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Unread 12-12-2010, 04:09 PM   #1
baj42
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Default Mike's (or anyone's) successful taper

Hey Mike, Nancy and everyone,

Been a long time since being on here! I've been on Subutex for about 13 months now and I would like to try life without it....AGAIN! I want a GOOD taper schedule and maybe suggestions on vitamins, herbs, etc... Thanks to the medicine, I've made a lot of positive changes and, for the most part, life is good again! I just feel like its time....to atleast TRY, and would appreciate advice from those who have tapered down to nothing.

I don't wanna sound rude, but I would appreciate ONLY first-hand experiences....not someone you heard about. I was taking 16 mgs at my peak, but last month I lowered to 12mgs daily (there-about...hard to get exact). For those who may ask "why dont ya talk to your doctor?.....he's only good for his signature...TRUST ME! I expect a certain amount of discomfort, but like most, less discomfort is always better! Thanks to all who have shared on this site.....and by the way....I hear the strips are available...would they be easier to gauge the miligram for tapering? Thanks guys! Andy

Last edited by baj42; 12-12-2010 at 04:14 PM..
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Unread 12-12-2010, 05:31 PM   #2
Mike
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Hi baj42,
Pace your taper with your brain's ability to get used to each decrease. That means there is no set rate every decrease might require different times before reducing further. If you feel bad you are going too fast. As a very general guideline I'd approximate 25% decreases. I don't recommend any concoction of supplements because it is that behavior of solving problems with drugs that you don't want to reconnect with. Keep busy, go slow, and don't add any new drug related rituals to your life. Also only take it once/day while tapering in the morning, that way you don't have to think about it all day. This is important because the more complicated you make it and the more it is an event in your life the more you'll have get used to being missing once off. If you forget to take it one day you'll know you are doing it right. Good luck.
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Unread 12-12-2010, 10:52 PM   #3
Lawrence-Davison
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Hi. I also in the past tapered off but never made it after couple of months post subutex. I did what Mike is saying but just couldnt handle the depression and insomnia. Actually tapering wasn't so much of an issue for me, I weanded down every 5-7 days, I also cut 0.4 in half and did slow from there too. It's the lingering withdrawals which take its toll. I really hope it works out for you and others but I just can't seem to make it. It's not like I've been an addict all my life and not like am grandad, if anything am in good shape and don't even have the desire to crave any drugs. It's just subutex which is holding me back in life. Even my own Doctor said the depression and all the symptoms are related to post subutex. Nobody on earth has to go through months and months of post issues from sub, just doesn't make any sense. I never thought it would be this bad. I've done all sorts of tapers including a slow one and even taking 0.1 and stopping from that dose but to no avail. I never took any supplements or even prescription aids yet still I felt as thought I was in a dark place. This subutex really needs to be reviews for maintence. I do admit the subbies helped me at the very beggining but subbies took over and the only aspect of this is the withdrawalds and post issues, even being on it is really no life, not for me anyway. I want to be able to enjoy things, enjoy my work, enjoy socializing, enjoy excercising and enjoy life, sad aspect is I have everything I want from life except being sober. I just don't know what to do, maybe go through the ibogaine again? on the naltrexone or something, maybe transfer to methadone, this just doesn't make sense, doesn't matter what method I try I still have the exact same symptoms lasting for months. I wouldnt recommend my worse enemy to go through that. Anyway I wish to recieve any help, anything possible, to give me some light to reach to.
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Unread 12-12-2010, 11:34 PM   #4
Lawrence-Davison
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Hi Mike. I can't quite figure out how subutex makes the brain to heal? I thought it was opposite. How can a substance strong as subutex heal a brain which is not consuming natural sobrieity? how is the brain meant to heal with a medication such as subutex?. Because evertime I tried to quit I felt my brain was slowly getting back to normal but it's a very long road and I cant afford to be depressed and have my brain being repaired for months and months.

I don't know where that idea of brain healing comes from. I was a heroin addict for 5 years and after that when on subutex. I never used to get depressed after heroin detoxes, it's only when I tried coming off subbies that I get depressed and can't sleep for months on end. A brain can't heal itself if you put substances in it. A mind can only heal naturally and that is without any opiates in your brain and body, my doctor discussed this with me recently too, but never mentioned about "brain" healing while on subutex. I keep trying to figure what your saying but forgive me for my ignorance I just don't understand it.

Whenever I've tried to come off subutex I dont feel the need to relapse or take any drugs or medications, but the fact of not functioning and being depressed and in post sub symptoms just makes me go back on subutex. I never felt like this when I detoxed from heroin.

I did heroin recreationally but I never lead a junkie lifestyle. I was introduced to subutex by a friend and it all took off from there. When I wanted to quit before I told myself this is it am ready, never had desire to use anything, but everytime am getting on with my life by working and just trying to be like anybody else who's sober I get these feelings of despair, on top of that I can't sleep in which turn effects my livelyhood and my life. All because of subutex.

So I really don't understand this brain healing business while on a strong medication. You can't think straight if your on a medication powerful as subutex. So how are you meant to heal? for example if you have your tooth extracted you let it heal naturally don't you? you don't put a mediction in there to make it heal, you let nature do it's course, so I cant understand about the brain healing while on subutex. Am not taking theoritcally here but from my personal experiece. I have done a short stint on subutex few times and maintence but with the same results, except on maintence I took nearly a year to wean and even then I suffered for many months until I got back on Subutex.

Am not chasing a high or sorting out my life or anything, I just want to be rid of this subutex dependency as it's no life being on it, for me anyway. Am still young and still got a lot of life ahead of me so I don't need this right now. If subutex was making me feel good and normal then I would not complain, but few hours after I take my dose I begin to feel ungood and less intrested in just about anything, and this happens to all people who be on subutex maintanece programme. Just doesn't make any sense.
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Unread 12-13-2010, 01:21 AM   #5
Cally
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Hello Andy,

I “tapered to nothing” stopping at 2mgs. I started at 24mgs per day, tapered to 2mgs per day. I stopped taking suboxone in July of 2006 with no discomfort of any kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baj42 View Post
I lowered to 12mgs daily (there-about...hard to get exact
IMO It is prudent for you to know your exact daily dose. “there about” isn’t productive when you lower your dose or “taper”.

I agree with everything Mike has told you.

Lowering or tapering 2mgs at a time is recommended. You can go from 12mgs to 10mgs then 8mgs and so on.

8mg suboxone film strips can be easily cut to 1/8th mg. This is a photo that Tim posted.

http://www.naabt.org/tl/film_cut_dime.jpg
 
Suboxone has a half life of approximately 37.5 hours, so it can take 3 or more days to notice any effect (if any) from your decrease or taper. You can always go up again if you should feel any discomfort. Discomfort is a sign to slow down your taper, that’s all.

No one can give you a perfect taper schedule. People can do well tapering every week, some don’t. People can do well tapering once a month. This is why the “cookie cutter” and “one size fits all” doesn’t work.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by baj42 View Post
I expect a certain amount of discomfort, but like most, less discomfort is always better.
Don’t expect discomfort! Expecting discomfort is shooting yourself in the foot. The reason for suboxone therapy is to stop without any discomfort. I was excited about stopping. I was looking forward to it. It literally never dawned on me to feel bad.

Suboxone IS NOT our DOC, it’s a horse of a different color. Don’t put suboxone in the same category, think of it as your friend.
 
Here are taper story’s from here.
 
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16678

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16077
 
Have you contacted Here To Help? They will provide a free personal coach, counseling options, click on this and read about it.

http://www.naabt.org/hth/

Keep posting!
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Unread 12-13-2010, 07:34 AM   #6
NancyB
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Hi Andy! Nice to 'see' you. I just wanted to stop in and say hi and give you a couple of links on the strips. This one has a link to the $75 discount coupon which is good through March, 2011.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=25069

This one is people's experiences with the strips:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=25176

Best wishes with your taper!

Nancy
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Unread 12-13-2010, 09:39 AM   #7
Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence-Davison View Post
Hi Mike. I can't quite figure out how subutex makes the brain to heal?
Subutex does NOT heal the brain, I never said that. Subutex allows you to make changes in your life and its those changes in behavior that heal the brain. It takes reconditioning, not a drug, the drug only stops withdrawal and cravings, so its possible to make the changes. If someone don't make changes and only takes subutex expecting it to heal them, they will just be right back where they were after they taper off. I'll try and find a thread that explains this in more detail.


these posts explain it better

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...32&postcount=5

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...38&postcount=7

Last edited by Mike; 12-13-2010 at 09:41 AM.. Reason: added links
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Unread 12-13-2010, 11:28 AM   #8
TIM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence-Davison View Post
....I don't know where that idea of brain healing comes from....
Many scientists have contributed to this understanding but here are two of the pioneers, Tom Kosten MD published a paper for NIDA "The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment" and discusses specific brain adaptations caused by addiction and how some of these changes can be reversed. Nora Volkaw MD used PET scans to prove that the brains of addicted people have been altered and that some of these changes can be reversed. Until then it was only hypothesized that the brain changes were reversible. She showed that the brain was more pliable than earlier believed. Some of her work is shown in The science of Addiction

Tim
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Unread 12-13-2010, 07:50 PM   #9
stp747
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Lawrence-Davison, I don't feel "ungood" or less interested in anything, just the opposite, and I have been on sub. maintenance for 16+ months. I have never been more productive in my life. I realize sub. does not work out for some people, but it does for some, so not everyone feels like you do on sub. I hope you can taper off soon without the PAWS symptoms you have described.Try to change your behaviors and thoughts through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, it can be very benificial for people with substance use disorders. Steve
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Unread 12-15-2010, 10:05 AM   #10
Mary
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Hey Andy, cool to see you. For my taper gig, I went from 16 to 12 to 8 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 0. Started in June 05, finished June 06. I took 2 months to do the 2 to 0. Reduced down .5 every two weeks. Kept an open mind - no set end date. That'll mess with you if you don't make it. Exercise, exercise, exercise. Eat right, stay hydrated - not with sugary crap - B Vitamins are good. Just don't force yourself if you're not feeling like you're ready. Positive tapering beams! -Mary
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Unread 12-17-2010, 12:39 AM   #11
baj42
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Thanks guys! i Just wanted to drop in for a bit and let everyone know I appreciate the responses. I'll post again tomorrow...I have a couple "not sure's" and can't stay on long tonight. Thanks again! - Andy
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