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Unread 12-15-2005, 02:41 PM   #51
Diesal
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Hey Judy... Anthony here.... Listen, I don't know what happened but I know subutex worked for me and I was using almost triple to what Tony was using. I waited 17 hours before they gave it to me and I only started out with 4mg's. Whatever he does DO NOT go back to the dope.... It just gets harder every time you go back.... Continue the sub treatment.... Just tell him if he goes back to the H he will have to endure all of this crap again and it might be even worse!!!
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Unread 12-15-2005, 03:03 PM   #52
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Judy,
I think the sub DID block the H. I think him feeling better was the Sub kicking in, that's why the first bag didn't do anything. If he still has not done any H then he will NOT go into withdrawl if he takes aniother 8mg today. He does not have to wait until he feels withdrawal. This could still work, the induction may not have been a failure. So he needs to take another 8mgs. before he takes any H. I've seen this happen before this same way.
Jake
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Unread 12-15-2005, 03:09 PM   #53
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Hi Anthony:
I think what happened is that Tony just didn't have enough dope out of his system. I think he went into precipitated withdrawl and didn't give the sub enough time before he copped.

Jake:
I'm going to call Tony and tell him not to do any dope. He, like I said, is feeling pretty good, not awesome, but good. What I need is a Doctor to verify what you're saying, I'm hoping that shrew of a doctor will tell him to dose himself, but she told him he's be out of commission for three days, so I'm thinking she'll tell him he'll go back into withdrawl. If he hears that, he won't risk it. I asked him to call me periodically throughout the day and leave me voicemails telling me how he's doing. He can easily take a break and run home to take some Sub, as easily as he would have to do a run. The other problem here is that if the doctor gets pissed at him, she may not prescribe him anymore and we only have 20mg left. Any advice on that?
Judy

You know Jake, if he feels pretty good until he comes home from work, he could take the 8mg tonight and see how it goes through the evening. I'm just scared that if he goes through that withdrawl and has now added 8 more mg that puts him at 16 in two days, dope would be rendered useless and he would absolutely freak. What do you think? Any professionals out there that can add to this delimma? I know this way of medicating is not recommended. I know that any credible doctor would recommend going to an office, seeking professional help. Well, we did that and got burned. So I'll take any advice I can get.

Hey Jake,
One more thing. He felt the symptoms of withdrawl subside almost immediately after that second bag. Thinking maybe the Bupe was knocked out by the H??? Oh what a guessing game. I would just hate to waste the induction, as crazy as it went, if we can save it. He just can't go through that withdrawl again.

J

Nevermind, he just called and he's starting sneezing and going through withdrawl. Not being sure if it's dope withdrawl or Sub withdrawl, I can't have him take a Sub and go through precipitated withdrawl again. He has to work.
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Unread 12-15-2005, 04:58 PM   #54
Diesal
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Judy... you are just endulging him.... This is a mess... I'm sorry to say but i know when i first started to take sub I was thinking I was sicker than I really was... If he uses again the next time is only going to get harder.. I'm not trying to be a jerk i'm just telling you what I and a lot of people i know went through... It's impossible for him to be going through wd's from the sub already... there is no way... he probably still has a lot of dope in him... just take more sub but don't go over 20mg..... what he should have done was taken 8mg right off the bat in one shot! I know you said he waited but how long exactly... i didn't really check every single post that was written....
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Unread 12-15-2005, 05:47 PM   #55
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I am so so sorry to hear that. I'm done.
Jake
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Unread 12-15-2005, 05:58 PM   #56
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You know what, I'm not indulging him. That is total bulls*** and I take offense to it. The way that fricken loser doctor prescribed the Sub didn't effing work. She gave him a dose of 2 damn mg. A junkie gets at least 30mg of methodone when they start. She has a total power trip, even today when he called her. He told her exactly what happened, she went on to say that he's cancelled appointments, he's not serious, etc. etc. He should have followed her plan and came back to see her this morning. He told her that he was in severe withdrawl, and he's only cancelled one appointment, which he set her straight about that when she started on that in the office. She told him, you should have just laid in bed and then came to see me today, well hello, we have a life and responsibility, not to mention how the hell would he have gotten there unable to move. It's not like she said, okay wait two more hours, you'll feel like crap, but then take two more, then wait and take two more. She was all about here's 4mg, have a nice day see ya tomorrow. I don't have three days to wait. He explained to her about the people on the internet and then she says, oh well I think that this is the point at which we need to part ways, if you're going to listen to them when I've studied for 7 years, blah blah blah. What a total C word.

I'm pretty flexible, but don't ever call me indulgent when basically I have no choice. I can't control this monster, I didn't cause this, and I certainly don't want to deal with this anymore, but what do I do, throw him away with yesterday's garbage. Indulgent my ass. He was saying this morning that he was feeling surprisingly well considering he hadn't put a needle in his arm since 1:30pm yesterday. That's 21 hours later he's starting to sneeze, so don't tell me that he can't be in any type of withdrawl, he's lucky he lasted as long as he did. The Sub didn't work, for whatever reason, the way it was supposed to. I told this board that Tony may metabolize differently, he probably wasn't in enough withdrawl and then caused himself full blown withdrawl. It was an ill conceived plan to think that he'd be able to work, he thought, like many have said here, that he would need a couple of hours and feel good. That didn't happen because it was only 4 mg. The second 4 I gave him just didn't help.

And I don't think you're being a jerk or anything, but don't assume to know what I'm about when I've been killing myself to remedy this situation. I know I enable, but I lived it and I saw what worked and what didn't.
Judy
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Unread 12-15-2005, 06:00 PM   #57
Diesal
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Jake... i feel your pain man...

Judy... you must give him boundaries...... whether you realize it or not, he is going in circles at this point... man, i can totally relate b/c i'm still new in recovery and i was just there a little over a month ago... Unfortunately, the only reason at first why I checked into detox/rehab was b/c my fiancee told me if I didn't get my s*** together that I would be out of the house... homeless.... so at first i went just for her. However, after being there and learning a little, i knew that i had to be there for myself... If he is doing this just for you, he will never stay clean!
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Unread 12-15-2005, 06:03 PM   #58
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whatever Judy... just trying to help.... keep on giving yourself excuses.. that will make you feel better about this whole thing... later.
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Unread 12-15-2005, 06:04 PM   #59
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HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE HAVE TO TELL YOU JUDY.... YOU CANNOT REMEMDY THIS... HE HAS TO....
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Unread 12-15-2005, 06:09 PM   #60
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Judy,
The Suboxone DID work, That's why he went so long without withdrawal. I don't understand, you keep asking for advice, you don't follow it and ask again???Everything that happened to Tony is EXACTLY what would be expected. If he followed the doctors advice he would of have some pain but would have been heroin and withdrawal free today.
W
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Unread 12-15-2005, 06:43 PM   #61
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Dr. Will:

Here is what I know. Since I've been on this board, like 200 posts ago, I have been told that if Tony is in mild to moderate withdrawl, the doctor will give him the meds, monitor his progress, and as he withdrawls the doc will increase the meds to stabilize him. Within a couple of hours he'd feel like a new man. That's the story I was told by everyone. Now, he goes to a physican who "studied this drug for 7 years" and she sees him for a total of 1 hour, gives him 4 mg and sends him home. On the way home I had to stop the car so he could puke out the door. He almost crapped himself. He was sneezing uncontrolably, he was shaking, eyes watering, nose running. He was supposed to go through that until 8am this morning? That isn't what this board made us believe was going to happen. Everyone on this board since yesterday said the Doctor was a freak and did it wrong. I did give him more meds, he did wait. When he didn't feel any better he FREAKED OUT. Okay, maybe I make excuses for him, well you know what, I understand the motivation behind him having to go to work. The home we live in depends on him getting paid so we can have a home to go to. That is not an exaggeration. I ADMIT, I wanted this so badly that I figured that he could do it and go to work. I even said yesterday that this is my fault, everyone yelled at me when I said that too. Tony was saying from the very beginning that he needed to finish this job before he could do this, I kept arguing that it would only be a couple of hours out of a day, you'll feel like a new man, yada, yada.

After the events unfolded yesterday, I panicked. I didn't want him to use, he didn't want to use, he didn't know what else to do to feel good enough to go to work. I had no answers for him. The 8 mg dose didn't stabilize him to a point where he could work. Everyone on this board was incredible, you helped me, you tried to walk us through it, I'm sorry. I keep asking the same damn questions, I don't do what everyone says, I'm an enabler. I'm indulgent.

Dr. Will, if you could have gotten on here and guaranteed me that the withdrawl he was starting to feel was solely because he needed more sub and if he'd of taken another dose he would have been perfectly fine to do the job he's on, I would have done that. This homeowner is freaking out because they can't put their tree up and their kid is crying because she's the only house that doesn't have it up, we can't deal in maybe's or possibly right now. Hence my admission that I, AND ONLY ME, PUSHED THIS TOO HARD. TONY KNEW WHAT HE HAD TO DO, I DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT. I came to this forum for information and input, I still do, I respect the opinions here, but I don't think that me taking the advice and passing it on constitutes me not following advice. Anthony said it best, I can't remedy this situation, it's not me, it's not my problem to conquer, I can only take what you say and pass the info. along. When Robert told me to give Tony 4 more mg. yesterday, I went out there in the car, where he was like a fetus, and he willingly took the pills and waited, the relief just didn't come. Again today I thought maybe we could salvage that disaster of a day yesterday, but no one could GUARANTEE me that he would take the sub and be fine to work.

Tony wants to get clean, the motivation is there, I know it, he knows it. I know you don't because you're not here. He will find a doctor that will do the induction the way everyone here describes. It will be good. Those are his words, not mine.

Anyway, thanks for the help and honesty.
J
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:07 PM   #62
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Judy,
Sorry I was so abrupt. I know this is difficult.I hope you are able to find another doctor soon. Keep checking the list, there have been a lot of trainings and many doctors will be added to the list. Keep learning about the treatment, it will empower you. Have you read the dosing guild? http://naabt.org/documents/Suboxone_Dosing_Guide.pdf
W
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:14 PM   #63
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Judy, i'm sorry for being harsh and saying those things in that way. I just totally relate to what you and Tony are going through. I had tears in my eyes reading your last post b/c you sound exactly like my girlfriend. It's amazing how i went through almost the same exact thing when i tried on my own... Point being, and i'm not saying this will work for everyone... but I had to go to a detox/rehab facility.... I couldn't do this on my own.... I actually needed to hear the lectures in group while being medically supervised. I think people going to the doctor and getting this to do on their own is a mistake. I pray for you and Tony and I hope he feels better soon.
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:18 PM   #64
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It's not abrupt. It's what you know to be true. It is difficult and WE don't know what to do. Tony's hardly made a right decision in his whole sorry life. He finally does make an attempt and it goes awry. Even at his worst yesterday, he cried and asked why it wasn't working for him. I didn't have an answer. We will find a doctor, but you can bet your bottom dollar Tony will know the docs induction method before he gets there and he will not be surprised.

I know it's hard to listen to me and not want to throttle me into some sort of reality, but this is my reality. I've lived it for years and this drug was Tony's idea (even though it should have been before he stopped naltrexone) I just did the leg work at finding out about it, I found you. I hail all of you. But in all of this, Tony is not the bad guy, and he's not purposely avoiding it, he's really not. I know excuses, excuses, but sometimes the addict isn't making it up. He really truly wants this, but just doesn't know how to please everyone (clients, me, doctors). Anyway, thanks. Thanks for trying to help us out.
J

Oh my god, that doctor is a friggen quack (no offense to any Dr. here). I read the guide and it wasn't anything like that. His withdrawl wasn't even evident until we left the clinic. I had a COWS sheet and I was trying to gauge his withdrawl. I had him up to a 4 just before we went in. She didn't even look at his pupils until she was giving him the second 2mg dose. I am going to print that and show Tony. We will be prepared next time.
J
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:24 PM   #65
cnjsmom1111
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I have been reading this the past day and made a few comments. I'm reading and reading (like its a movie or someting) and got to the end and was hoping Tony had called and told you he started the SUB again and felt great. Is he planning to keep on with what he has or bail because it didnt work. I think if he was to continue right now, he would start feeling great. We're pulling for ya. It WILL work, I promise!
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:34 PM   #66
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...one more thing...The put me on 16mg the first day and it got rid of the bad physical withdrawals, but the next morning I started feeling like total crap again and felt discouraged. When I went in again that morning, the dr. gave me another 8mg and i slept there for about 2 hours and when i left I felt much better and it actually lasted and its been almost 3 weeks now and I havent had one craving, one symptom of withdrawal, nothing. I would love to see him keep trying now because if he waits and waits or feels this isn't going to work for him, he may never try again thinking this med. doesn't work on him. I remember that 2nd day I would so bummed, thinking this type of medcation wasnt going to get me out of my hell and I know I had studied and studied it and was very hopeful. I do remember before I started Sub that I was very skeptical there was some "miracle" pill out there that could make the withdrwal go away because I have tried so many times alone to detox and have failed EVERY time....but this really does work and has worked for almost everyone, so I think he will get better if he gives it another try. I can almost promise you if he starts again now, he will have the BEST Christmas of his life and so will your kiddos.
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:38 PM   #67
Phoenix
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He wasn't able to continue, but we're not abandoning the therapy. He will get back into this. We need to find a doctor who actually read the manual/dosing guide. It's a sin that she put both of us through this. We will git r dun. LOL
Lots of love to ya'll
Judy
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:50 PM   #68
cnjsmom1111
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Where are you from? I'm from Texas so was wondering about the "ya'll"! He WILL get clean from this $h!^ I promise! I thought I would NEVER be free from this demon and I am today finally. This is the first time in 10 years I have been clean for 3 weeks. I am not sure where you live, but in Houston there are Dr's that can get you in right away!
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Unread 12-15-2005, 07:57 PM   #69
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...sorry, i had another question I didn't post. Have you called any doctors people on this site could recommend. I did see your from Chicago, so maybe you could get in with a Dr. someone on this site has been too that they highly recommended. Good Luck
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Unread 12-15-2005, 09:54 PM   #70
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Hi CNJ:
I'm from Illinois, the Y'all is just something I do. Kind of like an Oy Vey. If I give up hope I might as well dig a hole. Tony is worth hanging in for. There isn't anyone on this planet that I love more than him (aside from my kids). I am going to go back on the p/d connection to see if I can't find that doctor Jake told me about. I have to go back and read all of the old posts to find it. He said he was a good Dr. he was kind of far away but no farther than that quack he went to see yesterday.

Judy
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Unread 12-15-2005, 10:47 PM   #71
dodo
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Judy,
Somewhere on yesterdays post's, I think it was Jakme that told you to give Tony more of the sub and Caroline told you to make sure he had some for this morning?? If you had done this, you'd be on your way. Not to be rude again, but here is another excuse not to get started. We all have bills to pay and yet everyone of us always found a way to do it and cop. The money needed for your mortgage needs to be there before the day it's due. I know that is easier said than done, but there's always money for the H? It's unfortunate you had a non compassionate doctor, but look at it from her point of view, he has cancelled and now he's not doing what she told him to. You could have gone to that appt. today and told her you gave him more, etc. and you'd still would have been on your way to clean BUT now another excuse. I guess I'm getting so frustrated with you because YOU are the one that seems to be feeling most of the pain, even though Tony may have been in some type of WD, he got his fix, didn't he. Someone said, stop endulging him, someone else said they are done. PLEASE try and let HIM take RESPONSIBILITY for himself. You want to protect and convince, that is only natural because he is your loved one, but after rereading every post your on one hell of a rollercoaster ride and you need to get off soon before you fall.
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Unread 12-15-2005, 11:27 PM   #72
gwen
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judy, if you're taking a hiatus, i understand. i'll be there with you in spirit. with love, gwen
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Unread 12-15-2005, 11:29 PM   #73
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Once again, I HEAR YOU. I HEAR ALL OF YOU. I know what you are saying. Tony is taking responsibility in supporting this family. I know it's twisted, I know it's twisted way of thinking, but the job is getting done, as we speak, he's busting that ceiling out. Yes he had to cop to get through the day and do the job, but once it's done, most likely tomorrow or Saturday, he won't have any excuses. He doesn't want any excuses, he just has to do what he has to do. He's let me down so many times (his words) that if he blows this job it will be another failure. Not a small failure, but a failure that can lose us our house and he'd still be a user with a really huge backlash. Right now the backlash is our misery, but he's calmed the customer and the financial security that we needed is still in tact.

At this point, I know where you all stand in your opinion. However, let's focus on the fact that he isn't giving up on Subutex/Suboxone therapy, it just has to be done right. That is the goal we're setting up for ourselves. Everyone on this board that has been addicted has been here, has been through one reason or another why it didn't go as planned and I'm sure sometimes your delay in getting help was bulls*** and sometimes it was legit. Tony has had many bulls*** reasons in the past not to do the right thing, I know I've lived it, however, let's assume that this is legit and move on. It didn't happen the way it should have. He will try again. I'm asking you to please stop reminding me that he has to take responsibility, I've been telling him this for years, I KNOW, HE KNOWS.
You all know that sometimes it's just not that easy. I understand your angst in this, you all saw the potential for great success, and it turned into a big fat zero. I'm right there with you. But I'm not going to sit back and watch Tony be ostrasized because he turned to the only thing that he knew would work to get him back to a state that permitted him to get to work. If he could have blown that job off, believe me, he would have.

If you were that customer that paid $2000 up front with a $2000 balance, would you feel good about your "employee" blowing you off 10 days before Christmas? Tony may have disappointed me and himself, but his customer is seeing progress and can feel good that the job will get done so he can put up his damn Christmas tree. He doesn't know Tony is a drug user. He doesn't feel sympathy that he was trying to get help and went into precipitated withdrawl (we're assuming) all he cares about is making his family happy. I can totally relate to that and I give Tony some respect for not f***ing that up, not for us, not for them.

So how has everyone else's day gone? Any good stories to share? Any newcomers have some success today? I'm ready for a feel good story, how about you guys. I don't want to bring you down or anger you anymore with this frustrating turn of events or me trying to explain the importance of getting this job done.

Judy
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Unread 12-15-2005, 11:36 PM   #74
dodo
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Judy,
You don't need to explain anything, I hear ya. I just wanted you to know how I fell for you, maybe it didn't come across that way. One day and hopefully soon this will all be just a bad memory. Happy days ahead to you and yours.
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Unread 12-16-2005, 12:10 AM   #75
Phoenix
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I can't take a hiatus, I'm too involved. I love you guys. You have been there and I feel strong enough to handle what you have to say without taking it personally.
Judy

Gwen:
I love you. I can't go a day without sharing something with you. I'm hanging in there. I was just feeling blue because I felt attacked but I realize that wasn't the intent. I'll hang in there.
J
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Unread 12-16-2005, 12:45 AM   #76
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I haven't been around because of some personal and work issues. Judy, a lot of people here have given you some very good advice, at least from the posts I managed to read (can't get to all)...and I couldn't say anything to improved upon them. Bottom line is that Tony needs to get back into suboxone treatment, even if he has to bite the bullet for a couple of days. It all depends on Tony and his desire to break away from his drug habit. It seems he has a lot going for him, especially with you and the children, and I hope he comes to realize he is just wasting precious time and his life with staying on heroin. I think we are all invested in the outcome of your story, yours and Tony's battle with a terrible addiction, and we all are hoping for the best for the both of you. Take care of yourself and good luck. Caroline

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Unread 12-16-2005, 12:46 AM   #77
Phoenix
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Hey Dodo:
I found the number to the Dr. Jake recommended, I'm calling tomorrow, explaining what happened and seeing when he has an available appointment.
J
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Unread 12-16-2005, 12:47 AM   #78
gwen
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judy, i think one of the reasons so many got so frustrated is that he was so close. and i think it just shows how many here were pulling for you guys.

but on another note, i got that couple to let me work in the little kiddie's treasures from christmas's past - just dressed them up a little with the 'proper' color wide ribbons and made hangings for either side of the fireplace. it came out really nice - not how i'd do my home - but for the styling they wanted. colonial christmas. lots of evergreen garland with sugared fruit, deep burgundy and forest greens. formal. but then again the house is an old colonial so it works in that manner. i generally don't do the christmas thing for others, only if it coincides with the end of a job. as for me, after the kids got a bit older and we stopped with the real tree, it took me a couple of years, but i finally found an old silver tree from the 60s, wheel light and all. my kids still laugh at me. but now they think it's the coolest thing because it's so retro.

i'd miss you too. love you. gwen
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Unread 12-16-2005, 01:30 AM   #79
cnjsmom1111
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Hey Judy,
Just wanted to say something real quick..if he were to go back tomorrow and get the correct amount probably 12-16mg. I know exactly how Tony is feeling and thinking.."THERE IS NO WAY I CAN WORK OR DO THIS JOB WHILE DETOXING"!!! I promise you, he can. I tried so many times to detox and felt like crap for days and days, so I thought the same before I went in. But, this drug is like nothing out there and he WILL be able to work and feel totally normal. I used to try and plan my detoxing around work, kid functions, baseball games, etc. and always used that excuse, but deep down, i was just scared of feeling normal and not high and didn't think there really was anything that could make me feel good, so I kept putting it off and putting it off. From the bottem of my heart, I promise you, he will feel none of that depression and horrible stuff and be so proud of himself if he does it. You will also save alot of money your forking out for more H. If you wait any longer, your not going to get in to anyone before the holidays and only 10-12 days from now, half of that $2K is gone with an $80-$100 a day habit. Stay strong and he will be so happy that he's finally clean...I think all of us will share your joy too when we get on here and read he did it.
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Unread 12-16-2005, 01:32 AM   #80
Phoenix
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I'm glad the job turned out well for ya. You sound awesome and I'd love to see some of your work.

I totally understand why people were upset. I am upset, Tony's upset, but we are not giving up. This was not his fault. For once he didn't do the wrong thing. He had to do the wrong thing to get through what was happening, but he did make an effort. He did all of the right things leading up to the major disaster. Tomorrow is another day and I'm hanging on to hope.
Judy
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Unread 12-16-2005, 01:47 AM   #81
cnjsmom1111
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Judy, and this is not to slam you at all, but he has had his medication since November and has seemed to have had a reason as to why he couldn't take it insteady of why he could. If he has had at least 24 hours down time from work, he could definately have done it. I know us as addicts are con artists and the best at rationalizing with ourselves and getting others to do it our way, so try not to push him to much and take care of you. When he wants it bad enough and is sick and tired of feeding his addiction, he will do it....and as you've learned I'm sure, dont make it easy for him to stay high. Kristen
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Unread 12-16-2005, 02:14 AM   #82
Phoenix
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Actually Kristin, he didn't physically have his meds until December 5. The doctor wasn't available until December 7th. He changed that appointment (to finish the floor) to yesterday. I couldn't do it on Monday because of a work commitment I wasn't willing to break to go. Tuesday Dr. wasn't available, so Wednesday was his appointment. He made the appointment obviously. I do not take it as a slam. Most of you are all recovering addicts and have done your fair share of "conning," so I understand the skepticism. I've been there on quite a few occasions of my own. Your perception is that of your own experience and none of you know Tony or what is in his head. You don't know his motivation, or his drive to be clean. So, it's okay. This is a man who turned himself in to jail when he could have done probation just to get clean and get on Naltrexone. It's really okay that you don't know where his heart or head are. I get it. I'm not offended, I felt that way earlier but I have rationalized addicts way of thinking and I see where it comes from. I'm cool with it. As I've said before, I enjoy the banter. All I ask is that you reserve JUDGMENT for yourselves. Words of encouragement and experience are what I'm looking for and I'm gotten much of that since the first day I posted. Without this board I wouldn't have had Robert to turn to in a time of need. I wouldn't have Gwen who helps take my mind off of things, I wouldn't have Jake and Anthony to shake things up a bit and make me question if what I believe is real or fiction. You give me clarity, I hail that.
Judy
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Unread 12-16-2005, 03:13 AM   #83
leeglegle
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My humble opinion, y'all:

A major part of the communication problem here is that Judy uses a keyboard faster than most of us. We are also not all equally available to contribute at any particular moment. Consequently, we are unable to exchange our ideas and opinions in real time.

I don't think anyone's sincerity is questionable in the slightest. Everyone who has posted wants to help. We're all invested in the well-being of Judy and Tony. There's no reason to doubt their sincerity of purpose and that of all who have joined in.

This is a positive learning experience and we are all to be congratulated.

I'm totally confident there will be a good ending here. We'll all be winners when Judy and Tony are.

Such passion by everyone!

Oy vey!

That's it.
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Unread 12-16-2005, 03:31 AM   #84
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I'm just about to sign off and head to bed. I flip the screen up to check in and Robert, you made me laugh. I mean a real hearty laugh. YOU ROCK.
Judy
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Unread 12-16-2005, 06:14 AM   #85
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Judy, I will say WE are your biggest fans and we're all behind you! Geez, you've managed to get 83 replies in a 24 hour period! Thats a record! I'm amazed at the positive and non-judgemental people I've found on here (except for maybe one and I won't mention names) and have to say they are the reason I got up and started Sub so quickly. I had only studied it for a few days and when I posted a question, got such a huge, caring response and it really gave me the courage to jump on in. Tony WILL make it, I have faith. Now if he keeps on and keeps on for months and months, we're gonna have to go kick som A$$! Night Night!
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Unread 12-16-2005, 02:16 PM   #86
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Lots of passionate people out there. Called Dr. Doot today, it seems his facility is another one of those long term programs. $14,000, five weeks, etc. etc. I did leave a message explaining the situation and asked for help in finding a doctor that will do an induction and help with maintenance. I also explained on my long winded message that Tony is not insured. Eagerly awaiting a response. I swear, between Howard Stern's last radio show and more negative news, I'm not having a good morning.
Judy
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Unread 12-16-2005, 06:39 PM   #87
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Judy, i'm sorry for your pain... This sucks i know... been there... but see this is what you should remind Tony when he thinks about picking up again.... I know i think about stuff like this when I think about using again... This friggin disease attacks us in all angles in every way possible.... It had me by the balls for the longest time.... Hang in there honey and if you need anything just email me
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Unread 12-16-2005, 07:09 PM   #88
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You know, I'm going to keep on keeping on. What am I going to do, wallow in my own misery, having my little pity party for myself, be angry? You know, I had every right to be pissed when Tony cancelled the appointment, when he stopped taking Naltrexone and went back to H, when he lied. Those are the times I was entitled to anger. Now, he made an effort, albeit an effort that was rendered useless, but not by his shortcoming. I am making more phone calls, I'm talking to more nurses in doctors offices, I'm asking more of the right questions. I know I'm doing all of the leg work, but I'm okay with that, you see then he can't bulls*** me. If he would have gone alone on Wednesday and things would have transpired as they did, I never would have believed for one minute that he was legit. I was there, I didn't miss a beat and now I know what the truth is. Doing all of this research, all of this talking to you guys, all of the phone calls, gives me a bit of control that we all know I can't have in any other aspect of this illness. I am not happy that he's not in the process of healing, but in a way this has brought us closer because we're working together. You know, I was talking to a nurse today and I explained what happened. She was kind of shocked. I am going to get on a three way call with Tony and the Dr. office and see if they would allow Tony to do the induction at home over the weekend and go into his office to measure stabilization on Monday. I think if Tony stopped using Today, started detox at home, got into really good COWS scale moderate withdrawl (like a 24), took 4mg and then waited 20-40 minutes and see if he had any relief. Then just closely monitored him for 1-2 hours, give him another 4mg and see what happens. If he needed more, give a third dose of 2-4 mg and see how he stabilizes, if the Doctor would accept him as a patient. I mean technically, Tony is still under the care of Dr. Shrew. It's her signature on the script, I can't imagine why it would be a problem.

I just don't want to go through something like this "self-medicating" without having a doctor to continue the script. I know we could do this, in the comfort of our own home and be successful with your help. He has enough Sub left (20mg) to get through the weekend and come out on top, it's just after that what do I do?

Do you think it's a bad idea? You all have been really brutally honest at times, now is the time to tell me. Either it's a good plan or it's really a dumb idea!!!
Judy
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Unread 12-16-2005, 07:35 PM   #89
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Judy, Is it a different doctor? If they allow that, I think you might be better off doing it on Sunday to make sure you have enough Sub in case he needs more than 12. Because as Caroline posted he'd need 8 for the next day. When do you talk to the doctor? - Mary
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Unread 12-16-2005, 11:49 PM   #90
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Yes, Tony and I are both talking to different doctors. The nurse at the $14,000 office called me back and seemed very concerned and helpful. She's going to talk to Dr. Doot and see if perhaps there is an exception to the rule because of the trauma we've been through. Another Doctor said that what happened was a travesty and she scheduled Tony for an intake on Monday at 5:30pm. She too seemed very concerned and sympathetic to what is happening here. So, now it's just a wait and see game. They both said the Doctor Tony went too was way off on her technique and he should have been further in withdrawl, in fact, both of the new offices said that Dr. Quack should have done a better job determining his state of WD. He indeed did put himself into precipitated withdrawl and the fact that she had no backup plan to ease him thru it was totally irresponsible and wrong. If she intended to send him home after the 4mgs, she should have given him a dosage to do at home to stave off the withdrawl as in the dosing guide. They were both also really impressed at the level of knowledge I had regarding the process. When I started telling her that I was the one using the COWS in the general waiting area to measure his WD, they were practically speechless. I credited all of my knowledge to this site and the people on it. I'm not going to get all gung ho hopeful again because that leads to disappointment, but after talking to both of those Doctors offices I feel that they know what needs to happen and how to get it done. Hope springs eternal.
Judy

Oh yeah, I didn't actually talk to a doctor, just nurses, so I didn't broach the subject of him self inducing. It would be so great to finally get it done tho. I'm trying to scale back my eagerness because it's not me doing it and he has to be as eager as I.
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Unread 12-17-2005, 12:14 AM   #91
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hey judy! looks like today was hopeful day. finally, some caring people. good! anything fun up for the weekend? i like that 'Dr. Quack' made me laugh, which sent me into a coughing fit! i've been a bit under the weather today. just generally feeling like a big old cold coming in. hopefully i'll get it in check before it's out of control! love ya, gwen
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Unread 12-17-2005, 12:21 AM   #92
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Gwen,
Hurry up and get some cold eeze. You don't want to be sick at Christmas. I'm at Krissie's house right now, we just ate pizza and are bulls***ting. It's nice. Tony is FINISHING the ceiling tonight. He got all three coats of mud on the drywall, was waiting for it to dry and was just about to sand when I spoke to him about an hour ago. It was not so hopeful this morning when I called Dr. Doot and found out about the 14 Grand. But I spent as much time as I could calling around to doctors at school today and hit one closer to my house. That's the one he's meeting on Monday. It's just like an intake visit, but it's still progress (and before Christmas). Don't know if he'll get induced before Christmas but at least it's a start. I'm glad I could make you laugh, you've been there for me.
Lots of love,
Judy
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Unread 12-17-2005, 07:52 PM   #93
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Hi all,
I just got a call from Dr. Doot's office (the $14,000 man), they called to tell me that when the doctor heard Tony's experience he was willing to take him on as a patient. He won't be required to be a part of the 5 week, $14,000 treatment. Currently that appointment is for Thursday. Tony is going to keep the appointment on Monday and talk to the Doctor about how the process will go exactly. If it's not what has been taught to us, he will simply thank the Doc and meet the new one. I really can't believe that Dr. Doot, he is an amazing guy willing to take Tony off of his normal protocol, without insurance, etc. etc. I think that rushing to find any old doctor that had an available appointment was a big mistake. Now, even though I hate to wait, Tony and I, as a team, can talk to these Physicans and have them educate us, find out if it will work for Tony, and make an educated decision.

IN ADDITION, TONY TOOK TWO DAYS OFF OF WORK THIS WEEK. HE FINISHED THE CEILING LAST NIGHT, HAS A FEW ODDS AND ENDS TO DO THERE TODAY, AND HE WILL BE COMPLETELY DONE. (at least with that phase of the job, they hired him to fix the daughters bedroom after the gas leak) THE NEW JOB HE WAS WORKING ON,(STARTED LAST WEEK, WORKED NIGHTS) IS A GOOD PAYING JOB THAT HE IS TAKING TWO DAYS OFF OF JUST IN CASE HE NEEDS IT AFTER INDUCTION. So, he has really two jobs, still this same house he's been at, and another job working on a house that had a fire. He is taking two days off of both jobs, to do this. I told him he probably won't need two days, he says "just in case."

So now, in the event that he goes into that same type of withdrawl, which he won't because I'm going to make sure he's good and sick before we get there, he can veg in his bed and not worry about being late or absent from work. I have a feeling that these doctors will know what to do. I think they will actually measure his withdrawl and make an educated decision whether or not he's ready for his first dose or if he needs more time to withdrawl and empty some receptor sites. I think they will take the time to monitor his progress, or lack thereof and guide him toward a healthy lifestyle.
Looking toward the future.
Judy
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Unread 12-18-2005, 01:05 PM   #94
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hey judy, glad you had a good night with krissie, and wow! that's great news about dr. doot and the monday appointment! i like the topic name change too. i spent most of the day yesterday either in bed or on the couch. oh i hate doing that, but i'm feeling much better today.

i am so happy for you guys. looks like 2 good choices. and you two working as a team - that's the most important. and taking 2 days off. i'm very proud of him for doing that. just in case! give him a big old hug for me. and you 'sound' hopeful and determined and right on track! finally a solid plan with no Dr. Quack or Dr. Shrew! wee hoo! love ya both! gwen
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Unread 12-18-2005, 02:14 PM   #95
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Hey Gwen:
Sorry to hear you were out of comission, but I'm glad you were able to recoup before Christmas. I am hopeful. The way those nurses related to me, called me back, they seemed genuinely interested in recovery and not just telling Tony what to do. We'll see how it goes tomorrow, keeping my fingers crossed. Hugs to you.
Judy
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Unread 12-19-2005, 11:48 AM   #96
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hey lady, hope you had a wonderful sunday. i had to do all the crap i didn't do while i was sick saturday. plus do a 'hit and run' at a christmas party. 'hi happy holidays blah blah blah .... oh look at the time! kurt, don't we have to be at dave's house soon?...' which we did, a friend of ours, much better place than the stuffy party... in any event, one appointment today. good! who is closer? dr. doot? (i have to tell you, i love that name!) or dr. 5:00 today? have a great day!! love ya! gwen

oh! did you see estaban's post under 'looking for all suboxone users"? check it out!
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Unread 12-19-2005, 12:54 PM   #97
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G'day Judy:

I, too, like the name change on your topic. It reflects your guts and determination.

I'm loking forward to next Sunday, your family's first clean Christmas in years. No matter how great you think it's going to be, it will be even better.

Just spoke by phone w/ Estaban, whose story is similar to mine. He's another miracle story of a formerly hopeless addict now on sub maintenance, and is now the happiest and most contented he's ever been. Like all of us, he's got a great story to tell.

I can't wait until Tony's story is written and your lives become "normal". My experience was that I had to relearn "normal". I'd forgotten whay "normal" was. Well, "normal's GREAT".

Y'all will find "normal". I know you will. I'm totally 100% confident that sub will work for Tony once he's properly inducted. It's hard for me to think of anything else about which I can say I'm 100% confident. I'm just not aware of any failures when the patient has been appropriately treated with sub.

To jump around a bit, TIM's post yesterday about the language of addiction is hugely important.

The doc you used last week is mired in the old way of thinking and communicating. The language you told us she used in discussing Tony's induction revealed, as much as her behavior, that she was stereotyping Tony and refusing to treat him as the indiviual he is.

He presented to her w/ his own unique background, physical characteristics and preparation for treatment. She treated him as less than human, like a barnyard animal.

But, I digress. My confidence for you this week derives from the incredible amount of research you've done. You're cloaked with more knowledge than many professionals and knowledge is power. I admire you both greatly.

Thinking of you!

Good luck,
Robert
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Unread 12-19-2005, 01:50 PM   #98
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Robert:

I couldn't agree with you more. I read Tim's post regarding language, and I am guilty of using all of the wrong terms. Mostly in anger, but nonetheless, my way of thinking about this disease has been changed dramatically since I've been here.

As for Tony, NORMAL is a road we would like to explore together. We don't expect Subutex/Suboxone to make everything wonderful, we simply expect it to be a tool he can use to stay off of H while he explores what makes him choose the wrong path. A tool that will give him the opportunity to feel human while understanding his life. I know Tony has the intention of going to see a counselor.

LET THE HEALING BEGIN!!!
Lots of love,
Judy
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Unread 12-19-2005, 03:00 PM   #99
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PURPLE:
DON'T APOLOGIZE, YOU CAN POST ANYTHING ANYWHERE YOU WANT. It's cool.

Judy
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Unread 12-19-2005, 03:32 PM   #100
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judy, how far is today's doctor from you guys? keeping you guys in my thoughts. love ya, gwen
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