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Unread 06-17-2008, 02:00 AM   #1
Mr. T
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Default My testosterone test results

I am typing this from the actual lab report.

----------------- ----------- ------------ -------------------
Result Name Normal Abnormal Reference Range
----------------- ----------- ------------ -------------------
Testosterone, Serum
Testosterone, Serum 252 241 - 827 ng/dL

------- This didn't come out right.
My results were 252 and the scale is 241-827ng/dL

Lab
-------
01
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks to me I am on the low side of the normal range of testosterone serum levels. My doctor had the nerve to tell me there is nothing to worry about. I called my suboxone doctor and he said it is on the low side.
I am devastated, but ok at the same time. I have decided to once and for all taper to 2mg and stay there for a while. Once I get to 2mg I will draw more blood and test my levels again. And the honest to God truth is my libido has been effected by suboxone, I can't deny that anymore; it is the absolute truth. My libido is still active, but it is by no means what it was when I was opiate free, or even when I tapered my suboxone in the past. I have tried to taper twice so far in the past ten months of my suboxone treatment. The first time I tried I was only on suboxone for two months and when I got to 2mg, I had some nasty cravings, and somehow ended up back on 8mg. My second taper attempt if you remember was a month or two ago. I started it, but I was tapering way way to slow and it just eventually fell apart. I was actually attempting to taper 1mg a month; what the hell was I thinking. I am going to taper as fast as I can; I already as of today dropped to 6mg and I plan to drop 2mg a week with the option of taking 2mg additionally as needed; I am not going to f*** around anymore. I took my 4mg half in the morning and right after I got my test results I melted the other 2mg instead of the whole other 4mg half; my 'old dose' was 8mg. I mean f'in business, I am going to taper for real this time.
I know I will be happier at a lower dose and so will my penis, but what I don't understand is why it is so hard to taper this drug? It doesn't give me a high that I want to chase, but I think I just became to comfortable in this suboxone 'bubble' I have been trapped in. I have come so far in my recovery and I just need to burst that bubble I have been floating in and just take a small dose till I am ready to end my treatment. If I decide to stay on suboxone indefinitely, I will try to keep it between 1mg and 2mg.
What does everybody think of my testosterone test results?
The fist time I tapered I noticed my libido increased dramatically every 2mg I dropped. Maybe less is more with suboxone. I am not sure what effect bupe has on testosterone in low doses, but I am sure it can't be as bad as 8mg or above. According to Dr. Gracer 1mg is enough bupe to feel good. Also, he says tapering is a part of advancing in our treatments, and if we don't taper we can't heal. Tapering is a part of healing. If we stay on the same dose we may heal the psychological aspects, but what about the neurological and physical aspects of this addiction?
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Unread 06-17-2008, 02:22 AM   #2
josie
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Mr. T, some men just have a higher level than others. Your level is within the normal range. From what I understand you have to have higher levels of testosterone to express the baldness gene; so at least you don't have to worry about that! I had posted the following a long time ago and thought that it might be of some interest to you:


josie
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 15:29:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will give some insight:

Bliesener N; Albrecht S; Schwager A; Weckbecker K; Lichtermann D; Klingmuller D. Plasma testosterone and sexual function in men receiving buprenorphine maintenance for opioid dependence. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 90(1): 203-206, 2005. (15 refs.)
High-dose methadone is well known to cause testosterone deficiency and sexual dysfunction in opioid-dependent men. Buprenorphine is a new drug for the pharmacotherapy of opioid dependence. Its influence on the gonadal axis has not been investigated to date. We therefore assayed testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, SHBG, LH, FSH, and prolactin in 17 men treated with buprenorphine. Thirty-seven men treated with high-dose methadone and 51 healthy blood donors served as controls. Sexual function and depression were assessed using a self-rating sexual function questionnaire and the Beck Depression Inventory. Patients treated with buprenorphine had a significantly higher testosterone level [5.1 +/- 1.2 ng/ml (17.7 +/- 4.2 nmol/liter) vs. 2.8 +/- 1.2 ng/ ml (9.7 +/- 4.2 nmol/liter); P < 0.0001] and a significantly lower frequency of sexual dysfunction (P < 0.0001) compared with patients treated with methadone. The testosterone level of buprenorphine-treated patients did not differ from that of healthy controls. In conclusion, we demonstrated for the first time that buprenorphine, in contrast with high-dose methadone, seems not to suppress plasma testosterone in heroin-addicted men. To this effect, buprenorphine was less frequently related to sexual side effects. Buprenorphine might therefore be favored in the treatment of opioid dependence to prevent patients from the clinical consequences of methadone-induced hypogonadism.
Copyright 2005, Endocrine Society

I found this information here:
http://www.projectcork.org/bibliogra...enorphine.html

~josie


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Unread 06-17-2008, 02:27 AM   #3
Mr. T
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Thank josie. I read those before as well. I just don't get how it can be so low. I am 23. It said that 300 is normal for a 65 year old. How can mine be 252ng/dL. My libido is way better than a 65 year old. I just don't get it.
Do you think I should get another test?
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Unread 06-17-2008, 02:34 AM   #4
Madison7
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Have you researched DHEA?

You asked:

"What does everybody think of my testosterone test results?"

Based on the numbers, I'd say its somewhat low. A lot of sources say 300 is the lower limit of normal. A lot of opiates cause lowered testosterone. From what I have read, the problem arises in the hypothalamus, the same area of the brain that is responsible for endorphin production. Interesting.
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Unread 06-17-2008, 03:07 AM   #5
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

Have you researched DHEA?

You asked:

"What does everybody think of my testosterone test results?"

Based on the numbers, I'd say its somewhat low. A lot of sources say 300 is the lower limit of normal. A lot of opiates cause lowered testosterone. From what I have read, the problem arises in the hypothalamus, the same area of the brain that is responsible for endorphin production. Interesting.
I know it is low. It is ridiculously low for a 23 year old. I don't get it. I have a good libido. I think the lab may have made a mistake. I want to get re tested. Do labs ever make mistakes?
Would it make a difference if I took my sub a few hours before the test? Because I took the test about 3 hours before I dosed.
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Unread 06-17-2008, 04:22 AM   #6
staticx79
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Mr. T,
I know these numbers are probably freaking you out. As a 23 year old male (well really any male for that matter) guys place alot of emphasis on manliness, and I can completely understand you frustration. However, I think you need to breathe and think things over a little bit.

Your numbers may be on the low side of normal, but think about what you recently put your body through, using full opiates daily. Maybe your body is still adjusting.

Plus, testosterone levels do fluctuate alot. Maybe you should get checked a couple times monthly, to see the average, or to see if you are trending upwards, which could mean your body is just getting over your recent opiate use.

I just do not want you to make any rash decisions about your sub therapy based soley on one testosterone test. You are only 23, you have your whole life ahead of you. Do a slow safe taper, and even if that means having low/normal T levels for the next year or so, just think, then you'll be a 24-25 (still young with your whole life ahead of you)year old guy, who safely tapered sub, and now has phenomenal T levels.

If you think you can handle tapering sub fast, then by all means go for it. But don't just do it because you are worried about your testosterone levels.

Please talk to your sub Dr and regular Dr about the implications of the test. Lab results are just numbers, and sometimes do not mean a thing. Don't think just because you have T levels on the low side of normal that means you are any less of a man or any bullsh!t like that. It is not true. Labs do sometimes make mistakes, and if you feel like your libido is good, I would get rechecked, maybe see a specialist just to ease your mind. I really do not think you should worry about it though.
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Unread 06-17-2008, 03:28 PM   #7
Mr. T
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Thanks Staticx, you really been a good friend lately. About testosterone levels fluctuating, I read that they are highest in the morning and lowest in the afternoon.
The only thing that I can think of is I used marijuana about a dozen times in the past two months and the last time I used pot before my blood test was like a week, but maybe six or five days. I have been drinking a sh*t load of diet pop, including aspartame and splenda products. I am hopelessly addicted to artificial sweeteners. I get such intense cravings for diet soft drinks it amazes me. Other than that I eat pretty good.
I have been very busy this past week and haven't had much time to work out.
The last time I worked out before my blood test was like three days, but before that I was at my usual five day a week sessions. Do you think taking a few days off working out can reduce testosterone levels? I always heard the opposite, but I may be wrong.
I know it is the suboxone because my libido, as good as it may be, is not what it used to be. I don't want to be graphic, so I won't but believe me I used to have a freak of nature sex drive. Opiates have always calmed those urges for me; even suboxone. I just always figured bupe was safe on testosterone levels because of that methadone vs. buprenorphine comparison test.
I am not going off the deep end, and I will not quit suboxone completely, but I want to taper to 2mg or 1mg per day. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, and this will finally give me the incentive to taper to my goal dose of 2mg.
To be honest my theory has always been that suboxone works best for euphoria at 1-2mg because you get the advantage of having the bupe at work blocking the kappa receptor and you have your natural endorphin factory producing endorphins again along with a little bupe stimulating those mu(morphine) receptors.
Recently, about a week ago I was playing basketball with some friends and my good friend told me, "what's up Mike, you always look like your not in the game, you need to focus more and start reacting quicker".
I will admit at times when I need that extra anxiety, I don't have it because I am too medicated. Suboxone has delayed my reaction time a little, and I noticed when I am under a bench press or an Olympic rack my heart is not in it like it used to be and I just feel to calm and don't have that beast in me like I used to opiate free or even when I was on a lower dose of suboxone. I have to listen to music on my Ipod before every set I do to get my heart rate up, it is really sad.
I need to lower my dose and I finally have a good reason to do it, so this makes me shed some light on the situation. Maybe it was meant to be, because I am going back to school this fall, and I need the extra energy to focus better. I don't want to be too medicated anymore, I am sick of it anyways, but I can't completely stop suboxone and I really don't want to. I just hope when I am on a lower dose, I get my mojo back, I really do.
My taper plan is to drop 2mg a week from 8mg. I will keep the option to take an additional 2mg if I need it and I will not put my self into withdrawal out of impatience. Keep in mind that I have the wellbutrin to aid me. I also noticed that my six pack is not as defined as it used to be and I can't chisel it like I used to when I was on 2-4mg a day. I have been in denial about this and this is a sensitive issue for me, but I kind of have a spare tire these days. So I know it is the suboxone that is causing this and the pot must have something to do with it as well. I am never going to use pot again; marijuana is officially dead to me, and I am going to taper my sub.
I also noticed before I went on wellbutrin, when I was just taking the suboxone by it self, I wasn't really honestly that happy. I wasn't depressed, but I wasn't happy. I owe my happiness to wellbutrin and not suboxone. I think I just want to think that I will be happier if I stay at 8mg, but I know I am just lying to myself.

I just read something that could be a reason why my results were so low!
It said that poor sleep quality can plummet testosterone by 40% and the days before before my blood test and the night before my test I have been sleeping between 5.5-6.5 hours. This is hard to admit but I am a night person and I usually go to bed around 4AM but the days before my test I have been busy with meetings, registering for school, and work. So I had to adjust my sleep schedule, so I have been tired. And the night before my test I didn't sleep well and was very fatigued when I woke up and took a caffeine pill. Always a pill to solve our problems.
Could this be the reason why my results were on the low side of normal?
Also, I always drink a lot of fluids before I go to bed, and I wake up two to three times a night to take a piss. And this also makes me tired.


I did some research and sleep deprivation can reduce testosterone level significantly in healthy young men.
So I am going to take another blood test and update you guys as soon as possible.
I know that it is probably a combination of things that gave me those results and not just the sleep deprivation, but I am sure it had a big impact on my results.
I still am going to taper as I planned even if my results are boosted by 40%.
I have always been a problem solver, and I am not capable of stopping an obsession on curing a problem if it is possible to cure it.
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Unread 06-17-2008, 05:40 PM   #8
Madison7
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Good luck with your taper. If you are able to go from 8mgs to 0 by dropping 2mgs per week, you will be in the minority of people able to do such a thing. I am going to make a suggestion in case that taper proves to be to much. In my opinion, its a good idea to let the size of the dose drops be defined as a percentage of the current dose rather than a "set" milligram drop for each drop. Based on dropping 2mg per week from 8mg, your first drop will be a 25% reduction(thats a huge drop). The next drop will be a 33% reduction. The next a 50% reduction. It might be that you are able to tolerate the wd's that will definately ensue, and if so, I'll be glad for you. However it is possible to do a slower taper, and have zero, or close to zero wd's. 10% of the current dose per every two weeks. So the first drop would be 0.8 from 8mgs to 7.2mgs. The second would be 10% of 7.2mgs or 0.072 giving a dose of 6.48mgs. These numbers of course are gonna give problems in getting the pill cut to those amounts. The main point is that you get as close as you can and have a pretty close to equal percentage of the current dose drop each time. The most critical thing is that if you should find that you aren't able to taper, to not let the guilt drive you back to your doc. Just increase the bup dose back up to a sustainable level. You really are fortunate to have the opportunity you have at such a young age. Good luck.
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Unread 06-17-2008, 06:24 PM   #9
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

Good luck with your taper. If you are able to go from 8mgs to 0 by dropping 2mgs per week, you will be in the minority of people able to do such a thing. I am going to make a suggestion in case that taper proves to be to much. In my opinion, its a good idea to let the size of the dose drops be defined as a percentage of the current dose rather than a "set" milligram drop for each drop. Based on dropping 2mg per week from 8mg, your first drop will be a 25% reduction(thats a huge drop). The next drop will be a 33% reduction. The next a 50% reduction. It might be that you are able to tolerate the wd's that will definately ensue, and if so, I'll be glad for you. However it is possible to do a slower taper, and have zero, or close to zero wd's. 10% of the current dose per every two weeks. So the first drop would be 0.8% from 8mgs to 7.2mgs. The second would be 10% of 7.2mgs or 0.72% giving a dose of 6.48mgs. These numbers of course are gonna give problems in getting the pill cut to those amounts. The main point is that you get as close as you can and have a pretty close to equal percentage of the current dose drop each time. The most critical thing is that if you should find that you aren't able to taper, to not let the guilt drive you back to your doc. Just increase the bup dose back up to a sustainable level. You really are fortunate to have the opportunity you have at such a young age. Good luck.
Dude, did you read what I typed carefully. I wanted to taper to 2mg not to 0.

Also, something else has come to my attention and this may be serious.
I have a couple of 4 wheeler all terrain vehicles. And I live right by a farm. And without realizing I road on the farm the day before the farmer sprayed it with herbicides or weed killer.
Can this have long term effects. I even got a rash on my ankles, but it just occurred to me where that rash came from, I have been rubbing hydro cortisone on it for about three weeks now. So I road on that farm about three weeks ago. Is this serious?

I just talked to my dad and he told me that the farmer sprayed the farm a week before I road on it. This is what happened as I remember it:
First off I had a long sleeve shirt and pants on and as I was sitting on the quad my ankles were exposed because my pants were lifted or raised because I was sitting down. As I road through the farm I remember creating a dust cloud, but the dust that was emerging from the dirt and weeds on the ground was behind the vehicle because I was driving forward, but as I drove through the farm the dust obviously stayed low enough to expose my ankles, but not my face, because my face was not irritated. So I most likely did not inhale enough to get ill because I think I would of known by now or would of had some respiratory side effects, but I don't know. I remember feeling a little light headed, but my dad just told me that the farm was sprayed right when I got of the quad. So I don't know if it was mental or physical, but I didn't feel sick at all, and when I woke up the next day I had a rash on my ankles and for some reason didn't think twice that it came from driving on the farm.
Can anybody rationalize this for me?
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Unread 06-17-2008, 07:14 PM   #10
Madison7
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Mr. T wrote:

Quote:
quote:
Dude, did you read what I typed carefully. I wanted to taper to 2mg not to 0.

End quote.

No, I missed that, but it wouldn't have altered my post much.

Good luck.


Mr. T.......This might be useful.....

Excerpt:

"Symptoms included respiratory problems, headache, and eye irritation.[130] These data indicate that exposures to organophosphate pesticide drift may result in quantifiable cholinesterase inhibition in nearby residents."

Source:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/kids/farm/chap6.asp
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Unread 06-18-2008, 12:38 AM   #11
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

Mr. T wrote:

Quote:
quote:
Dude, did you read what I typed carefully. I wanted to taper to 2mg not to 0.

End quote.

No, I missed that, but it wouldn't have altered my post much.

Good luck.


Thanks for looking out but I think you missed when I said that when I was to drop 2mg a week I would leave the option open to take 2mg more if needed to avoid withdrawal. Just reread the post. I know my words probably twist around making it confusing, but I don't know.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

Mr. T.......This might be useful.....

Excerpt:

"Symptoms included respiratory problems, headache, and eye irritation.[130] These data indicate that exposures to organophosphate pesticide drift may result in quantifiable cholinesterase inhibition in nearby residents."

Source:
I didn't get any of those symptoms. The only thing I got was a skin rash on the bottom of the front of my legs in between the bottom of my pants and the top of my short athletic socks. It looks like a stripe.

http://www.nrdc.org/health/kids/farm/chap6.asp



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Unread 06-18-2008, 03:40 AM   #12
phone
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Hey T, does T stand for testosterone?
Do you remember when you told us you had OCD?

I think you might be OCD'ing on the testosterone level and making a big deal out of a lab number.
Also, remember when you drove home from the lab punching your stearing wheel and swearing cuz she did a bad blood draw? Well, that's a lot of testosterone, isn't it? Punching and swearing?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really don't know if testosterone has anything to do with tempers. But you definitely have a temper. You also have moods that are evident from post to post, like we all do.

I wonder what your testosterone level was when you were high on your DOC? Do you think you would have even cared about testosterone levels when you were chasing your dragon?

Just trying to put this into a little bit of perspective.

BREATHE!
Sleep well.
Ember
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:35 PM   #13
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ember

Hey T, does T stand for testosterone?
Do you remember when you told us you had OCD?

I think you might be OCD'n on the testosterone level and making a big deal out of a lab number.
Also, remember when you drove home from the lab punching your stearing wheel and swearing CZ she did a bad blood draw? Well, that's a lot of testosterone, isn't it? Punching and swearing?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really don't know if testosterone has anything to do with tempers. But you definitely have a temper. You also have moods that are evident from post to post, like we all do.

I wonder what your testosterone level was when you were high on your DOC? Do you think you would have even cared about testosterone levels when you were chasing your dragon?

Just trying to put this into a little bit of perspective.

BREATHE!
Sleep well.
Ember
I wouldn't of cared about my testosterone level when I was on my DOC because I wasn't capable to.
Being on suboxone is like being on nothing in the sense that I care about the quality of my life and my life is normal. I am sure testosterone fluctuates normally in all men, and being that I didn't sleep to much in the days before my test and especially the day before my test because I had to wake up early in the AM, I am sure it effected it by 50 to 75 points and possibly more I hope.
Now that I had a couple of days to think about this, my plan is to cut down to at least 4mg by thirty days, make sure I am fully rested and take the blood test again and go from there. I start school Aug. 25, and I hope to be at 2mg, or 2mg with the option of taking another 2mg if needed on my way to just 2mg daily. I think my quality of my life will improve on a lower dose of bupe. I mean how much bupe is needed to produce agonist effects? Why do you think they give bupe to opiate naive people at doses like .25mg or 1mg, or just lower doses in general than what we dependents take. I am starting to think that bupe treatment, when initially started should be based upon an immediate taper, and that the patient for example if started at 16mg, should be immediately tapered to 2mg, and then long term maintenance should proceed.
Maybe, it isn't good to stay on a high dose of bupe long term. Maybe, we all should taper to 2mg, and then maintain for the remainder of our recoveries. I don't know, there is a good chance I am wrong about this, but this is what Dr. Gracer's approach is all about. You start bupe at whatever dose you need, then you immediately slowly taper to a low maintenance dose, and as you lower the dose, your brain re connects its pathways to the endorphin factory, and you brain starts to make natural opiates again. This is what heals the brains endorphin factory in all actuality. If we don't taper and just work on the sociological aspects, we are only fixing 50% of the problem. And I realize the it is hard to taper when initially starting bupe treatment, but it is not easy to taper when you have been on 16mg for 3 years for example. On a low dose you will get the best of both worlds. You will get the advantages of producing more endorphins naturally and the benefits of the partial mu stimulation, and the strong kappa blocking effects that the bupe produces. So wouldn't it make sense that you would be more euphoric; extra endorphin production + partial mu stimulation + strong kappa blocking = more euphoria. Dr. Gracer said that being that the bupe fits so well in the kappa receptors, only a small amount of bupe is needed to provide the patient with its kappa blocking abilities. He also said that bupe blocks the kappa receptors better than all other opiates. And that the kappa receptor is what causes the long term PAW because it takes longer for the kappa receptors to heal than the mu receptors. So the patient may become more happy, but the kappa impairment will riddle the patient with over excitement, anxiety, and restlessness possibly for months or years; this is why bupe is essential. Fortunately, only tiny doses of bupe are needed to block the kappa receptors, and the patient can adjust comfortably.
My problem along with every other opioid victims problem is are brains are programed to think more opiates = more euphoria.
I have read pages and pages of literature on how bupe only partially stimulates the mu receptor resulting in a ceiling effect because if the bupe can only partially stimulate the mu receptor, how will more bupe make us feel better. Because there is only so much euphoria this med can produce. Also, the higher of a dose of bupe you are on, the more your endorphin production will be impaired. I was taking 8mg for example, and that 8mg of bupe was occupying nearly all of my mu receptors telling my brain, Mr. t doesn't need endorphins, he has got plenty of partially stimulating bupe to provide his mu receptors with stimulation. Natural endorphins don't partially stimulate mu receptors, they stimulate these receptors similar to full agonists and even better when there is a life or death emergency. Endorphins stimulate mu receptors way better than bupe, but we only release endorphins when the time calls for it, and these endorphins don't 'stick' to are receptors for days like bupe does unless we were in a serious emergency, like getting in a car accident and rolling down a ravine breaking dozens of bones in your body, getting marooned for days having no choice but to crawl to safety if possible. The only thing bupe may do better then endorphins is block the kappa receptor system. Nothing is stronger than are natural painkillers, this is how we evolved and made it this far. Believe me on this one.
I can type forever about this, but I hope everyone understands what I am saying here. Less is more, it just has to be; right?
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:48 PM   #14
phone
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Less is KILLING me today in that I'm nodding out and can't stay awake! I put a thread on this hoping for feedback on WHY less would knock me out.
WTF!
E
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Unread 06-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #15
TMONEY
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Yo Mr.T,
Hey man it's a fact of life that as you get older it will get harder and harder to keep your "spare tire" deflated and that six pack chisled. At 19 years old it's pretty easy to keep that stomach fat off. Maybe it's just you got to that next phase of life, not the bupe? I'm just throwing this out there, I'm sure you've thought of everything when it comes to working out because you seem to have this area all thought out. Good luck on your taper bro.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 10:06 PM   #16
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Mr T. My advise would be to get tested again so you're sure of your score and then if you are low go to your doc and have him give you a presciption for the testosterone patch or compound. I was on the patch for a while but I'm over 50. It wasn't that big a thing.
But relax, your body is going through alot right now and it will get back into shape.
Good Luck
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Unread 06-19-2008, 01:11 AM   #17
Madison7
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"Less is more, it just has to be; right?"

No. The agonist effects are approached as the dose increases until a ceiling is reached.

source:

"http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/about.html

The agonist effects of buprenorphine increase linearly with increasing doses of the drug until at moderate doses they reach a plateau and no longer continue to increase with further increases in dose—the ceiling effect.”

The maximal effects of buprenorphine appear to occur in the 16Ö32 mg dose range for sublingual tablets. Higher doses are unlikely to produce greater effects."

End quote.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 02:48 AM   #18
phone
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Mr. T, DON't get a testosterone patch if it at all affects your MOODS or Anger or irritability. (No offense, Stranger,) Just My OPINION!!!!!!!!

What does testosterone do? Do you just need a Viagra or is it more of a "i don't even want to have sex" kind of thing?

Don't answer that question, just thought I'd throw it out there. No one has talked about (that I have read) performance issues, only libido, so I'm assuming libido means you don't want sex, and performance is you can't even if you wanted to. I did read a woman report hard to reach orgasm.

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Unread 06-19-2008, 03:38 AM   #19
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

"Less is more, it just has to be; right?"

No. The agonist effects are approached as the dose increases until a ceiling is reached.

source:

"http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/about.html

The agonist effects of buprenorphine increase linearly with increasing doses of the drug until at moderate doses they reach a plateau and no longer continue to increase with further increases in dose—the ceiling effect.”

The maximal effects of buprenorphine appear to occur in the 16–32 mg dose range for sublingual tablets. Higher doses are unlikely to produce greater effects."

End quote.



I understand this concept, and in that respect less is not more. I was referring to more of a quality of life aspect of less is more.
Were as I would feel better on a lower dose because I would have less of a dependency and have more of a connection to my natural ability to produce endorphins, more testosterone, and just a better quality of life in general.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ember

Mr. T, DON't get a testosterone patch if it at all affects your MOODS or Anger or irritability. (No offense, Stranger,) Just My OPINION!!!!!!!!

What does testosterone do? Do you just need a Viagra or is it more of a "i don't even want to have sex" kind of thing?

Don't answer that question, just thought I'd throw it out there. No one has talked about (that I have read) performance issues, only libido, so I'm assuming libido means you don't want sex, and performance is you can't even if you wanted to. I did read a woman report hard to reach orgasm.

E
Ember, there is more to testosterone, then anger, sex drive and muscle.
Testosterone is a vital hormone for men, it keeps are moods regulated, are bodies in peak condition, are sex drives healthy.
No never mind you are right, that pretty much sums it up.
But, I would never consider testosterone replacement at this point.
First off, my testosterone is not low. It is just on the lower side of normal. My sex drive is fine. I have more body hair than the vast majority of men. I haven't lost my body hair either, but I trim it with electric clippers because it looks ridiculous. I have a bin laden thick beard, but I shave of course. I have all the characteristics of a man with normal to high testosterone. My test numbers were probably low because of the fact that I was deprived of rest before the days and the day before the blood test. I read that it can influence tests up to 40%. I scored a 252. 40% of 252 is about 100 additional points right?
So that would leave me at about 350, which is still not really high, but then you would have to consider the bupe which is probably dropping me around another 100-300 more points. So I bet you if I wasn't on suboxone my test would score between 500-850. When I was 18 me and my girl friend would fornicate up to ten times a day and I would ejaculate every time, so does that sound like I have a problem with testosterone? But I remember later when I started using methadone while I was dating her, I couldn't bust a nut if my life depended on it. What does that tell you of opiates influence on testosterone? I only hope when I taper to 2mg my testosterone levels are high. I don't know what I would do if they were still low on a low does of bupe? Probably just except it I guess. If it is a problem, I start school this fall, I will take classes in the fall and the spring, but if a low dose of sub still effects the quality of my life, I will take the summer semester of school off, and detox and be rid of bupe for good.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 04:38 AM   #20
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Endorphins come from "endogenous morphine" or morphine from within the body. Endorphins and morphine are so similar in make up that they fit the same receptors. I agree that endorphins played a huge role in the nature of our evolution. A lot of good info about past and future developement in that regard can be found in "The hedonistic imperative"... here's an excerpt...

"This manifesto outlines a strategy to eradicate suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is ambitious, implausible, but technically feasible. It is defended here on ethical utilitarian grounds. Genetic engineering and nanotechnology allow Homo sapiens to discard the legacy-wetware of our evolutionary past. Our post-human successors will rewrite the vertebrate genome, redesign the global ecosystem, and abolish suffering throughout the living world."

End quote.

I think our endogonous morphine is as strong as a natural pain killer that we possess. I could be wrong. I do know that bup is stronger than that, and a little known opiate called etorphine is hundreds of times stronger than bup. A portion of a drop on the skin and your toast. Its strength is about 10,000 times that of morphine. Its used in veterinary medicine.
(Just a little trivia)
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Unread 06-19-2008, 09:05 AM   #21
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From Josie's post:

Patients treated with buprenorphine had a significantly higher testosterone level [5.1 +/- 1.2 ng/ml (17.7 +/- 4.2 nmol/liter) vs. 2.8 +/- 1.2 ng/ ml (9.7 +/- 4.2 nmol/liter); P < 0.0001] and a significantly lower frequency of sexual dysfunction (P < 0.0001) compared with patients treated with methadone. The testosterone level of buprenorphine-treated patients did not differ from that of healthy controls. In conclusion, we demonstrated for the first time that buprenorphine, in contrast with high-dose methadone, seems not to suppress plasma testosterone in heroin-addicted men.

So I guess I don't understand why you think lowering your sub dose will increase your T levels? It appears they would be even lower without sub?
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Unread 06-19-2008, 01:30 PM   #22
phone
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I think when all of us were 18, our sex drives were higher.
But definitely using opiates affects that. I know for sure.
Since I started sub, I do even think ever of having sex but my husband does.

Dont most couples fight about money and/or sex anyway?

I'm glad to your not going to put on a testosterone patch! It would just drive anyone crazy I think. It's like steroids?

E
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Unread 06-19-2008, 05:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Madison7

Endorphins come from "endogenous morphine" or morphine from within the body. Endorphins and morphine are so similar in make up that they fit the same receptors. I agree that endorphins played a huge role in the nature of our evolution. A lot of good info about past and future developement in that regard can be found in "The hedonistic imperative"... here's an excerpt...

"This manifesto outlines a strategy to eradicate suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is ambitious, implausible, but technically feasible. It is defended here on ethical utilitarian grounds. Genetic engineering and nanotechnology allow Homo sapiens to discard the legacy-wetware of our evolutionary past. Our post-human successors will rewrite the vertebrate genome, redesign the global ecosystem, and abolish suffering throughout the living world."

End quote.

I think our endogonous morphine is as strong as a natural pain killer that we possess. I could be wrong. I do know that bup is stronger than that, and a little known opiate called etorphine is hundreds of times stronger than bup. A portion of a drop on the skin and your toast. Its strength is about 10,000 times that of morphine. Its used in veterinary medicine.
(Just a little trivia)


Bupe is about forty times stronger than morphine, and it may be stronger than endorphins in a certain degree, but remember, it only partially stimulates are natural morphine(mu) receptors, therefore, it can't be as strong as are natural painkillers, because they fully stimulate are opiate receptors. Also, I don't know this for sure, this is just something I believe because it makes sense. So the more of our mu receptors are occupied by bupe the less endorphins are available to occupy them. Also, remember bupe sucks at stimulating mu receptors, but bupe is good at blocking the kappa system, especially at low doses. It can efficiently block the kappa system at doses as low as .25mg.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ember

I think when all of us were 18, our sex drives were higher.
But definitely using opiates affects that. I know for sure.
Since I started sub, I do even think ever of having sex but my husband does.

Dont most couples fight about money and/or sex anyway?

I'm glad to your not going to put on a testosterone patch! It would just drive anyone crazy I think. It's like steroids?

E
Testosterone therapy is prescribed in safe controlled doses. So they are not going to pump you up full of test. Body builders that juice take ten to a hundred fold what a doctor would prescribe them.
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Unread 06-19-2008, 07:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mr. T


Bupe is about forty times stronger than morphine....
This is not true at the doses we take. This has been explained many times please read and understand it, so you are not spreading information that could be harmful to people.
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by staticx79

When people say things like " sub is 50 X stronger than morphine" they are sorta incorrect. I posted this awhile back, but I dont think anyone responded. At doses of 0.2 and 0.4mg sub is 20-50 X (i forget the exact number) more potent as an ANALGESIC than morphine. This means that you would take the dose of sub (0.4mg for instance) and multiply that by 20 or 50, which is 8 or 20. That means that, for pain killing ability, 0.4mg of buprenorphine is equivalent to 8-20mg morphine.

Now, sub is a partial agonist, therefore it has less intrinsic activity at the receptors. This means it DOES NOT have linear kinetics. By that I mean, IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT to state that at the doses WE are taking, it is 20-50 X more potent than morphine. At smaller doses (like 0.2-0.8), yes, it may be. But as you keep adding more and more sub, you get less and less of an ADDED effect.

Therefore, you can say 0.4mg of sub has the same pain killing effect of 8-20mg morphine, BUT 4mg IS NOT equivalent to 80-200mg morphine.

To think of it in common sense terms, I take 8mg twice daily of sub. If I would stop taking it for 2-3 days (so that it wouldn't be able to block the receptors) and then try taking 400mg morphine twice a day (assuming the 50 X stronger-- 8mg X 50 is 400mg), obviously it would get me unbelievably high. And if it truly was equivalent, it wouldn't get me high, it would just get me out of wds.

It is sort of a complicated concept to understand, which is why I think certain people with the "sub***" mentality have taken this statement "sub is 20-50 X more potent than morphine," out of context for their own twisted propaganda and to scare people who are thinking of starting sub. Newbies might think, "OMG, I am trying to get off of things like morphine, I don't want to take a drug that is 20-50 X stronger than morphine!!!"

So ember, dont worry, it is simply untrue that at the doses we are taking, that sub is 20-50 X stronger than morphine. Whomever states that fact with out putting it in its proper context either has a poor understanding of pharmacology or is using it too scare you.
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Unread 06-20-2008, 12:55 AM   #25
Mr. T
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sub-Zero

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Mr. T


Bupe is about forty times stronger than morphine....
This is not true at the doses we take. This has been explained many times please read and understand it, so you are not spreading information that could be harmful to people.
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by staticx79

When people say things like " sub is 50 X stronger than morphine" they are sorta incorrect. I posted this awhile back, but I dont think anyone responded. At doses of 0.2 and 0.4mg sub is 20-50 X (i forget the exact number) more potent as an ANALGESIC than morphine. This means that you would take the dose of sub (0.4mg for instance) and multiply that by 20 or 50, which is 8 or 20. That means that, for pain killing ability, 0.4mg of buprenorphine is equivalent to 8-20mg morphine.

Now, sub is a partial agonist, therefore it has less intrinsic activity at the receptors. This means it DOES NOT have linear kinetics. By that I mean, IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT to state that at the doses WE are taking, it is 20-50 X more potent than morphine. At smaller doses (like 0.2-0.8), yes, it may be. But as you keep adding more and more sub, you get less and less of an ADDED effect.

Therefore, you can say 0.4mg of sub has the same pain killing effect of 8-20mg morphine, BUT 4mg IS NOT equivalent to 80-200mg morphine.

To think of it in common sense terms, I take 8mg twice daily of sub. If I would stop taking it for 2-3 days (so that it wouldn't be able to block the receptors) and then try taking 400mg morphine twice a day (assuming the 50 X stronger-- 8mg X 50 is 400mg), obviously it would get me unbelievably high. And if it truly was equivalent, it wouldn't get me high, it would just get me out of wds.

It is sort of a complicated concept to understand, which is why I think certain people with the "sub***" mentality have taken this statement "sub is 20-50 X more potent than morphine," out of context for their own twisted propaganda and to scare people who are thinking of starting sub. Newbies might think, "OMG, I am trying to get off of things like morphine, I don't want to take a drug that is 20-50 X stronger than morphine!!!"

So ember, dont worry, it is simply untrue that at the doses we are taking, that sub is 20-50 X stronger than morphine. Whomever states that fact with out putting it in its proper context either has a poor understanding of pharmacology or is using it too scare you.
It wouldn't matter if it was forty times more potent than morphine because it is a partial agonist anyways. How can it be as strong as morphine if there is a ceiling effect. Like you said it is only forty times more potent at its peak agonist abilities.

I was reading that clinical trial of the 17 heroin addicted men on bupe who's testosterone levels were tested and on the section marked hormones assayed I think, it mentioned that these mens T levels were tested in the morning before they took their bupe or methadone. It also said that these men were tested for three months.
I dosed a couple of hours before I drew my blood, and I didn't sleep well the day and days before my test and I have been on suboxone for a year compared to these men who were on sub for a few months.
This trial is sketchy as hell, there were only 17 men tested and this is the only test ever done on this issue and they didn't cover every aspect of these males reproductive and testosterone issues. I think only total and free testosterone was tested. I also think the bupe lowered their testosterone levels to a certain degree as well. It may have not lowered it enough to knock these 17 mens T levels out of normal range, but I am sure it lower their levels by at least 5-10%. Bupe may not produce euphoria but it is still a powerful opioid, and opioids lower testosterone.

I think they should test testosterone levels in at least 300 men on bupe who are treated for over six months at least and they should test their levels after they dose, not before, and they should test sleep deprivation and bupes effect on these mens T levels and I think they might be shocked at what they find.

I actually have an appointment this monday to draw blood, I have tapered to 6mg so far from 8mg and I will make sure I eat well, rest well, and not dose before the test. I am confident my testosterone levels will be different. I'll update everybody.
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Unread 06-21-2008, 09:35 PM   #26
phone
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Hi, T. how is your taper going? I see you are still very concerned about your Testosterone number. How are you feeling going down 2mg's? Any side effects, etc?

I am very hopeful that you get a higher number next time so you can quit worrying about this.

Would it matter if your level said "excellent" but you still had less sex drive?

What I'm saying is, does that number really matter so much to you? And if so, WHY?

Can I say something that is none of my business?
Okay, thanks,,,,I think you are worrying about this far too much.


E
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Unread 06-21-2008, 11:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by ember

Hi, T. how is your taper going? I see you are still very concerned about your Testosterone number. How are you feeling going down 2mg's? Any side effects, etc?

I am very hopeful that you get a higher number next time so you can quit worrying about this.

Would it matter if your level said "excellent" but you still had less sex drive?

What I'm saying is, does that number really matter so much to you? And if so, WHY?

Can I say something that is none of my business?
Okay, thanks,,,,I think you are worrying about this far too much.


E
The taper is going smooth, but not as fast as I hoped it would. I think I will be able to take 6mg from now on without discomfort.
I tried to drop to 6mg from 8mg right away, and I didn't get any wd symptoms except cravings. These past five days have been. 6,4,8,6,8, and today I will take 6mg and hopefully stay at it, but if I have to take 8mg one more time it is no biggy. I just want to be at 2mg by the end of August if possible, but I am not a fan of discomfort, so I will do this as quick as I can without being uncomfortable.
There is no frickin doubt that bupe is lowering my testosterone; I feel it in my gut, and I felt it before and that is what drove me to get my T levels tested to begin with. I know it is a number, but that number represents how much total testosterone that I had at that moment. No doubt, it was low because of special circumstances, and my total testosterone levels are probably higher. I mean they would have to be because if I truly had that much testosterone I wouldn't be able to bench 215lbs five times and I way 177lbs right now at 6ft. I will admit, I used to be way more shredded than I am now, but that is because my diet has been bad because I get those suboxone munchies as well and my vice has been those skinny cow brand ice cream these days.
I hope my testosterone levels are higher or my world is going to be upside down. I may even get script to testosterone, but I hope it doesn't come to that.

I just want to update on my taper. I am at 6mg right now and I feel great.
My libido has blown the roof off my house. I hope this lasts and I hope it isn't because I haven't completely adjusted to the 6mg yet, but who knows.
All I know is that I feel that burning desire down south that I used to feel when I wasn't on any drugs at all. It is a powerful feeling and I forgot how it is supposed to feel like. Hopefully it was because 8mg was too much. I am going to keep tapering till I get as low as 2mg and possibly 1mg, and I hope when I adjust to that dose I can feel this good. Being medicated sucks. I used to like it, and I still do in a way, but life is so much better when you can feel everything and you are not all numbed up. Suboxone still numbs these feelings, and I have to admit I didn't realize it because I was so used to taking my 8mg a day, and I thought that was how I was supposed to feel. The only thing that I am afraid of now is that I will eventually adjust to the low dose and I will feel medicated again. I don't want to be medicated any more, but I still do in a way because it feels good. I just hope I can have the best of both worlds on a crumb of sub.
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Unread 06-25-2008, 05:05 AM   #28
angelout
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aHHH, MEN, THEY ARE SOOOOO PREDICTABLE.
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Unread 06-25-2008, 09:22 AM   #29
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Here's something to put your mind at ease Mr. T: I already noticed two things you do that can lower your levels: Rigourous dieting and using alcohol (though I think you quit that one?)
Good luck!

13 Ways to Naturally Boost Your Testosterone Levels
By Ron Geraci, Men's Health, December 25, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The normal level of testosterone in your bloodstream is between 350 and 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dl). Like combable hair, those quantities silently start to wane around age 40. You lose about 1 percent a year -- a harmless decline in the short term, but a cause of obesity, brittle bones, muscle loss and impotence by the time you reach your 60s -- if you live that long. Testosterone levels in the low range (a blood serum score below 350 ng/dl) may increase your chances of dying of a heart attack.

It's not just an old man's problem, either. Men in their 30s and 40s also fall prey to low testosterone counts. It's a disorder called hypogonadism, and it can be caused by an undescended testicle, a testicular injury, a pituitary gland disorder or even prescription drugs. It usually goes undiagnosed until a man hits his doctor with a telltale complaint: "I can't get an erection."

"If you have reduced levels of sexual desire, have your testosterone level checked immediately," says Dr. Allen Seftel, a urologist at Case Western Reserve University Hospitals of Cleveland. You can replenish your testosterone stores with injections, gels, pills or patches, but these medical treatments are no panacea: Side effects include acne, high cholesterol, shrunken testicles and liver damage. Further, don't take supplements like DHEA or androstenedione to boost testosterone; they might increase your risks of prostate cancer and heart disease.

"For men with borderline testosterone scores, I advise them to try to raise their levels through exercise and weight loss before going on testosterone therapy," says Dr. Goldberg. And it might pay to start young. "Since your testosterone declines at a steady rate, it's conceivable that raising your hormone levels naturally in your 20s and 30s could help you maintain higher levels later on," he says. Either way, the reward can be a stronger physique and better bedroom sessions than you'd otherwise deserve. Below are 13 tips designed to get your juice up -- safely.

Get Rid of the Flopping Belly

Or you'll grow a pair of fetching breasts to complement it. Carrying excess body fat elevates your estrogen levels, and that may cause your testosterone levels to sink, says Joseph Zmuda, an epidemiologist at the University of Pittsburgh. Louie Anderson is proof enough of this. Two or three extra pounds won't cause this hormonal shift; it really occurs once you're 30 percent over your ideal body weight. "Unfortunately, that's pretty common now," says Dr. Dobs.

But Lose Only One Pound a Week

When you want to trim down quickly, you probably starve yourself while exercising like a madman. One of the many reasons this stops working in your 30s, when your natural testosterone levels start dropping, is pretty simple: Cutting your calorie intake by more than 15 percent makes your brain think you're starving, so it shuts down testosterone production to wait out the famine. "There's no need to reproduce if you're starving," explains Thomas Incledon of Human Performance Specialists in Plantation, Fla. Ironically, this dive in circulating testosterone stops you from burning body fat efficiently, so you're actually thwarting your hard efforts to melt that tire off your gut.

Skip the Atkins Fad

Research suggests that eating a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet can cramp your testosterone levels. High amounts of dietary protein in your blood can eventually lower the amount of testosterone produced in your testes, says Incledon, who observed this relationship in a Penn State study of 12 healthy, athletic men.

Your protein intake should be about 16 percent of your daily calories, Incledon says. So, if you're the average 170-pound man who eats 2,900 calories a day, you should eat about 140 grams of protein daily, which is about the amount in two chicken breasts and a 6-ounce can of tuna.

Have Morning Sex

German scientists found that simply having an erection causes your circulating testosterone to rise significantly -- and having one in the morning can goose your natural post-dawn testosterone surge. It's a sure bet you'll burn a little fat, too.

Stick With Tough Exercises

To beef up your testosterone levels, the bulk of your workout should involve "compound" weight-lifting exercises that train several large muscle groups, and not just one or two smaller muscles. For example, studies have shown that doing squats, bench presses or back rows increases testosterone more than doing biceps curls or triceps pushdowns, even though the effort may seem the same. This is why doing squats could help you build bigger biceps.

Make Nuts Your Midnight Snack

Nuts are good for your nuts. Research has found that men who ate diets rich in monounsaturated fat -- the kind found in peanuts -- had the highest testosterone levels. "It's not known why this occurs, but some scientists believe that monounsaturated fats have a direct effect on the testes," says Incledon. Nuts, olive oil, canola oil and peanut butter are good sources of monounsaturated fat.

Squeeze Out Five Repetitions per Set

Throwing around 5-pound dumbbells won't help you effect a rise in testosterone. Start off by using a heavy weight that you can lift only five times. That weight is about 85 percent of your one-repetition maximum. A Finnish study found that this workload produced the greatest boosts in testosterone.

Do Three Sets of Each Weight-Lifting Movement

Researchers at Penn State determined that this fosters greater increases in testosterone than just one or two sets. Rest a full minute between sets, so you can regain enough strength to continue lifting at least 70 percent of your one-rep maximum during the second and third sets.

Rest Harder Than You Work Out

If you overtrain -- meaning you don't allow your body to recuperate adequately between training sessions -- your circulating testosterone levels can plunge by as much as 40 percent, according to a study at the University of North Carolina. The symptoms of overtraining are hard to miss: irritability, insomnia, muscle shrinkage, joining the Reform Party. To avoid overtraining, make sure you sleep a full eight hours at night, and never stress the same muscles with weight-lifting movements two days in a row.

Drive Home Sober

To maintain a healthy testosterone count -- and titanium erections -- cut yourself off after three drinks. "Binge drinking will kill your testosterone levels," warns Incledon. Alcohol affects the endocrine system, causing your testes to stop producing the male hormone. That's one reason drinking often causes you to go limp at the moment of truth.

Have a Sandwich at 3 p.m.

As any sensible woman knows, the way to put hair on a man's chest is to fill his stomach. Your body needs a ready supply of calories to make testosterone, so regularly skipping meals or going for long stretches without eating can cause your levels of the hormone to plummet. Then again, that's probably the warden's plan.

Buy the Fried Tortilla Chips

If you want to raise your testosterone score, eat a diet that includes about 30 percent fat, and not much less. Your body needs dietary fat to produce testosterone, so eating like a vegetarian aerobics instructor will cause your testosterone levels to sink drastically. This is bad, unless you actually are a vegetarian aerobics instructor.

Stop Surfing for Porn at 2 a.m.

Sleeping less than seven to eight hours a night can screw up your circadian rhythm. That's why it's no wonder your testosterone levels are higher in the morning after a good night's sleep. So if your work or social schedule keeps you stooped in perpetual jet lag, don't be surprised if you stop craving sex. At least that'll make it easier to stay out of bed.


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Unread 06-25-2008, 03:19 PM   #30
sunsetgirl
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Staticx - just going back a few posts - you explained that sub becomes (more morphine like) at lower doses.
Could this explain why Ember is having trouble nodding off at lower doses? And as for myself whose dose has been mainly 3mg and now tapering and sitting at 2.6mg and still getting the nods badly - are you perhaps saying this side effect would be not so evident on a higher dose? I know morphine makes me incredibly drowsy from post operative experiences.
Thanks.
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Unread 06-25-2008, 04:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
quote:Mr. T, DON't get a testosterone patch if it at all affects your MOODS or Anger or irritability. (No offense, Stranger,) Just My OPINION!!!!!!!!
Quote:
quote:
I'm glad to your not going to put on a testosterone patch! It would just drive anyone crazy I think. It's like steroids?
Ember, What's the problem with the patch?. As Mr. T said tesotosterone is a vital component in a males body. Putting on the patch just made me feel normal and gave me energy. My doctor told me that a very high percentage of men have drops in their testosterone levels after 50. Suboxone had a dramatic effect on my libido and is the main reason I'm just not staying on it for the rest of my life. I miss my sex life.
But I think of testosterone as just another medication. And if someone has a low level the patch would be a perfectly reasonable method of bringing those levels back
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Unread 06-25-2008, 05:15 PM   #32
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Hey Mr.T

I skipped the last few posts, but this is my take on your results. Most men peak when there a teenager, your 23, your results are NORMAL what are you worried about? The problems that can arise from taking T replacement are many. So think long and hard before considering this option, IMO your recovery should come first, if you are read to go to 2 mg a day, then do so, but do it right, or you may just have to do it over a again. Also bupe is not the only drug you are taking, Right? Have you considered any of the others?

I think you might be getting worked up over nothing, if you tested again they might be a little higher.

Is this all because you want to build more muscle?

Hope things work out for you, but these real are quality problems, so aren't you glad you have this to worry about it and not where your next fix is coming form?

Smith
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Unread 06-25-2008, 05:48 PM   #33
Mr. Man
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I dont know what my testosterone levels are, but I do know I have 'NO' sex drive !!!!! This has been since I've started the bup.. What's up (no pun intended) with that ????????????
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Unread 06-25-2008, 08:57 PM   #34
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Man,
LOL, That's a common side effect of all opioids but since sub doesn't have the cycles experienced with other opioids, it is more constant. It decreases with dose decreases and returns completely once off. I found it kind of a relief, it allowed me to concentrate on what I needed to do to change my life without the distractions and emotions of a relationship.
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Unread 12-05-2008, 10:13 AM   #35
follydad
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Hate to suggest yet another pill, but if you throw in 1/2 of a Levitra or Cialis when you want it to be a night to remember, it's pretty much a guarantee. If I detect my wife doing extra primping for a major night of intimacy, I will occasionally take half one of those pills. Then the only problem is making your libido go away later in the night.

Another drawback is if you expect a major night of lovin and you get in an argument or the mother in law calls. Now you've got a situation on your hands, literally.
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Unread 12-05-2008, 08:13 PM   #36
azg2b
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Mr. T,

Sorry but there were so many posts under this topic I didn't have a chance to read them all. So maybe my two questions have already been answered:

1) Are you depressed? Depression is proven to cause a decrease in libido.

2) Do you exercise? Exercise enhances libido, that's also proven.

I only ask because I went throguh something similar. I was put on an exercise regiment and a low dose AD and the wife soon had that "Skip in her step" that she once had.

Just a couple thoughts - sorry if they've been discussed already. With my 7 and 4 year old here with me I can't spend too much time on line.

Best wishes,

j
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