same? But, it also made me feel more like me than I do now...again is sub the same??
Thanks all
Sue
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Unread 06-26-2007, 06:14 PM   #7
mybestlife
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SUZIE~ I agree with everyone else as far as your dosage. As for letting the Doc write for more and save them.... the sub is expensive, so if you currently have insurance, it might be a good idea. HOWEVER.... in doing that you will be dosing yourself, as an addict myself, I have to say it might be better to just tell your doctor what is going on. Just explain you feel he Rx`d too much a day, but you would appreciate him giving you as much as possible so your insurance will cover it. Tell him you are afraid you will not be able to continue the sub once your insurance is gone.

GODSPEED
~M~
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Unread 06-26-2007, 06:18 PM   #8
Sub-Zero
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I found sub to be better than meth all around. people who have severe pain might do better with meth. I would take what you can get from the doc and take as little as possible so you can do a slow taper and stay on a low dose. It would be better to be as honest with the doc as you can but with the lack of insurance soon and the appearance the doc may not be very expirienced in this treatment maybe it would be better for you to get what you can and extend your treatment at low doses.

I don't sweat on sub and I feel pretty normal on it too. Unlike meth I found I needed less and less sub as time went on.
Sub
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Unread 06-26-2007, 07:55 PM   #9
NancyB
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Hi Suzie, Here's another thread that you might want to take a look at. Taylor started yesterday after not having any opiates for 3 months, but was experiencing cravings. She started on 1mg and is doing well.
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3638

I hope that helps.

Nancy
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Unread 06-26-2007, 08:04 PM   #10
wil
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by mybestlife

SUZIE~ [u]I agree with everyone else as far as your dosage. As for letting the Doc write for more and save them.... the sub is expensive, so if you currently have insurance, it might be a good idea</u>. HOWEVER.... in doing that you will be dosing yourself, as an addict myself, I have to say it might be better to just tell your doctor what is going on. [u]Just explain you feel he Rx`d too much a day, but you would appreciate him giving you as much as possible so your insurance will cover it. Tell him you are afraid you will not be able to continue the sub once your insurance is gone.</u>
GODSPEED
~M~
Sue, just to agree and add to the above post, it looks like any problems you might have are going to possibly result from a new relationship with a new doctor. If you and he developed a quick trust for each other it would simplify greatly. My reason is, I feel you would be better off with the 2 mg subutex not the 2 or 8 mg suboxone. In addition to avoiding the hassle of a possible reaction from the additive in suboxone, which is very rare, you have the ease of future splitting of the subutex as opposed to the suboxone. However, it takes trust from you doctor for him to Rx the Tex. A good rapport with your doctor would also help with the Rxing greater than needed amounts for later use. Trust me, even if he over Rxs, a large supply of 8 mg suboxone is virtually worthless when you find doses of less than 2 mg are what you find adequate, especially when finally tapering down or off. Try not to even settle for the 2mg suboxone as they are also difficult and crumble more than a little.

I realize the above is posting the obvious, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are rightly seeking information and seem to have a very good understanding of what you want to achieve. Alas, the other partner in this deal sometimes regrettably is not so hip to information and sometimes resists being informed by others. Hopefully, you can put on your best and most charming PR mode and convince your doctor to do the right thing for your healthcare. I do wish you well and success. Wil

PS. I keep harping about un-informed doctors, but I want to be clear my doctor has been wonderful from the start. She has worked with and for me throughout my ongoing deal. I just wish every doctor Rxing this drug would have at least a fraction of her knowledge of Sub. Wil
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Unread 06-27-2007, 12:17 AM   #11
jmaugust
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I have been on sub for almost 3 weeks now. The first 3 days I was on it, I would get a small "high", and then at night I would totally start nodding off after I took my dose. I think on the 3rd day, I was driving to work (30 miles) with my kids, and I had to concentrate really hard to not nod off. It scared me. Soooo I started taking on 2-2mg pills AFTER I got to work and then the other 4 before I went to bed. I started out at 8 mg and then went to 16, but after my recent visit, we decided that 8 would probably be best. I have to say that I've felt a little weird, tired, no energy... But today I have felt GREAT! I think it was just getting on a stable dose. But anyway, what I was saying is that for ME, I didn't feel any effects after 3 or 4 days. I could probaly eat 40 pills right now, and not be able to tell any diference. But of course I'm not going to do that. So far, it has worked wonders for me!

I also wanted to add that I was taking 2mg here and there, throughout the day when I wasn't feeling all that well. I would not recommend doing that unless you are also using for pain.
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Unread 06-27-2007, 01:54 PM   #12
Brett
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Suzie,

I sweat just as bad on sub as I did methadone, You wont be in the fog, like you were on methadone, you will feel normal

Brett
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Unread 06-27-2007, 02:40 PM   #13
Leviticus 13 4
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Congratulation Suzie for taking a proactive approach to your addiction!


"An idiot repeats his/her mistakes. A smart man/woman learns from his/her mistakes. But a genius learns from the mistakes of others."
--Paris Hilton

Lev
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Unread 06-27-2007, 05:07 PM   #14
Suzie
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Brett...
So what's normal?
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Unread 06-27-2007, 05:59 PM   #15
Suzie
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Hi all-
Thank you for all your support...not feeling to great about myself just now. I am one of the first ones to say this addiciton is a disease. I don't take well to rehabs...have been to several, the last being over three months long, inpatient and intensive follow up out patient....Daytop based (tough program) but more effective that anything previously. So after being clean all those yrs, when I relapsed i figured...ok methadone for life...so what if thats what it takes. Then it became a huge inconvenience to my family, so I successfully tapered and was so proud of myself...then my gall blAdder oper and the access to percs...and here I am again. But this sub seems to be working now and I feel ok..pray it's ok
Sue
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Unread 06-27-2007, 07:03 PM   #16
jenn
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Hi Suzie,
Don't beat yourself up. We are only human and we ALL make mistakes. Give yourself credit for being proactive and doing what is in your families best interest.
Just a thought, but if you know your insurance is running out soon, take the 16mg. If you don't need it GREAT!! But if you find you do need it, you would have to pay for another visit to get it.
Although a dose smaller than 16mg will probably work better, until you are on the medicine and get adjusted you just won't know. Some of it depends on how much opiates you are using, and some is just personal. Both my husband and I are on it, but he needs half as much as me to avoid cravings, even though he used a larger amount of opiates than I did. That's what I mean by it being personal to a degree. By your second appointment you will have a better idea. I personally would NOT tell the doctor you want to put some aside. Until you know him a bit better don't be too candid. It may give him the wrong impression. He seems a bit out of touch in some ways, so I would play it safe.
**I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just throwing in a different perspective to consider.**
I agree totally with everyone else though about too high a dose. It makes me sleepy and unmotivated. And tapering off is bearable compared to cold turkey withdraws, but saying it is like a cold is ridiculous. If you were able to successfully taper off m'done, this should be much easier if/when you decide to.
Go easy on yourself and I'll say a little prayer for you.
Jenn
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Unread 06-27-2007, 09:46 PM   #17
gotoffmdone
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Suzie,
I have not sweat on Sub like I did with methadone. I have lost weight on Sub and not gained it, like I did with methadone, mainly because I have more of a desire to do things. On methadone, I could go a week without eating and gain about 5 pounds.

I was taking 400mgs of methadone and made the switch to Sub. I was put on 32mgs, then 40mgs but I had gone into precip wd and I was trying my best to get receptor coverage. I was getting the coverage but the Sub, only acting as an agonist to one of the brain's opiate receptors, was not a one to one replacement. That 50 times more powerful than morphine quote I hear a lot, refers to Bupe's power of attraction to the receptors. When it comes to stimulating that one receptor, it may be 50 times more powerul than morphine because a little goes a long way. If it was a full opiate agonist, it would be one heck of a pain reliever(as well as an addicts DOC).

After a few months, I dropped my dose to 8mgs per day. That takes care of my cravings after being on 400mgs of methadone from the get-go. So, in your case, I would assume that 1-4mgs would suffice. Good Luck.

Oh yeah. Let the guy write you all the Sub he will. If you have been off of methadone for a while and despite cravings, haven't used your DOC and are being pro-active as you put it, then IMO you're right. You do not need your hand held.

I know how much like an addict you can feel or assume others will think of you as, for asking questions sometimes. But isn't it amazing just how much more closely we watch our money, when we are not having to wrestle withdrawals on a constant basis?

Wayne
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Unread 06-27-2007, 09:52 PM   #18
Brett
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Suz,

Normal is doing what we want each day without thinking about drugs or being under the influence of them,
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Unread 06-27-2007, 10:37 PM   #19
cat1
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Susie if i were you i would definetly not tell the doctor,and just keep saving those subs,there so expensive i'm paying 500.00a month for 80 subutex,8mg. so your crazy if you don't start stocking up before your insurance runs out.Remember it's all for the money,doctors are in for it for the q

it's not addictive behavior your just trying to save some money no one can blam you GOOD LUCK!!!!!

CAT
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Unread 06-28-2007, 01:12 PM   #20
Suzie
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Hi Everyone!
Wow, you all are so wonderful in offering your support to me. It means a lot, thanks!
So I started yesterday. The Dr. put me on 16 mgs, but I took 8mgs and plan today on 4mgs. The improvement in cravings, mood, energy level...everything...was noticeable and almost immediate! Even to my children..last night they actually said, mom, you're in such a good mood! Which makes me realize how sh***y I truly must have been as of late. I took yesterdays dose at 1PM and now it's almost 9am and I feel no need to dose again....maybe i could even try every other day....just a thought. If I do take anything today, it will be 4mgs...we'll see. I am happy I made this decision at last and I am going to let the dr write for 16 mgs and save it up for when my insurance will stop because of the divorce. I guess I must have taken it properly yesterday..I was concerned I swallowed to much. I really did not want to be on another opiate after coming off methadone, but I am ok with this. I know in order to have felt normal would have taken a lot of time and with my life as it is, I feel I don't have that luxury. From this site I learned why I was able to stay clean for so long before. I did h since my mid 20's. In and out of rehab several times, my addiction escalated quickly. Then I went on vacation for almost 3 yrs. Although it was tough in the beginning, that time away allowed my brain to begin producing endorphins normally again. I felt great and continued to do so for over ten years when I came home. Long enough to get married, and have four children and build a beautiful life. After my fourth, I had some back pain...the drs rx'd vicidon and perc and I began to abuse them over time..so I immediately when on methadone (knowing where I came from and how easily I could go back there). So now some odd 5 yrs later even after a taper from meth and truly being away from those addictive thoughts and behaviours for so long, being drug free was still like the beginning of being h free all those yrs ago. I could see it would have taken a long while for my brain to produce endorphins normally again. Can anyone relate to that? I am grateful sub is available to us...not thru a clinic, but in a manor which I find dignified and respectful.
by Gods Grace it will go well! I even had a good experience at the pharmacy yesterday, which was another concern after some of the stories I have read here. I knew to call around first to see if it was kept in stock, which was a time saver for me..so again, thanks to this site and everyone's input for that. And I was lucky. 20 8mgs cost me $15 thru ins. Maybe I'll go for the cobra, we'll see.
Thanks all and God Bless!
Sue
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Unread 06-28-2007, 01:47 PM   #21
NancyB
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Hi Suzie, I'm really happy you're feeling better now. I believe it is a quality of life question that only each individual can answer as to whether to be addiction free or drug free. As long as you don't swallow the pill itself, you'll be fine.

Nancy
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Unread 06-28-2007, 02:05 PM   #22
Suzie
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Thank you Nancy,
You hit the nail right on the head for me....quality of life is what it's all about, and if I need to disolve a little orange pill a day, or even every other day....and it helps to keep my life in balance....then I say thank you God!
Sue
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Unread 07-05-2007, 01:56 AM   #23
Gem37
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Suzie

I finally made an appt to begin sub on Fri. I hate to say it, but the cravings are just too intense for me...and this is after 5 plus yrs on methadone..in other words being away from my doc for that long still wasn't long enough to not need some type of opiate therapy, for me. It scares me. I have my boys that I love so much...and I feel myself about to blow...so I figure this time lets be sensible..before things get out of control, be proactive, do something about it.
I spoke to a Dr today, the only one that doesn't want me to come in and stay in his office all day, return the next day and then again next week...at over $150/a pop....at this point in my addiction, I feel I don't need to have my hand held.
My question to all of you , especially those who have been on methadone like me is, the Dr wants to start me on 16 mgs of sub...to me, from all I have read here, its too high..right? I think maybe 4 mgs, we'll see. Also he swears that sub is superior to methadone in that although you feel no effects from it, it takes all drug cravings away...I mean, come on..that can't be. Also (you'll all love this) he says coming off it is NO PROB..if anything you feel like a cold for a day...
How does the sub compare to methadone, for those of you that know? I just need to feel safe and if it takes a pill a day to make that happen, then that's the way it is..today.
So that was two questions, I guess.
Thanks all
Sue
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Unread 07-07-2007, 06:17 PM   #24
MMayer282
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Sue-

Told you this doctor was good, weingarten, right? If you need my help you know where to find me, I am so proud of you!

-Miranda
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Unread 07-09-2007, 05:05 PM   #25
Suzie
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Miranda,
I thank u for the recommendation, but I used someone close to me up here. Enoc Chen (spell?) he is in Bohemia right near McArthur airport. He got me in quick when I needed.
But thanks
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