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Unread 11-28-2009, 01:34 PM   #1
Benzerellie
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Default Tired and nauseous (Suboxone)

Hello, I started my treatment about a week and half ago and I"m still struggling with dosage and stabilization. The first week I was on 4mg 2x per day and felt alot better after the opiate withdrawal, now I'm prescribed 12mg per day. I do feel quite tired throughout the day and generally don't feel that great..and I seem to be upping my dosage on my own taking around 16mg-20mg per day, I havent had a chance to talk with my Dr. yet, I see him again in about a week but I am worried about running out before I see him...Any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you, Ben
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Unread 11-28-2009, 02:08 PM   #2
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Hi Benzerellie, why did the doctor increase your dose to 12/day if 8 was working? With Suboxone, more is not better. Actually, the symptoms you're experiencing generally mean that the dose is too high.

Fluctuating on a dose doesn't help either. Suboxone has a long halflife so fluctuating causes the peaks and vallleys in the amount of medication in your system.

IMO, first thing to do would be to stay on a steady dose. If 8mg was working for you and your symptoms started when you increased it to 12, then you might think about going back to 8mg and stabilize there.

Hope that helps.

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Unread 11-28-2009, 03:01 PM   #3
Benzerellie
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**Hugs** Nancy
I have to start therapy next week and I'm unsure if group therapy or one-on-one would be better..what do you think?
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Unread 11-28-2009, 04:06 PM   #4
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Hi again.

What kind of therapy is really up to you and what you're looking to accomplish. One-on-one guarantees that you will have the therapist's undivided attention and you can work on what you feel is important to work on.

Group therapy is good too. Some people find strength in being in a group; but it could also not be what YOU want to work on or there may be people in the group who dominate the session.

Sometimes the first therapist or group isn't a match either. So don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions before making an appointment so you can at least get a feel for what it will be like.

I hope that helped somewhat.

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Unread 11-28-2009, 04:49 PM   #5
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Thanks again Nancy, you've helped alot and I appreciate it. I did one-on-one therapy around 10 years ago before my addiction problem. It seemed more like spending money for a friend rather than therapy..In groups I tend to exp anxiety and clam up...idk

Last edited by Benzerellie; 11-28-2009 at 05:11 PM..
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Unread 11-29-2009, 07:24 PM   #6
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When are the online meetings? Checking the site now.
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Unread 11-29-2009, 07:29 PM   #7
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Hi Benzerellie, here's the link for the chats.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20288

How are you doing today?

Nancy
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Unread 11-29-2009, 07:32 PM   #8
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Surprisingly ok, still a bit groggy but not as bad as before, lowered my dosage 4mg, I went back to work today, it was a struggle this morning after being out for a week and a half. How are you? Thanks for asking=)
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Unread 11-29-2009, 07:35 PM   #9
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Oh I forgot to ask you...A friend of mine who has been in treatment and Suboxone for 2 years told me today after his appt. with his Dr. that the makers of the drug are requiring each person who take the drug too register online and they receive some kind of workbook that is mandatory?? Haven't found out anymore info yet..

Last edited by Benzerellie; 11-29-2009 at 07:40 PM..
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Unread 11-29-2009, 07:50 PM   #10
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Hi again, I think that person is talking about the Here To Help program. It is NOT mandatory for anyone. Unless your doctor is making is mandatory to his patients.

Here's a thread about it:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=21523

I think your friend should talk with the doctor about it. Because it is by no means a mandatory program. It's there for anyone who would find it helpful.

Nancy
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Unread 11-29-2009, 08:11 PM   #11
Benzerellie
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I thought thats what it might be, but he was sure that is wasn't the Here to Help program, he may have been mistaken.
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Unread 11-29-2009, 08:23 PM   #12
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That's the only program that the manufacturer has. Plus I don't think they could legally force patients to participate in any program.

This must be something that the doctor is making part of his program. But he shouldn't be forced to give out any personal information about him or his treatment to anyone.

When you get a chance, I'd love to know what he's talking about.

Nancy
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Unread 12-01-2009, 09:27 AM   #13
Benzerellie
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Thanks for time in the chat room everyone, sorry I bailed without saying goodbye. The Sub has actually been helping me sleep better, I fall asleep earlier and seem to get up earlier which is great for my shift..I actually dozed of during chat on Sun
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Unread 12-10-2009, 02:27 PM   #14
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You were right Nancy, my freind was mistaken and the program his doctor is making mandatory is the Here To Help program, he did say something about a workbook that they send you when you sign up on the the Sub website, which I have not found. I am doing better and stabilized at 16mg per day, I was having alot of cravings in the evenings..but I am sleeping much better and feel like everything is more a routine again which feels great. My brother, who is 19 has been fighting the same addiction to opiates like myself. He has tried Sub before and relapsed, he was doing the pods and making tea..then he got into H. He is currently on Kolonopin and is worried that they won't taper him, he has already tried to quit and had a seizure. I've recently convinced him to get back on Sub and get in therapy. He has an appt. today at 11am. Please say a prayer for him..See you all tonight in chat.

Last edited by Benzerellie; 12-10-2009 at 02:38 PM..
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Unread 12-10-2009, 04:11 PM   #15
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Hi Benzerellie, that's interesting that he's making the program mandatory. I guess he figures that it's helpful for people.

I'm glad you've stabilized and are doing better. Are the cravings still there, or have you figured out a way to distract yourself from them?

Your brother might be interested in this site about benzos, it has a ton of good information, including info about tapering.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/

That's great you were able to talk him into trying Suboxone again. You're a good sister. I wish him good luck today!

'See' you later.

Nancy
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Unread 12-10-2009, 04:35 PM   #16
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Apparently my brother has to wait until Jan. 5 before he can get on subs again due to patient limits. I'm really frustrated that people who really need and want help have to wait!!!!! Such BS
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Unread 12-10-2009, 05:15 PM   #17
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Government meddling does much harm to those who seek this form of treatment. That any doctor may prescribe all meds but two makes no sense. Some states go so far as to legislate dosage caps makes as much sense as some judge or administrator making scientific pronouncements. Still, we have many citizens and liberal politicians clamoring for increased control. The only persons I want involved with my care are myself, my doctors, and medical personnel. Imposing the will of bureaucrats into that mix can only lead to decreased quality of care.
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Unread 12-10-2009, 05:36 PM   #18
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Yeah!!! What toms said..
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Unread 12-10-2009, 05:44 PM   #19
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When I began methadone, I read the statement that "methadone is more regulated than nuclear waste". I found that to be true. If I could get methadone the same way I get suboxone, I would never have switched. It is highly-effective, and quite inexpensive. Every problem I experienced was due to the clinic system, not the drug. All of us who are on ORT have experienced first-hand how government meddling in health care is, The thought of this spreading to our entire system is horrific!
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Unread 12-10-2009, 06:18 PM   #20
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Hi Benzerellie, Oh no!! Are there any other doctors around? Can he get on a cancellation list?

The restrictions on this treatment is mind boggling.

Nancy
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Unread 12-10-2009, 06:42 PM   #21
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Unfortunatly there aren't any more doctors aval. near him. He lives 2 hours away from me and when I use the zip locator and choose within 20 miles, I get more than 20 doctors available. I guess living closer to the Capital of my state has paid off for me..I'm about ready to move his *ss up here with me so he can get the help he needs but I don't have the room and I'm also dealing with my own issues...=(
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Unread 12-10-2009, 08:18 PM   #22
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Hi again, did he try the matching system? Oftentimes there are doctors participating there who opt to not be publicly listed.

https://www.naabt.org/patient_doctor/patient_login.cfm

Nancy
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Unread 12-10-2009, 09:19 PM   #23
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I forwarded that link to him, idk if he registered there...Thank you
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Unread 12-18-2009, 04:08 PM   #24
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30 days clean today!!! Woot Woot
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Unread 12-18-2009, 04:55 PM   #25
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Congratulations Benzerellie!!

Fabulous!

Nancy
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Unread 12-19-2009, 10:40 PM   #26
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Congratulations Benzerellie!! That's wonderful...and I will pray for your brother.
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Unread 12-20-2009, 11:49 AM   #27
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congratulations!!!!! Isn't it wonderful not to crave or be SICK. Dec 18th was three months for me..*i must stop typing in the dark*.....Benzerelle your doing wonderful and I know the support from the people here help so much, what a wonderful bunch of people from EVERYWHERE. No stigma here, we accept unconditionally, and love the same!!!! Have a happy and safe, holy Christmas, enjoy your recovery, it's the best gift

quote: Helen Keller
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Unread 12-20-2009, 12:48 PM   #28
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30 days clean today!!! Woot Woot
I just became a member here. Just to get this right, when people here say clean and sober do they mean "CLEAN AND SOBER FROM DRUGS AND ALCOHOL" or clean from everything but Suboxone? I ask this cuz I was on methadone, came off it very slowly over a two year period after being on it for 4 years, 6 years all together. I finally got off and I was in the right frame of mind, working out, working everyday and I was able to quit and stay off the methadone for months and I was in tears cuz I was so happy. Like an idiot, I took a few percs here and there after about 4 months of being clean. Then I was kinda hooked physically again and a PERSON suggested I take a piece of a Suboxone. It was about a 2mg piece. I got so so so so high from that it was insane. Then I got into an accident that night cuz I blacked out. Totaled my car and all. My point? To say you are CLEAN and SOBER and be on suboxone treatment is a HUGE lie to yourself. It is a very, very strong and SUPER LONG acting opiate. Tired, sex problems, dry mouth, etc... That isnt being clean people.. Better than street drugs but FAR FAR FAR FAR from clean..
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Unread 12-20-2009, 12:55 PM   #29
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Apparently my brother has to wait until Jan. 5 before he can get on subs again due to patient limits. I'm really frustrated that people who really need and want help have to wait!!!!! Such BS
It does suck but the sad thing is when you put your recovery into the hands of others, doctors included, stuff happens. The mental aspect of drug abuse is way way way to overlooked. People want to go from drug use to being normal but want to change their lives as little as possible. You need to change EVERYTHING. What you eat, who you associate with, work on deep rooted problems with a professional mental health person, excercise, etc.. I AM NOT KNOCKING SUBOXONE.. Just don't kid yourselves that it is the be all end all happy ending. It too is an opiate and VERY addictive. More time research needs to be put into the understranding of an addicts mind rather than pills that just replace the illegal substance..
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Unread 12-20-2009, 01:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by xepman View Post
I just became a member here. Just to get this right, when people here say clean and sober do they mean "CLEAN AND SOBER FROM DRUGS AND ALCOHOL" or clean from everything but Suboxone? I ask this cuz I was on methadone, came off it very slowly over a two year period after being on it for 4 years, 6 years all together. I finally got off and I was in the right frame of mind, working out, working everyday and I was able to quit and stay off the methadone for months and I was in tears cuz I was so happy. Like an idiot, I took a few percs here and there after about 4 months of being clean. Then I was kinda hooked physically again and a PERSON suggested I take a piece of a Suboxone. It was about a 2mg piece. I got so so so so high from that it was insane. Then I got into an accident that night cuz I blacked out. Totaled my car and all. My point? To say you are CLEAN and SOBER and be on suboxone treatment is a HUGE lie to yourself. It is a very, very strong and SUPER LONG acting opiate. Tired, sex problems, dry mouth, etc... That isnt being clean people.. Better than street drugs but FAR FAR FAR FAR from clean..
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It does suck but the sad thing is when you put your recovery into the hands of others, doctors included, stuff happens. The mental aspect of drug abuse is way way way to overlooked. People want to go from drug use to being normal but want to change their lives as little as possible. You need to change EVERYTHING. What you eat, who you associate with, work on deep rooted problems with a professional mental health person, excercise, etc.. I AM NOT KNOCKING SUBOXONE.. Just don't kid yourselves that it is the be all end all happy ending. It too is an opiate and VERY addictive. More time research needs to be put into the understranding of an addicts mind rather than pills that just replace the illegal substance..

The people here are using medication assisted treatment, prescribed by a doctor to treat their addiction to opioids. We suggest people avoid using stigmatizing terms like clean/dirty because it distracts from the real issue of stopping the dangerous addictive behavior. Drug war terms were developed before modern medical interventions were available, and are now obsolete and create confusion. The status of Clean/dirty is not important, ending the damaging addictive behavior is what matters and with vast majority of buprenorphine patients that ends almost immediately after stabilizing and continues through the treatment as they make important life changes that does the actual healing and allows them to become addiction-free, because that’s what matters.

You seem to be under the false assumption that patients utilizing medication-assisted treatment are relying only on the medication and that couldn’t be more wrong. Buprenorphine patients are taught early on, in the education process, that the medication is only a small part of the treatment, it only sets the stage for recovery and changes in patterns of behavior is the only way to achieve sustained addiction remission and enter a medication-free stage of treatment.

Congratulations on 30 days of addiction remission!

Tim
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Unread 12-20-2009, 01:40 PM   #31
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... It too is an opiate and VERY addictive. ....
Although buprenorphine is an opioid, it is very different than other opioids. So different, in fact that it doesn’t come up when drug testing for other opioids. Bupe is a partial agonist, which means it only stimulates the opioid receptors partially, enough to stop cravings and withdrawal but not enough to cause the addicting euphoria. This explains it in better detail:

Is buprenorphine addictive?

Although there is the potential for addiction to buprenorphine, the risk is low. Few people develop the dangerous uncontrollable compulsion to buprenorphine that we know as addiction. Buprenorphine will maintain some of a patient's existing physical dependence to opioids but that is manageable and can be resolved with a gradual taper once the patient is ready.

Amazingly despite 100% of people being treated for addiction with buprenorphine have demonstrated that they have a greater vulnerability to opioid addiction than the average person, very few become addicted to the buprenorphine, meaning very few lose control of their medication intake, nor experience uncontrollable compulsions and cravings toward the buprenorphine.

People can become addicted to anything that causes pleasure; consider gambling, sex, food, and internet. There is even a condition where patients drink so much water they dilute their blood, causing some level of intoxication (hyponatremia). They are addicted to this behavior, although water is not considered addictive. Substances and activities all have some potential addiction liability. Many factors including genetics and environment contribute to someone’s potential of becoming addicted

The brain has a natural reward system that helps us to learn that things that cause pleasure are good and should be repeated. This helps our species survive by reinforcing the desire for food and sex. These activities initiate a biochemical sequence and release dopamine in the brain. This feels good and is reinforced when repeated. Some substances can trick the brain and initiate the same biochemical sequence, but to a greater and unnatural degree. The brain senses this activity as the most pleasurable and hence the most necessary for survival, and creates a memory of the activity and cravings for more. The cycle reinforces itself and can lead to addiction (uncontrollable dangerous compulsive behavior)

Research has shown that substances that reach the brain faster have a higher potential for addiction. Also substances that provide a stronger effect cause more reinforcement. This begins a cycle of euphoria then craving then euphoria, craving and so on. Each time the cycle completes it reinforces a memory in the brain, the more frequent the cycle the more reinforcing.

The potential for addiction has to do with 3 main things, the speed of the onset, the level of reinforcement (pleasure), and the duration of action. IV heroin, is fast acting, strong euphoria, short duration. This gives it a high potential for addiction. Drugs with short intense cycles provide more potential for addiction than drugs with long “flatter” cycles.

Buprenorphine has a slow onset, mild effect, and long duration, which puts it at some risk of being addictive, more than water, but less than full agonist opioids, like heroin, morphine, oxycodone, and hydrocodone.

In countries where only Subutex is available (buprenorphine without the naloxone safeguard added), some people have injected their buprenorphine, thus decreasing the onset time and increasing euphoria, this in turn increased the potential for addiction and thus more people became addicted to it. The risk of addiction is less when taken sublingually as directed.


Further reading: Drug delivery methods, ranking addiction potential.
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Unread 12-20-2009, 01:40 PM   #32
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... and a PERSON suggested I take a piece of a Suboxone. It was about a 2mg piece. I got so so so so high from that it was insane. Then I got into an accident that night cuz I blacked out. Totaled my car and all. My point? To say you are CLEAN and SOBER and be on suboxone treatment is a HUGE lie to yourself. It is a very, very strong and SUPER LONG acting opiate......
Sorry to hear about your accident. There is no way of knowing for sure if you even took buprenorphine. Buying drugs off the streets is dangerous because you never know what you are getting. A few months ago a pharmacology research student bought and injected what she thought was buprenorphine bought from an online pharmacy. She died and the medical examiner showed that there wasn’t buprenorphine in her system at all. People with some tolerance to opioids usually notice little effect from small doses of buprenorphine (unless taken too soon) which suggests that you might not have actually got buprenorphine.

Buprenorphine is relatively strong, at low doses, but as you approach the ceiling it becomes less and less potent. Once the ceiling is reached there are no noticeable increased effects. People dosed correctly and with sufficient tolerance experience little to no subjective effect from the medication. Most people describe the feeling as a return to normal. By not being under a doctor’s care when you took what might have been buprenorphine, you introduced a number of variables that may have contributed to your abnormal reaction to buprenorphine.

I understand your position based on your experience, but it isn’t representative of the vast majority of buprenorphine patients. I also agree that patients shouldn’t use clean/dirty to describe their disease status but for different reasons.



Tim
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Unread 12-20-2009, 02:19 PM   #33
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Just because buprenorphine may have affected you strongly does not justify your statement about the sobriety of others. A patient who is properly maintained experiences no limitations on their physical or mental status, regardless of their dose. I used to be called a liar when I told people my methadone was 270mg/day...."you'd be comatose." This kind of thinking is false. We learn that "we cannot compare our insides to another individuals outside."
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Unread 12-24-2009, 06:14 PM   #34
xepman
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It was suboxone, 100% because I know the person that this was from has a prescription. On top of that, they are the exact pills that are shown if you do a simple search on google. It was suboxone, 100% sure of that.
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Unread 12-24-2009, 06:35 PM   #35
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Tim, I agree 100% with your response, but I believe it is a waste of time to try to convince someone that suboxne was the reason for her problem when she bought it off the street and has never been prescribed it. If she/he did they wouldn't make such ignorant comments. I think they come on these boards just to try and incite somethingk knowing full well that we will get angry when they try to justify the stigma we are trying so hard to fix. Xepman, so if I took an asprin and put in an percocet bottle, would that guarantee it was percocet? And the internet is great but before I take any pills I think I'll have my doctor or pharmacist tell me about it, not some web page.
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Unread 12-25-2009, 01:26 PM   #36
suboxfreedom
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Is buprenorphine addictive?
"In countries where only Subutex is available (buprenorphine without the naloxone safeguard added), some people have injected their buprenorphine, thus decreasing the onset time and increasing euphoria, this in turn increased the potential for addiction and thus more people became addicted to it"

=====================

I'm sure you know Buprenorphine [alone] is available in the US. I've read the issue of injecting elsewhere but have not seen a post or talked with anyone who actually mainlined Bupe and got a rush. I wonder if this is really true based on the antagonist properties in Bupe. I know it's a highly political drug and worry about propaganda from both pharmacy companies and govt.

Sometimes I wonder if this [injecting issue] could this be used mostly as justification to add naloxone to an already partial agonist/antagonist drug lke bupe??

I'm sure those who are non dependent on opiates can get high on bupe... but for how long [before brain receptors adapt] can they do this... and to what extent. From my own experience... while on 1mg, I took 8mg and felt nothing. I'm on .25mg now but I'm not interested in seeing if larger dose will bring on a high.

Anyway that is probably not a good discussion topic here...
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Unread 12-25-2009, 02:19 PM   #37
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There are many who claim that the nalaxone has no effect, something I wouldn't want to prove. I hate to hear of folks abusing the medication, it is SO nice having it be CIII and easily-obtainable. I imagine there are people who would like to see more regulations piled on, and tales of abuse can only provide justification for doing so. IMO, abusing the two meds we have available for ORT is a practice to be discouraged.
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Unread 01-24-2010, 08:55 PM   #38
x0brittay0x
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starting on suboxine is really good you will have a better chance of not going back to using if you have a "cruch" i am 17 and if it was not for suboxine i could have not went through it at all. just stick with what the doctor tells you to do and you will be fine.
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Unread 01-25-2010, 10:35 AM   #39
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Welcome, xObrittayOx, I'm sure there is a story behind that name! You said a lot in that paragraph. I imagine a whole lot of people that consider suboxone to be a "crutch" would never use that word to describe any other medication. They simply don't understand.
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