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Unread 06-22-2009, 12:36 AM   #1
chefron09
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Default So tired of some peoples negativity

Well, I have officially removed my account with med-help.org's website. For the last time when trying to help someone by telling my story I have been bashed and made to feel like an idiot and not truly in recovery for being on suboxone. Has anyone else had this negative jive from others. It really hurts, I am damn proud of the fact that I am clean and just tired of being insulted for being on Sub, thanks just needed to vent

==Ron
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Unread 06-22-2009, 01:42 AM   #2
toboat777
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Hello Ron

I have not had this happen i only come here for support but I'm sorry to here this as i will not be going there thanks for the warning.

I have never had one negative experience here at NAABT May I personally welcome you here come and stay awhile

Tony.......... ToBoat777
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Unread 06-22-2009, 02:49 AM   #3
broker70
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understand i was on the medhelp site before i quit and went on sub. they made me feel bad ,i told one person a story about mysicess off lortab and 12 resopnse on how iam a worse person than them ,well to hell with them ive been clean 36 days with the site
longest over there was 3
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Unread 06-22-2009, 02:16 PM   #4
theswan
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Easy does it

Recovery by nature is full of sick people. Some are sicker then others and the "sickness" does not just stop when a drink/drug is put down. there are great poeple here who do not judge and I for one need that. I judge myself the harshest and do not need to be put down.

A fact is that some feel better about themselves if they see a defect in others. I must admit this myself. Who does not want to feel a litle superior to others? This is not uncommon but we must put that though inside and not give voice to it. Those that due because they feel superior because they do not use suboxone are in there own skins not at ease.

Welcome here and stick with the positive. Suboxone is an aid or tool and has it's place

Glen
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Unread 06-23-2009, 08:23 PM   #5
toboat777
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Glen & Broker 70

Hello Glen you said it perfectly i believe this is one of your best post i have read.

How are you my freind i hope you are feeling well and doing well up in your new location sorry i have not posted in a while as i have been busy finishing a project I will be back to say hello soon.

"Ron " ...Glen hit it on the head thats all i can say !

Tony
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Unread 06-24-2009, 03:17 PM   #6
chefron09
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Thanks guys for your kind words. I never looked at it that way and now i almost feel sorry for those people who insulted me. It just kinda hurt when i thought i was doiong something good by trying to give someone a suggestion on what is working for me and i get BLASTED by all these higher than mighty people. It seems like this site is very accepting and i will def continue to use it. thanks again for your support guys.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 03:34 PM   #7
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Default Black-and-white thinking is pathological thinking

Hi, Ron,

I have had this experience off and on in NA, although I've also had folks in NA approach me privately to ask for information regarding Suboxone because they are having such a hard time quitting cold turkey.

It is true that Suboxone is an opiate, but what keeps a lot of people sick, and what is an original symptom of our sickness, is BLACK-AND-WHITE THINKING.

A lot of sick people think that just because you take a Sudafed or use mouthwash, you are going to go buy needles and dope and die with a needle sticking out of your arm that very same week.

This black-and-white thinking is what got us hooked in the first place. If we weren't perfect, we were disgusting. If we weren't the smartest, we were idiots. If we weren't flawless, we were flawed. You probably get the idea.

Suboxone upsets black-and-white thinkers because it is not EITHER/OR. It is HEALING through patience, time and endurance. It is long-term, incremental boosts of positivity that actually treat the nature of addiction.

Why?

Because we have to LISTEN TO OUR BODIES and DO WHAT IS BEST FOR US and GIVE UP CONTROL to get better! In order to successfully wean off of Suboxone, we need to treat the very nature of addiction itself: black-and-white, all-or-nothing, Control Freak Central behavior.

This upsets a lot of people because they themselves have not mastered this facet of life. They therefore, in their controlling ways, try to control US and make US bend to THEIR WILL, because we threaten the very foundation upon which they stand.

Black-and-white thinkers are very prone to falling in line with cults and anyone who tells them what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. They are threatened by anything that does not involve strict control and obvious guidelines.

Suboxone is very threatening to these people, who are very sick in the mind. So, just don't be surprised that they freak out big time when you bring it up.

To them, it's a matter of psychological survival. It's like, we are taking the WORLD AS THEY KNOW IT away from them and challenging everything that they believe to be right and good.

Honestly, it is this dramatic. That's why they get so upset!

For some, it is obviously about being insecure and having a low self-esteem, and needing to feel better than others. This is normal.

But for many, the need to exert control over us is even more pathological than that. It's an actual black-and-white, cultism mindset.

The only way to overcome addiction is to treat the nature of addiction itself: black-and-white thinking.

This is very difficult, and many people cannot master it. That's why they have to make their black-and-white thinking work FOR them, rather than against them.

For many, this is the best that they can do.

Luckily, this is not true for EVERYONE.

Keep up the great work and keep your chin up!!!

Sugar xo
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Unread 06-29-2009, 02:17 PM   #8
mariaP
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This is my 3rd week on suboxone. I have been trying to stay clean off heroin and with the help of suboxone I have managed. I have been trying to go to as many NA meetings as I can but I've noticed that they don't support me with the suboxone. So I just keep my mouth shut and in my eyes I am sober so thats all that matters
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Unread 06-29-2009, 02:24 PM   #9
theswan
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There is no crime in keeping one's mouth shut

Like in the army "don't ask dont tell" it is nobodies business period!

glen
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Unread 06-30-2009, 09:42 AM   #10
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This almost makes me want to go to this site to educate others on the medical ramifications of Suboxone therapy. This is a medical treatment we are seeking to become healthy and a tool to overcome addiction.

Do not let others let you feel like a failure because you have chosen another path than they have. If you did not want to seek help/treatment, then you would not have taken the step to contact a doctor, go through W/D's to start the medication, attend multiple doctor's appts, seek therapy, go to groups and any other steps you may have taken. Yes, you have done a lot for yourself to get here and be damn proud of yourself!! I am. My godfather is a doctor and he tells me constantly how proud he is of me. The medical profession sees this as a legitimate treatment and that is all the justification I need (actually, all the justification I need is to see my children every morning when I wake up, alive, since my painkiller/opiate overdose).

Hang in there and I hope for your continued success in your treatment.

-Christy
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Unread 08-08-2009, 09:19 PM   #11
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Thank you SO much, Sugar~~~an excellent explanation. It alone made me feel so much better at a time when I really felt pretty bad. Predestination?---I believe it!
God's blessings, Joan
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Unread 08-08-2009, 09:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaP View Post
This is my 3rd week on suboxone. I have been trying to stay clean off heroin and with the help of suboxone I have managed. I have been trying to go to as many NA meetings as I can but I've noticed that they don't support me with the suboxone. So I just keep my mouth shut and in my eyes I am sober so thats all that matters
mariaP, this is exactly what has held me back from going to N.A. regularly. A very nice woman who is on the resource board of my local N.A. admitted that, yes, there are 12-steppers who resent those of us who are on Suboxone. She also said, "So what? Just come to the meeting. You are in recovery and that's ALL that matters!". Your post was a pat-on-the-back and I thank you for it. Blessings always, Joan
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Unread 08-08-2009, 09:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chefron09 View Post
Well, I have officially removed my account with med-help.org's website. For the last time when trying to help someone by telling my story I have been bashed and made to feel like an idiot and not truly in recovery for being on suboxone. Has anyone else had this negative jive from others. It really hurts, I am damn proud of the fact that I am clean and just tired of being insulted for being on Sub, thanks just needed to vent

==Ron
I did the exact same thing as you did, Ron---couldn't take the "at least I'm not on Suboxone, like you are" mentality of many of the med-help folks. In my case, it seemed mostly as if it were implied---however, it wasn't hard to read between THOSE lines, believe me. This angered me b/c we're all warriors in this fight for our sobriety, so why the trash-talk!?!

I am ever so thankful that I found this wonderful "club house" in which to hang out. Thanks so much for the straight talk and feeling of equality! God's blessings, Joan
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Unread 08-08-2009, 10:09 PM   #14
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One thing that is SO great about the clinic I go to is that we have a monthly group (moderated/facilitated by two of the counselors) - but still self directed by the clients/patients (us!). It is a GODSEND since we are ALL on sub. We are ALL still encouraged strongly to still go to AA or NA meetings but people don't seem to like them perhaps for the reasons you all mention, like you're not really clean.

People seem to find AA less judgmental vs. NA. Or "take what you need and leave the rest" as they say!

Our group also decided to get together on our own between the monthly group times.

I am tapering off soon, and I will miss the group more than anything in the world. Will still go to "our" coffee shop group in between meetings at the clinic. A least I will have some very close friends who have some understanding.

Perhaps suggest or start, a "sub user" group in your community or thru your doctor's office. It has all been invaluable for me but it's time to get of the sub and move on now but I'll sure miss the people in my dearly beloved sub group, unless they let me come for free as a "success story......

Sue
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Unread 08-09-2009, 09:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emptynester View Post
One thing that is SO great about the clinic I go to is that we have a monthly group (moderated/facilitated by two of the counselors) - but still self directed by the clients/patients (us!). It is a GODSEND since we are ALL on sub. We are ALL still encouraged strongly to still go to AA or NA meetings but people don't seem to like them perhaps for the reasons you all mention, like you're not really clean.

People seem to find AA less judgmental vs. NA. Or "take what you need and leave the rest" as they say!

Our group also decided to get together on our own between the monthly group times.

I am tapering off soon, and I will miss the group more than anything in the world. Will still go to "our" coffee shop group in between meetings at the clinic. A least I will have some very close friends who have some understanding.

Perhaps suggest or start, a "sub user" group in your community or thru your doctor's office. It has all been invaluable for me but it's time to get of the sub and move on now but I'll sure miss the people in my dearly beloved sub group, unless they let me come for free as a "success story......

Sue
That would be awesome, Sue! A group of Suboxone Soldiers, all aiming for the same destination. Fabulous idea. I'll have to ask my MD when I see him in a few weeks; maybe he even knows of such a group, though I'd think he would have told me so. But....I'll ask anyhow. If nothing else, I'm tenacious as all get-out! God's blessings, Joan
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Unread 08-11-2009, 03:19 AM   #16
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Some people just refuse to see addiction as a medical problem, just a phsyc one.

If a long time cigarette smoker gets asthma because of smoking, and he has to take medicine to treat that asthma perhaps for a while, or perhaps for the rest of his life, do people say "you shouldn't take medicine, you did it to yourself by smoking"?

Addiction affects the brain. Some people are immune to it. Those that aren't may need medicine to treat it. A great number here were prescribed their 1st taste by a doctor, with no test in place to see if we'd become addicted or not. prescribed medicines that doctors know have a high % of people that do become addicted.
Drug companies never have a report for doctor's saying that 20% of the people that try this medicine will become addicted... 2 out of every 10 of the people you prescribe this to.
I;m not blaming them, but... only an idiot would outright judge something they don't understand.
We're not getting high anymore. We've actually sought help. If it wasn't for Suboxone, I'd still be doing whatever it took to chase the high. which were really bad things.
Let them judge. No amount of education will help a true idiot.
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Unread 08-11-2009, 05:41 AM   #17
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When dealing with any peer support..the number one thing to remember is that is is YOUR program..NOT THEIRS..we are all individuals and what woks for one may NOT work for others...no one has to divulge their program to anyone else unless they wish too....who cares what others think? Is it working for you? that is all that matters!
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Unread 08-11-2009, 09:23 AM   #18
toboat777
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When dealing with any peer support..the number one thing to remember is that is is YOUR program..NOT THEIRS..we are all individuals and what woks for one may NOT work for others...no one has to divulge their program to anyone else unless they wish too....who cares what others think? Is it working for you? that is all that matters!
So well put Bmaru i totally agree many have come here to get away from all the bashing i believe when we are in recovery no matter how you do it one should never down a person for helping them selfs get better, support is such an important part of ones recovery we are all in the same boat !

Tony .... To Boat 777
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Unread 08-12-2009, 08:15 AM   #19
MicheleJ
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Twelve step meetings, particularly AA, is not for me. There are several reasons why I feel that way, but I won't go in to that now.

Anyway, I think that those groups are "cultlike", and people don't think for themselves. (Actually, they are told that thinking for themselves is bad, and what got them there in the first place). They just listen to what they are told and what they hear repeated over and over. They are brainwashed.

I too agree that it is absolutely ridiculous that it is forbidden to use mouthwash, or certain medicines, etc........... But, many people don't think for themselves because in those meetings they scare people about thinking for themselves.

I have heard it for myself. If people don't agree with what is in the Big Book, they are told that they are going to relapse and die for "not listeneing" and trying to "do things their own way" and "not following directions".

I believe that type of thinking may actually CAUSE people to relapse because they may feel they are doomed to relapse anyway because they don't agree with everything they hear.

Anyway, in my opinion, people in AA and NA are just jealous that we have Suboxone to help us with recovery. And, if they aren't jealous, they obviously aren't educated about what Suboxone is. They are going by the rules of a book that was written in the 1940's (I think it was the 40's).

NA just adopted the Big Book, because they too, (drug addicts, not sole alcoholics) are often also not welcome at AA meetings, or they have to "keep their mouth shut" too, (whether they are on Sub. or not).

I think it is really a shame, and I actually feel sorry for the many people in NA who could have a much better recovery if they had the tool of Suboxone. But, they are just afraid of relapsing if they go against what they "learned".

That is not to say that I don't think AA and NA are very useful and good for many people though. Obviously there are many people who are helped. And, I also think there are some useful tools that I learned from AA. But, overall, it is just not for me.

Last edited by MicheleJ; 08-12-2009 at 08:22 AM..
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Unread 08-25-2009, 10:17 AM   #20
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Mom....I can't agree more with you....However, sometimes I do feel that if I'm taking Suboxone, I'm still actively addicted to opiates....But then I think, wait, I'm not stealing for them, I'm not draining my savings, I'm not waking every morning
obsessing with how do I get an oxy today, etc. And most of all, like you said,
I'm alive, and able to be the husband and father my wife and two wonderful
children deserve. Nobody.....NA, med-help.org, the milkman, etc. can possibly
tell me this is a "bad thing"!! If someone can do what I've done without suboxone,
God bless them, I'm happy for them and their family...But, I'm pretty sure, that I
have an "Atta Boy!" coming, as well. One quick analogy..... I wouldn't think any differently of two obese people that lost 100lbs., and got back in shape, one simply with exercise, the other with dexatrim, or something like that. They both recognized a life-threatening major health issue and did something about it.
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Unread 08-28-2009, 01:49 AM   #21
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A long time ago I belonged to a forum who was totally against suboxone....this may be the one you are talking about. Everything that was said against suboxone I have totally not experienced....I was put down for even wanting to go on suboxone but literally I could not have quit without suboxones help...I thank god that suboxone was here to help me through!!
I had to quit going to that negative site and just basically stayed within my own recovery group where I live. I have known and met lots of people on suboxone and it works very well for everyone that I have met....I have yet to meet someone who has had serious problems with it...and I have been in recovery for 4+ years. I am not advocating suboxone for everyone.....as to each their own in their own method of becoming clean and sober..whatever way someone can get there...is great.
I have never in person been put down because of my taking suboxone. Of course in my AA group that I go to I don't mention it...only my sponsor knows and she is very supportive. Some people are of the mind-set that any medication like that is not truly following the steps..I disagree and to each their own. There are some other suboxone users in that group as well....(I don't go to NA as I like AA better for myself)
We are clean now because of the help of suboxone...it is for addicts just as anti-depressants are for people with depression, just as insulin is for people with diabetes...etc etc. It may not be for everyone but it sure has turned my life around for the better! :-)
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Unread 08-28-2009, 02:01 AM   #22
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Michelle,
I do agree with you about the NA/AA groups somewhat...I HAD to go as part of my recovery program...I went kicking and screaming...My program lasts a little over 5 years until I am done and frankly I hated NA as the entire scene there just wasn't for me....not that it does not help others...NA was not for me...I found more comfort at the AA meetings...again I HAVE to go...so I might as well choose the lesser of the two evils. There are more people my age at the AA meetings...and there seems to be more support there that I found.
I take from it what is good for me and leave the rest. I have to for my own sanity. I do not like "group think" in otherwords a group thinking for myself. I like my own individuality and my own thoughts...granted my thoughts needed a little help which is why I take what I want and leave the rest and go thru the motions with the rest. I have ONLY told my sponsor about my suboxone but I have heard other members speak of it in meetings...usually with little feedback. We have a good group and no one there discriminates regarding their previous drug of choice. But most do not know about suboxone to really give any feedback.
I do have another privately paid for group meeting that I go to thru my counselor and I LOVE that group....you can speak freely..there is no cult like beginning with the same old verses and hallelugias (sp) and having to preface every spoken word with I'm so and so and I am an addict before speaking...which really turned me off. It took me over a year to finally comply with going to AA and I was hit with an ultimatum...either go or face the consequences which I thought was totally not fair...but I finally complied and well here I am...with a year and two months to go....yeah!!!
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Unread 08-28-2009, 07:56 AM   #23
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Hi suboxgirl,

Although I don't like AA and it's not for me, I have to say, at one time I did go, and I did learn some useful things there.
I learned that it's good try to stay in "today". I'm often not very good at that, but at least when I am worrying about something that I can't fix immediately, it enters into my mind to try to just "stay in today". Also, when I am upset or angry with someone or something, I find it useful to really think about the situation, and determine what role I played, and how much I had to do with the situation. I use that "tool" automatically. Those are things I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a few more things that I learned that I found useful, just can't think of them at the moment.
There was a time I "had" to go to AA too. During that time I embraced it, went out and got all of the AA literature, and learned everything I could about it, and really gave it an honest try. But, from what I said above, the negative outweighed the positive for me in the end.
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Unread 08-28-2009, 10:28 AM   #24
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See I prefer NA rather than AA......The Topics hit much closer to home...Also, many people I've met in AA have this illusion that they are in a higher class of addicts than those in NA.....Like being addicted to opiates, crack, cocaine, etc. is the drug of choice for the 'real criminals' but, alcoholism is somewhat socially acceptable. In other words, they think they are better than us. So many times, In AA meetings, I've heard "I'm just addicted to alcohol, not drugs or the hard stuff" as if to clarify that they don't have a "real" problem. Almost a degree of denial and the last thing I need in a 12 step meeting is a bunch of addicts that think they are justified in looking down on me. Have you run across anything like this?
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Unread 08-28-2009, 08:59 PM   #25
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I personally have not experienced people in AA "looking down on drug addicts", however, it wouldn't surprise me at all that that occurs. I have, however, experienced people in AA looking down on me, (not only me, but others also) in my opinion, because they believed that I "wouldn't make it", the people with a lot of years, and especially the "old timers". Always telling me how they "see so many people come and go", and that "you have to do the work" and that if I didn't go to a meeting every day of the week that I was doomed to a miserable life of active alcoholism, and that things will get so much worse. For example, this really pushy AA woman who had about 17 years convinced me that it would be good to make coffee on Saturday mornings, to do some "service work". So, I did this for about two months, and I hated every minute of it. I used to at least not mind going to the meetings on Saturday mornings, and sometimes even looked forward to it, but making coffee I hated. All of the old timers would always get there early and ask me how I am doing, and telling me that I should go to more meetings, work my steps, etc... They asked me a million questions. And, if when they asked me how I was I said "fine" or that I was "doing well", I was accused of not telling the truth! They drove me nuts and really got on my nerves, and made me feel uncomfortable. Not to mention, I was working full time during the week at the time and I didn't like being committed to having to get up early every Saturday morning to make coffee. That was my day to sleep in. (I used to like to sleep late back then). Whenever I mentioned it to that woman (who was the group secretary or something), she gave me dirty looks and attitude. Eventually, just to get her off my back I had to tell her that my work schedule changed and that I would be working some Saturdays and that I could no longer commit to making coffee. Well, after that they made me feel that I was completely doomed. If I didn't do the service work , I wasn't listenting to what I was told, and therefore would surely relapse. If I didn't go to meetings every day, that too would cause me to relapse. Eventually I stopped going to that group and AA altogether. I found the people to be pushy and yes, like they "looked down" on me. It's just not for me, all the rituals and slogans, and steps and "higher Power" stuff. Not for me at all!!

The only time I went to NA was when I was in re-hab (for alcohol) and at that time I didn't relate to anyone there because at that time the only thing I was and had ever been addicted to was alcohol. And, after my negative experience with AA and my non-belief in the entire 12 step program in general, since I have been on Suboxone I have not gone to NA, nor do I ever plan on it.

I do think that I am doing okay right now, but, I wouldn't mind going to a group meeting that is not based on 12 steps. If there was a group of people on Suboxone treatment, I would be there in a minute.

Maybe there are things I should be working on, I am just not sure what they are. What is the purpose of therapy if everything is going well? Like I said, I have a good job that I've been at for almost five years now, stable home, great relationships with my family, financially secure I really don't have any pressing problems now that the Vicodin is out of my life. I feel that as long as I have Suboxone to stop cravings for Vicodin and help with my depression, anxiety and insomnia that I will be okay. I truly don't know what I would need to address at therapy, or what I would talk about. I have been feeling lately though that I am not doing things correctly, that I am not making any changes and I know people are supposed to make changes while on Suboxone. I honestly am unsure and uncertain about this and what changes I should be making.
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