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Unread 08-23-2006, 06:49 PM   #1
Walk
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Sorry if this topic has been exhausted here somewhere. But just looking for any feedback. As of tonight, I will be off of a ~60mg/day hydro habit (about 3 years) and starting Suboxone 2mg-4/day as soon as I feel ill.

Is this going to work? I'm scared to death based on all of my previous attempts to CT. Just got too sick from WD to function.
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Unread 08-23-2006, 07:00 PM   #2
Bassdad
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Walk,
WELCOME TO NAABT. Have you tried every other way to stop using? It's a good idea to exaust all roads before trying Buprenorphine. Your use is very light.Before starting Bup you might want to consider trying to stop without it. IMHO.......

What are you using Hydro for?

Concerned, Bassdad
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Unread 08-23-2006, 07:34 PM   #3
deniese
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Walk, what Bassdad said is true, but if you have tried to go off of them yourself and failed, or if it is affecting your life, meaning your work, your family, your finances, then sub may be your answer. It has worked well for me, and many others. My doc was also hydrocodone, and I had tried stopping many times and always relapsed.. I was concerned that you said you were doing this on your own. Will you not be taking your first dose in the dr.s office? That is the way it should be done in case you have any problems. You really need to read all the information from the home page. Also make sure you read about precipitated withdrawl, you must be far enough in withdrawl before taking the sub. Again, please read all the info before taking it. I know someone more knowledgeable than me will be along to help you soon. Sub really is a good drug, if used properly, and if you really want to quit. Good luck, Deniese
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:05 PM   #4
Walk
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Thanks. Just have tried CT many times. Yeah, I am pretty weak not to be able to get over this on the amount I have been taking. I think it is combined with depression that makes it more difficult. Job, Hobbies, Wife. All affected. Nothing serious yet.

Doc gave me Rx and said wait until you are in WD before beginning first dose. I understand that it is an antagonist as well and could cause problems if I still have opiates in the system.
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:07 PM   #5
Bassdad
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Walk,
What deniese says about induction at a doctors office is true and probably the best way to find out what dose to start with. Although, I induced myself with instructions from my doctor. I just took it slow and still ended up taking a very high dose to begin with. I had trouble controlling the withdrawls, not so much the cravings as I was extremely sick. After being in residentail treatment I left without any Bup, which I had been on the entire time. I also detoxed from Oxycontin and Benzos while in treatment. Leaving treatment without anything for Wd or cravings left me feeling pretty sick about 30 hours after my last dose of Bup. I went into WD and was taken to the E.R. by way of ambulance. I was not awake and totally unaware of what was happening. Thank God I had set up Bup treatment with a local doctor before entering res. treatment. This is a very strong drug and should only be used when all else fails. Good luck, be informed before making a decision......

Later, Bassdad-Day 134 on Bup Treatment-Dosing for Pain and Depression also
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:08 PM   #6
Walk
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I meant agonist. I know about the other compound there intened to prevenet mis-use or abuse.
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:24 PM   #7
glimmertwin
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Walk -

I understand how it feels to CT, it sucks worse than anything. And I've done it so many times, only to relapse.

I wanted to let you know that sub has a really good reputation of helping the depression. Depression has always been my biggest trigger to use again. This medicine has worked beautifully for me. I started out with just 2mgs, I was in-patient for 5 days, and we went all the way up to 32mgs for a couple of days. By the time I went home I was on 24mgs, and soon after I was down to 16. That is where I am now, I've been on sub since March 2005. I had gone as low as 8mgs, because I didn't think I needed 16. But the depression was coming back, so I went back up to 16, and that is my best therapeutic dose. This stuff really works for me and I do hope it works for you.

Good luck getting started, if you have any questions, just ask. There are some awesome people on this board who will be happy to help you out.

Take care,
Sheryl
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:35 PM   #8
chicagofire
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I think you are doing the right thing. I was taking about double that amount and I started on double the amount of sub you are. I did not induce in the doctors office (although I would have, I went cold turkey two days). Just take it easy and you will be fine. The stuff works miracles.
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:38 PM   #9
Walk
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glimmertwin - thanks for the feedback re: depression. That is my real fear. I have been on several anitdepressnants without any results. Opiates do the job, but only make things worse down the road. I hope the bup helps.

Bassdad - I was referred to an inpatient program for alcohol and pills, but my read was that they only cared about observation during the the etoh cessation. They said nothing about treating the opiate dependence and said I would be out in 3-4 days. I knew where that put me in terms of WD and decided against it.
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Unread 08-23-2006, 08:40 PM   #10
NancyB
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Walk, Welcome. Here's a link that you might want to take a look at. It's about precipitated withdrawal and preparation for your first dose. Please note that the times given are estimates. You know best about you'll be in mild to moderate withdrawal.
http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#70
Let us know of any questions.

Nancy
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Unread 08-24-2006, 05:30 PM   #11
Walk
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It's been 17 hours and I am little uncomfortable. I'm sure you know the feeling, 5mg hydrocodone would take care of it. Is it too soon to start the Suboxone (2mg) this evening at about 20 hrs?
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Unread 08-24-2006, 05:36 PM   #12
Bassdad
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Walk,
IMHO--At the daily dose of Hydro you had been taking, I personally think you could start the Sub now without suffering precipitated withdrawl. Just stay close to us and let us know what's happening. GOOD LUCK TO YA!!!

Bassdad
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Unread 08-24-2006, 05:43 PM   #13
Debbie
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Walk, I started Sub after less than 12 hours off the hydro. My hydro use was a little heavier than yours but less than most. I was so afraid that I was not far enough into WD for it to work but everything went very smooth. I had absolutely no problems. I started with 2 mg and was very comfortable after 15-20 minutes. You'll be amazed at the way you feel. In my opinion, 20 hours will be plenty of time.

Good luck. Please check back in and let us know your progress.
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Unread 08-24-2006, 05:57 PM   #14
Walk
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Thanks. I'll have to wait because the sub is at home. Yeah, my use is relatively light. But it has become a way for the past three years. If this stuff just keeps me from getting sick, I'll be very happy.

Bassdad - to answer your original question, I had an off-road mc race endo which put me in the hospital for a month with multiple fractures and a collapsed lung. Lots of morphine and percocet. That's how I got started. But I don't need it now. Really didn't after a couple of weeks in the hospital. But they gave it if I asked.
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Unread 08-24-2006, 06:48 PM   #15
Brett
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Walk,

You will be more dependant on the sub then you are the hydro. Your current dose of hydro is very low compared to the strenght of suboxone. I would be surprized if you need more then 2mg per day. Just remember you have to taper off sub someday too, and its no picnic. How long have you been on hydro steadily? 3 years? How did you keep from developing tolerance if you have taken the hydro consistenly for a extended period of time? I am telling you these things because I want you to know suboxone isnt a miracle pill, there is still work to do. I can tell you this if I had your habit and I know what I do about suboxone, I would find a way to taper off the small amount of hydro your on. If you are feeling only a little uncomfortable at 17 hours why dont you just wean off the hydro, forget cold turkey

Brett
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Unread 08-24-2006, 08:12 PM   #16
rufusxs
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Walk,

Read carefully what I've posted below:

I had a much heavier habit than yours. I was on about 10x your dose daily, and of Oxy, not Hydro, the former being "stronger." I waited just about 24 hours, took 16mg of Bup, nothing, then took another 8mg and then another 8mg, all within about 3 hours, and I went in to induced withdrawal. It was the most horrible night of my life, and the next day and day after were no picnic.

Make sure that you're in a really good state of withdrawal, at least 24 hours, but preferrably more like 36 before you start. Also, find out ahead of time what to do if you do go in to induced withdrawal (i.e., take more Bup, which I didn't know at the time and didn't do because I was afraid that too much Bup was causing my violent wretching, vomiting, diarreah, etc...).

On the flip side (and I don't state this to minimize your problem, I'm just stating it as a matter of relative numbers), your habit isn't THAT heavy. 60mg per day of Hydo for 3 years means that you must have started at such a low dose that your tolerance was able to build over 3 years, or that your really only got seriously hooked in the more recent part of the last 3 years, etc... Understanding that everyone's physiology is unique, as well as psychology relative to addictive behaviour, I wonder if some of the other suggestions earlier in this thread regarding tapering or other forms of quitting wouldn't be better for someone in your position?

BTW, I too suffered my initial injury during an Enduro where I met a tree in third gear. It was aggravated by a high-side during a track-event that tossed me about 30 ft. Do you still race? I do (did while I was high many times, all without injury thank God) and the one thing that I can tell you is that if you love riding and racing, on and/or off-road, you can still do those things on Bup quite easily and without and loss of coordination, etc...
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Unread 08-24-2006, 08:29 PM   #17
Bassdad
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Rufus,
Could you please explain to me what you are talking about when you say "induced withdrawl"? Would that be the same as "precipitated withdrawl"? Just curious, never heard withdrawl explained in that way.

Thank You, Bassdad-Day 135 on Bup Treatment-7mg Today, So Far. P.L.#8
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Unread 08-24-2006, 11:18 PM   #18
Mary
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Walk, let us know how you're doing. You'll know when you're in WDs so then it should be ok. I waited 24 hours out of paranoia, but probably would have been ok earlier because I felt like absolute crap. That was coming from snorting H. Energy beams to you! -Mary
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Unread 08-24-2006, 11:21 PM   #19
beginagain
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We are not discouraging you - just encouraging you to consider everything before you jump. It might not feel like a "little dose" to you and I totally understand. I was probably taking near double your dose at the time of my induction in March. 6mg was way too much for me - 4mg made me very sleepy and was probably still high. 2mg was about perfect. I was 12 hours past my last Hydro dose when I was induced and only beginning to feel those first signs of physical withdrawal.

We just want you to make the best choice for you with all the information available. Is it possible to do a taper off your drug of choice at home? Family support that could help provide the pills on a taper schedule? There are some medicines that could also help alleviate the symptoms.

But like others said - be conscious of the fact that you will have to taper off Sub later anyway and since I have not made it to the end of my taper yet I cannot attest to how easy or hard it might be. But just weigh your options and do the thing that you feel in your heart is right for your situation. Good luck
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Unread 08-25-2006, 11:57 AM   #20
Walk
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After hearing some of these stories, I was extremely anxious when I took my first 2mg of sub yesterday afternoon at 4:30. I was waiting for the WD to get worse and was wondering what I would tell my wife and how I would deal with work if this happened.

But, nothing happened. Or, rather, something good happened. My runny nose went away, as well as my cramped stomach and anxiousness. I thought to myself, this is doing something and I'm pretty sure it's not precipitated wd.

By this morning I was felling a little rough. This would have been about the time I would really be feeling bad based on when I last stopped the hydro. So I took another 2mg at 6:30. By 7:30 I was feeling really well. No high or euphoria, but no WD symptoms at all.

I know my abuse was not at the professional level as it was for some of you. But for ME, it is a problem and think this sub is finally going to help.

I have tried CT and tapering before without success. Call me weak. Thats OK. I just know that the dysphoria was my downfall even 10 days out. The physical discomfort I could deal with.

I'm glad I found this group of MDs. It was almost by accident.
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Unread 08-25-2006, 01:06 PM   #21
russell
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Walt-
Of course you feel better! I'm glad you didn't let the "professionals" discourge you.

Question: How many people come to this site, with a minor pill problem, who have not tried every thing to quit? Has ANYBODY tried bupe without trying to taper off your DOC?

OF COURSE NOT! By the time we come to this site, we have tried everything to quit, THATS WHY WE ARE SEARCHING THE F'ING INTERNET FOR HELP!

If I would have listened to this BS before starting sub, I would still be chasing pills, not 10 months in recovery!

For the record, my use was light. 6-12 pills a day, but I to could function on 1 or 2,if I had to.

QUIT DISCOURGING PEOPLE!

Scott-
(edited for spelling)
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Unread 08-25-2006, 01:17 PM   #22
Mary
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Hey Walk, Hell, you're NOT weak just because you couldn't do it on your own. If that's the case, then everyone who's on it is weak, because none of us could do it either.

Annnyways. Happy it worked. Keep us posted on how you do during the day. You *may* need to take a little more if the WDs and crap start coming back because you didn't have a full day on it from starting late yesterday. The *right* dose is the lowest dose to keep that stuff away, and during the beginning you may need a little more to stabilize and then you might find yourself reducing your dose again. Just don't make yourself suffer needlessly. Good energy beams to you! -Mary
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Unread 08-25-2006, 01:40 PM   #23
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Walk,

No matter what your DOC was, you know best whether you have a problem or not, NO MATTER what the amount. Hydro was my DOC also, although I was on a higher dose than you, which most likely you would have ended up there also.

I happen to agree with Russell(Scott) on this one. Exactly, by the time someone ends up researching ways to get off of their DOC they know they have a problem and probably have tried numerous times to go Cold Turkey or wean themselves. Let all os us who were on hydro think back and remember what it was like to try and wean off of them. It's not fun and it's not easy hence the reason we are all here. As long as we educate ourselves on bup and understand what we are getting into then we shouldn't have a problem. Yes someday some of us may decide to wean off of sub or better yet we find it helps our daily depressive state of mind and have decided that we may just continue sub as long as we have to and never wean off. My personal feeling here is if someone has found their way to this board seeking help, then they need help.

Walk I'm happy you've found this site and Welcome! Secondly, even better yet, I'm happy you've found yourself a dose of sub that is working for you. I do agree with the less is better with sub. I started at 8mg and have found I only need 2mg. This Halloween will be my one year mark and I am thrilled with the way my life has gone. Just make sure you educate yourself and by reading everything you can on here is a good place to start and most likely finish.LOL(personally I haven't taken the time to check any other sites, everything I found to need is right here!) Another good idea is to get your family to read about sub and how it works. I don't know if your spouse or family is aware of your problem but if they are, educate them also.

Please continue to post your experiences and questions and best of luck to you!

Doris

oops spelling edit
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Unread 08-25-2006, 02:12 PM   #24
Brett
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Russell,

Sub treatment is not for everyone who has a pill habit. I feel we should help those with very small habits see all there options. There have been many people come here who had very small habits and become more dependant on sub then they were on there DOC. I didnt see where walk said he teied to taper off hydro, all I saw was where he tried CT. It could be easier to taper off 6 hydro a day then it is suboxone. I for one will continue to tell people all there options the best I can. One other thing to look at is dependancy verses addiction, usually addiction grows over time and thats when suboxone can save someone. Based on my own experience and limited knowledge if I had a very small habit I would get all the help I needed to taper off then if that didnt work I would try sub.
Elbowguts would be a good person to ask his opinion on this, he also had a small habit and become MUCH more dependanton sub

Brett
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Unread 08-26-2006, 02:38 PM   #25
Walk
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Looks like - after just two days into this - that 4mg of sub/day is going to be more than enough for me. I will just keep expanding the time between doses and discuss with my MD in two weeks.

I'm glad I found this site as it has really helped me (along with my doctor, of course) make a decision on my addiction treatment.
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Unread 08-26-2006, 03:29 PM   #26
Bob34
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Walk, 4mg a day is my dose too it works fine for me.. I'm glad i didnt find this sight before i started treatment because some of the people here would have scared me away.. I don't understand this but there entitled there opinion.. and i do not beleive there going to quit making Sub it will be plenty for everybody lol.. I suffered no wd at all i took 70 mg of my doc at 7 am my first day, at 2 pm the SAME DAY i took a dose of Sub !! no problems what so ever but everybodys difrent i guess, but it was a breeze for me
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Unread 08-26-2006, 03:39 PM   #27
OhioMike
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Walk,

Congratulations! It sounds as if you are on your way to recovery. Just remember, as time goes on, keep yourself at the lowest possible dose for your body. And please don't put pressure on yourself for this. Don't make it a project, just let it happen, lower it randomly as you feel good about it. You will be surprised how over time how little you will be using. Enjoy life Walk, you have taken a great step toward getting back to normal.

I'm real happy for you.

Mike
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Unread 08-26-2006, 04:14 PM   #28
Suture
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Bob34

.. I'm glad i didnt find this sight before i started treatment because some of the people here would have scared me away..
Please! If there is anyone else contemplating treatment, like Bob was-Don't base a potentially lifesaving decision on any discussion board. Verify questionable comments, facts independently from known credible sources and your doctor. Bob, glad your decision was not influenced by scary stories on the web, and congratulations with your successful transition.
S-
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Unread 08-28-2006, 12:32 AM   #29
Brett
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Walk,

How are you doing with the sub? hope you are feeling good.
It will take a week or two to get settle down and the time will allow your body to adjust to the sub. Finding the lowest dose that prevents WD is the dose that will make you feel the best. are you still at 4mg?
any side effects? Sorry for all the questions just wanted to see how your doing.


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Unread 08-28-2006, 11:36 AM   #30
Walk
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Thanks. Yeah, 4mg/day. But I could go lower. Will see my doc this Thursday and discuss. Woke up this morning with no ill feelings after 15 hours of no sub. SE? Maybe some lower back pain.
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Unread 08-28-2006, 02:31 PM   #31
dodo
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Walk,

Glad to hear your feeling so well! Enjoy life!

Doris
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