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Unread 12-18-2008, 09:31 PM   #1
freshstart76
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Default Very sick to stomach with the shakes...

maybe i'm just not taking enough. i am taking about 1 - 1/2 8mg pill a day. dox told me take 2 but i am just trying to get by with as little of the drug as possible. Is naloxone said to cause nausea? when i let it dissolve under my tongue i always manage to swallow a little on accident.

tks guys.
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Unread 12-18-2008, 09:43 PM   #2
NancyB
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Hi freshstart76, the naloxone is clinically insignificant. Not much is absorbed under the tongue or in the GI tract.

Do you have any other symptoms that might be WDs?

One thing you should do is to check your pupils in regular light to see if they're dilated or not. Or if there's someone there not taking opioids, check yours against theirs in regular light. Let us know.

Nancy
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Unread 12-18-2008, 10:57 PM   #3
follydad
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I puked my guts out for 2 days at 16mg. Dropped to 4-6mg and felt tremendous, too good, in fact. I guess everyone is different, but as a 50-100mg/day Lortab guy, I thought Sub was EXTREMELY strong. When I found that ideal dose, I felt better than euphoric. You just feel great, clear-headed, sharp, alert, relaxed, and basically at peace in every way. From that vantage point you can really look at your life. If I didn't take a bunch of other meds, I might have considered staying on it for life.
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Unread 12-19-2008, 02:33 PM   #4
freshstart76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by follydad View Post
I puked my guts out for 2 days at 16mg. Dropped to 4-6mg and felt tremendous, too good, in fact. I guess everyone is different, but as a 50-100mg/day Lortab guy, I thought Sub was EXTREMELY strong. When I found that ideal dose, I felt better than euphoric. You just feel great, clear-headed, sharp, alert, relaxed, and basically at peace in every way. From that vantage point you can really look at your life. If I didn't take a bunch of other meds, I might have considered staying on it for life.



hey nancy, hey folly..thanks for the replies and your help. started with 2mg this morning and so far so good!. i was on a 60 - 70mg daily hydro intake before i started sub, so its pretty similar to you folly. well, going to teach some tennis, i will post tonight on how i feel!
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Unread 12-24-2008, 01:53 AM   #5
smokey321
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Hello all,
What most dont understand is....
with suboxone you will still go through a strong case of WD (bathroom trips, vomiting, mucus, the shakes, chills etc...) I tried to stop after being on it for several months and i made it through 6 days and i seriously thought i was going to die from vomiting until blood came out. What was weird about it was that the wd didnt start until the third day and then all hell broke loose..
I been to forums, group meetings, online chats etc and most will say..."oh you tried to stop to early".....or "your not suppose to stop cold turkey" etc...
Well the point of it all is that i want to be totally drug free like i use to be before i started taking Hydros...
I am so thankful to suboxone because i have been clean for several months now but im also upset that NOBODY told me that i would get dependant on suboxone....i get off of one drug and then get attached to another....On the sixth day i went to my doctors in horrible shape and he tells me that i wasnt supposeto just stop and i asked him what is suppose to happen after i get wheened off of sub.... he told me that there would be another drug to take called gabapentin or something like that..but when i idid a search on that drug....it shows it used for seizures and all kinds of other medical conditions....
I have noticed alot of folks will dodge this issues (sub wd) and try to get u to focus on the good of the drug....it will help you .....but folks need to wake up and see that their is another problem that still needs to be solved.....i wrote a letter to the manufacturer and still havent heard anything back yet......
THE GOOD:
** yes this drug will help you
** you will feel better than you did taking any hydro,oxy or other drugs
** you do feel normal UNTIL YOU DECIDE TO STOP TAKING SUB
** you will have your life back
** ALOT MORE GOOD THINGS
THE BAD::::
* VERY EXPENSIVE
* DR VISIT VERY COSTLY
* SEEMS LIKE DR DONT CARE ABOUT YOU
* VERY VERY ADDICTING
* SEVERE WITHDRAWALS
* HARD TO FIND INFO ON HOW TO EFFICIENTLY STOP TAKING THE DRUG
* DR AND OTHERS WILL AVOID THIS ISSUES LIKE THE PLAGUE.
* MANY MANY MORE

So basically its up to al to asked many questions and please use this drug as prescribed and remember its a crutch to help you regain your life back....
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Unread 12-24-2008, 02:41 AM   #6
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corrections: the drug is called naltrexone.....
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Unread 12-24-2008, 09:36 AM   #7
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Hi smokey321, I'm sorry that your doctor didn't tell you that Suboxone is an opiate – a partial opioid agonist – that one will continue their physical dependence with. Most (there are exceptions such as people who have been addiction and medication-free but risk relapse) people are already dependent on opioids when they start Suboxone, so that is continued.

Most people do not become addicted to Suboxone. Addiction is different than physical dependence. Addiction the behavior – uncontrollable compulsive behavior despite negative circumstances. Most people are able to take their medication and then forget about it.

As for severe withdrawals, most literature warns about stopping Suboxone abruptly, for example:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...s/a605002.html
"Do not stop taking buprenorphine and naloxone without talking to your doctor. Stopping buprenorphine and naloxone too quickly can cause withdrawal symptoms. Your doctor will tell you when and how to stop taking buprenorphine and naloxone."

We have 30+ people here (that we know of) who have had successfully tapered off with little problem: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16678
And a whole forum of tapering concerns:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=16678

If someone feels that their doctor isn't providing adequate care, then it is up to the patient to remedy that situation by finding another doctor.

Prices for doctor visits vary alot. I've seen them as low as $50 per monthly visit and as high as $400+ for monthly visits. That's generally consistent with the supply/demand of the area. Again, it pays to call around and look for a doctor who meets both care and financial criteria.

Suboxone is only a tool in the treatment of opioid addiction. Taking the medication alone generally does not constitute treatment. Other tools must be utilized such as peer support (AA/NA/Smart/CR, online peer support like is provided here), professional one-on-one therapy, family/friend support, etc. Suboxone is just a tool in the addiction treatment toolbox.

The medication is going generic in October of 2009, so that will help with the cost.

Most of all, we strongly encourage patient education. The more a patient knows about the medication they are taking and disease they are facing, the better the outcome.

The medication you mentioned, would it be neurontin? That is prescribed for seizures whereas naltrexone is prescribe for either alcohol dependence or opioid addiction.

Neurontin: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...s/a694007.html
Naltrexone: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...s/a685041.html

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience in stopping. I hope you're doing ok now.

Nancy
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Unread 12-24-2008, 03:37 PM   #8
TIM
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Smokey321,

The problem you point out already has a solution, and that is a slow and gradual taper off of the medication, but only at the appropriate time.

Just about everyone in studies and on this board who have discontinued buprenorphine experienced comparatively mild withdrawal symptoms. People who discontinued buprenorphine against medical advice by stopping too soon or tapering too fast experienced more withdrawal, as is expected. Because buprenorphine is only a partial agonist it does not produce the same levels of physical dependence as full agonists do, so the withdrawal profile is milder. It can still be significant and uncomfortable when not tapered properly, but still less than with full agonists.

You mentioned that it was “weird” that your withdrawal didn’t start for 3 days. That is predicted in the science, expected and normal for anyone discontinuing treatment abruptly as you did.

You said “Well the point of it all is that i want to be totally drug free like i use to be before i started taking Hydros...” Addiction is a disease, which means it alters the brain from its normal healthy state. Without any medication the compromised brain produces withdrawal symptoms. Although we wish we could just stop and be back to normal without any medication it is an unrealistic expectation. Just like someone with diabetes would like to be back the way they were without any medication it isn’t always realistic. But like addiction with change in behavior some diabetes patients may be able to reach a point where they no longer require medication. But stopping treatment before they reach that point will cause a reoccurrence of symptoms, not unlike addiction.

I think you are confused about being “dependent”. Do you realize that you were already physically dependent on opioids before starting bupe? This dependence preexisted the bupe and was not caused by it. It is also important to understand that physical dependence is not what the treatment is aimed at. It is aimed at addiction. Without understand the difference there is no way to reconcile why buprenorphine treatment is not switching one addiction for another. Here is a detailed explanation:

Difference between physical dependence (normal) and addiction (abnormal)

Also, buprenorphine is NOT “very addictive” as you mentioned. It actually has a relatively low addiction potential when administered sublingually, as directed. See:
Is buprenorphine addictive?

To find out more about buprenorhine treatment see www.naabt.org

Throughout the 3 years this forum has existed, weÂ’ve seen a common theme. Those people who become educated about the treatment and addiction have a better overall experience than those who donÂ’t. It also appears to be proportionate, those who educate themselves more have a better experience than those who only educate themselves a little, but any education helps the outcome.

Education helps by creating realistic expectations and prevents common mistakes like tapering too fast or too soon, or realizing solely on the medication and not engaging in the more important life changing behaviors that will ultimately help you to recondition your brain from an addicted brain back closer to a normal brain.

Be careful not to let your desire to be “drug free” over shadow what is really important, being “addiction free”

Tim
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 12-25-2008, 02:10 AM   #9
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Tim,
I want to clarify some things here....
I used the wrong terminology when i wrote my post....your right the proper word should of been "dependant" ...
Again. I see the defending of the drug.....I know how i feel and i know what it did to me. I went through six days of pain, nausea, chills etc.... I went through the proper tapering and i was only 3 days short before i was suppose to go back to the dr to start this other drug he wanted to put me on...Naltrexone....
I want to say this very clearly first:
I appreciate the website and the forum and all the hard word nancy and the others put into helping total strangers...i applaud all that help...But.....
what bothers me is the way you and some others seem to come to great defense when someone writes a post especially something negative about the drug .....if a total stranger was to come in here and just start reading, he or she might come to the conclusion that you and some others might have a interest in suboxone.....
Even though i may of come up short in being clear in what i was trying to say, i could only say what was on my mind and how i felt....When someone post something you have to keep in mind this drug may effect others totally differnt that what you may have read or what he mfg states or what science has predicted.
FOr the folks who have taken the drug and followed the taper down and still became ill and went through serious withdrawals....and then come out very confused because folks on the forum make them feel like their crazy and its all in their mind and they shouldnt be feeling like that cause literature says its does this and does that......or they shouldnt of stopped......
IF THIS DRUG IS SO GREAT AND NOT AS BAD AS OXY,HYDRO,PERCOCETS........WHY CANT A PERSON JUST STOP??? OR WHY DOES IT AFFECT YOU SO BAD WHEN YOU ABRUPTLY JUST STOP? I know its a opiate ....
"Because buprenorphine is only a partial agonist it does not produce the same levels of physical dependence as full agonists do, so the withdrawal profile is milder. It can still be significant and uncomfortable when not tapered properly, but still less than with full agonists."
** This angers me alot, for the simple fact the WD was no different than a full agonist....im pretty sure many will agree that there is no differnce what so ever.....
I dont know if you have taken this drug or been dependant on hydrocodone....but the withdrawals are NO different...and from reading many other forums....the buprenorphine seems to have a longer half life than hydrocodone.....
but after reading so many post i dont know what to believe anymore....i know one thing....im scared....very scared....but all the mumbo jumbo stuff most ppl who are in dire needs dont wanna hear.....they dont want to know what others have read ...they want to know what folks have experienced...and how they did it etc....
that is why this forum is so great because folks like me and others write real true life thoughts and feelings and dont sugarcoat it by telling ppl what the drug is SUPPOSE to do or how its SUPPOSE to make you feel.
you spoke on education...yes education will only get you half way there....experience will get you the other half.....and until some folks have experienced what we as addicts are going through then they will never know...
I am very happy i stopped taking opiates and it feels good to be drug free from that....but only time will tell how suboxone works.....i recieved the info packet that was sent to me from "naabt" very informative......
I know a woman who completed the whole program and completed the taper down process....and then it came time to stop ....she almost ended up in the ER because the WD was so horrible.....two (2) Dr couldnt understand why this happened and even contacted the MFG to fnd out more information....on how to helpt this patient...she is back on 2mg suboxone ....they wanted her to restart the whole program again.....instead she is just taking the 2mg dosage....actually she is only taking 1mg a day ....until she hears back from the dr.....
btw....that woman happens to be my wife of 18yrs....

Merry Christmas to all....

Nancy thanks for the reply...and thanks so much for your hard work ....
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Unread 12-25-2008, 04:33 PM   #10
freshstart76
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well smokey, i started the taper about 4 days after my first dose. i dont think that sub should be taken liberally. i think it should be taken on a "enough to get by" basis. This way i feel the WD's when you come off will be much more tolerable.

just my 2 cents.
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Unread 12-26-2008, 11:58 AM   #11
smokey321
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I agree freshstart...........so you started tapering down 4 days after your first dose? ....wow.....thats fast....i hear there is a 21 day window before supposely the drug reacts..........who knows though....good luck freshstart
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Unread 12-26-2008, 12:16 PM   #12
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Hey smokey321, don't know where you heard that 21-day stuff, but the sub starts working like 20 minutes after you take it. It takes about a week to stabilize your dose when you start, but there's nothing anywhere I knew about for 21 days.

Yup, the best amount is the least that stops cravings/WDs. I did the a one-year gig after about 20 years of H. Worked for me.

-Mary
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Unread 12-26-2008, 12:52 PM   #13
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Smokey321,
I understand that you are upset that your experience didn’t match your expectation, and I also don’t doubt you experienced exactly what you have described.

Most of the people in the studies had less withdrawal and most of the actual people who posted their experience here had less withdrawal. Don’t you think its odd that the studies indicate less withdrawal and all of the experiences on this board (of people who used the medication correctly) also reported less withdrawal?

There’s a reason you experienced what you did, wouldn’t you like to find out why and correct it? Aren’t you interested in knowing why you perceive your experience so differently from the majority of the people in the studies around the world and the other experiences here? Do you think all of the scientists are wrong, the studies were flawed, the people’s experiences here are lies, and all of the 1,000,000 plus people who have used buprenorphine actually had terrible experiences that for some reason remain hidden from the media and the FDA? Don’t you think it is possible that your procedure or expectations may have been flawed? If there is a scientific reason why you experienced what you did wouldn’t you like to know?

Maybe you are an anomaly still unknown to science and buprenorophine causes more physical dependence with you than with everyone else, I don’t know, it’s possible. But from your post it looks like you tapered too fast and experienced exactly what would have been expected. Can you give us the details of your addiction history and treatment, including taper schedule and doses? Maybe someone will be able to identify why your experience was as it was.

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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 12-26-2008, 01:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey321 View Post
I agree freshstart...........so you started tapering down 4 days after your first dose? ....wow.....thats fast....i hear there is a 21 day window before supposely the drug reacts..........who knows though....good luck freshstart
21 days for the drug to react is a myth. There is absolutely nothing to support this except misunderstanding. I think this evolves from the fundamental misunderstanding of what causes withdrawal. If someone is under the false impression that the drug leaving the body is causing the withdrawal, then that could lead them to mistakenly assume that when starting buprenorphine treatment they are ending a physical dependence and addiction to full agonists and becoming physically dependent or addicted to the treatment medication. This isnÂ’t the case. The body remains physically dependent to opioids the entire transition. The brain doesnÂ’t know it has switched opioids. There is a special protocol for the few people who start buprenorphine treatment who are not already physically dependent on opioids, this might add to the confusion and help create the 21 day myth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey321
“…the buprenorphine seems to have a longer half life than hydrocodone.....but after reading so many post i dont know what to believe anymore..”
Buprenorphine does have a longer half life than hydrocodone, this is a fact, not up for debate, proven beyond any doubt. What did you read that confused you about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey321
“IF THIS DRUG IS SO GREAT AND NOT AS BAD AS OXY,HYDRO,PERCOCETS........WHY CANT A PERSON JUST STOP??? OR WHY DOES IT AFFECT YOU SO BAD WHEN YOU ABRUPTLY JUST STOP?”
To understand the answer you have to first understand what causes withdrawal. Withdrawal is a symptom of brain adaptations. These are physical changes to the brain caused by addiction and physical dependence. At first buprenorphine just suppresses these symptoms while the brain changes remain. If you stop suppressing the symptoms, obviously the symptoms reemerge. If you pull a Band-Aid off a wound that hasnÂ’t healed yet, it will bleed, but that doesnÂ’t mean Band-Aids cause bleeding, and thatÂ’s the logic you are applying toward buprenorphine. If you stop the buprenorphine abruptly and too soon, you stop suppressing the symptoms. If you remain in treatment and make the appropriate changes in your life, you will slowly recondition your brain and undo some of the changes caused by addiction. Once that phase is complete a slow and gradual taper off of the medication will remedy the remaining physical dependence, and minimize the acute withdrawal. If you donÂ’t make changes while in treatment, taper too fast, or too soon, you will have withdrawal because the brain changes that existed before beginning treatment still remain, so they will cause symptoms when the bupe isnÂ’t there to suppress them. Some people have such severe addictions they will never be able to reverse the brain changes enough to be comfortable without medication. In short, if your taper outpaces your brainÂ’s healing rate, you will experience withdrawal symptoms.

Full agonists like hydrocodone, donÂ’t have a ceiling and will continue to increase a personÂ’s tolerance which will make compulsive drug seeking more and more of a problem instead of less and less as with buprenorphine. Buprenorphine is better for treatment of addiction because, at the right dose, it suppresses cravings and withdrawal, protects against overdose, blocks other opioids. All of this allows the patient to do the actual work of reconditioning the brain that will permanently keep the addiction in remission.
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Important disclaimer: Any information in this post is not and does not constitute medical advice under any circumstances. Addiction Survivors, Inc. does not warranty or guarantee the accurateness, completeness, adequacy or currency of the information contained in or linked to the Site. Your use of information on the Site or materials linked to the Site is entirely at your own risk. Voluntary Disclosure: Timothy L. is the President of The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine treatment. (NAABT.org) The views and opinions of Timothy L., or any poster, are not necessarily the views of AddictionSurvivors.org. NEVER take any online advice over that of a qualified healthcare provider Any information you read here should only serve to inspire you to investigate further with credible, verifiable referenced sources or your doctor.
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Unread 12-26-2008, 05:22 PM   #15
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Tim,
Are you a former addict? user? every been addicted or dependant on any of these drugs? very curious

BTW......i read that 21 days a few times in the forum...never believed it for one sec...... .......
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Unread 12-26-2008, 06:17 PM   #16
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When we stared NAABT we decided not to talk about any of our personal experiences. I didn’t want anything NAABT stands for to be a reflection of any single individual. Also, since I’m not afforded the anonymity as others, I make it a policy not to discuss or reference my personal experiences, nor is any NAABT content based on any one individual’s experience.

I’ve heard people say “if the scientists weren’t addicted themselves they can’t know what it’s like” and that leads to total dismissal of all their work. First, how does anyone know they weren’t addicted themselves? No one has any data to know either way, and therefore no basis to reject the science even if it was believed the only valid addiction science comes from addicted scientists. What if that standard was held to other diseases? Is the only valid AIDS research come form scientists with AIDS? Should we discount all scientific developments for treating cancer from scientists who test negative for cancer themselves…because after all they couldn’t possibly understand it without walking in those shoes?

Individual experiences is worthless information without knowing the associated variables, that’s why we have studies and value them so much. Two people could take the same medication one could use it one way and have a good outcome one could use it another way and have a bad outcome. Without knowing how each person used it there is no way to know if it works or not. That is why studies are so important, they limit the variables. The scientific studies ARE personal experiences of real people, but the variables have been limited so the treatment can be evaluated without the data being corrupted by someone not following protocol

I’m not defending the drug, I’m the first one to say it isn’t right for everyone. I’m defending the existing body of evidence from misconceptions that might cause someone to avoid a medication that could save their life. Had you said “counseling or peer support is no good” I would have defending that too. People need to make lifesaving decisions based on as much fact as possible and as little misconception, myth and stigma as possible. People die everyday because they did not receive treatments that could save their lives. I want everyone to be aware of buprenorphine, arm them with real facts and help them find a doctor so they can determine if this is something that will help them.


Tim
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Unread 12-26-2008, 08:21 PM   #17
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hmmmm very interesting........
thanks for the info and again im pretty sure there are alot of folks in here who appreciate your work your doing.
So its fair to say that majority of information you pass on to others is from reading and also information you might have gathered from the mfg, drs and others sources?
I first want to say thanks for all the folks that dedicate their time and efforts on this site and supporting total strangers who are in dire needs like myself. i remember being in my darkest moments and very sick from wd from lortabs and i stumbled accross this site. the chat forums here are awesome and nancy and the others do a wonderful job.
but im going to be very frank and speak my mind...
im pretty sure there are some very intelligent folks on this forum and who through one thing or another in their life made them run across these drugs (lortabs,methadone,perco...etc) ...wether it was a injury or something else etc...
I wouldnt doubt for two minutes there are folks who are capable of understanding the words "addiction or Dependant" ......
I have read almost every one of your 3000+ post and i came to my own conclusion and i will keep that to myself.....
but you have to remember most that come to a wonderful place like this forum are most likely in their darkest moments..... they are reaching out to hear how ppl who are experiencing the same thing, symptoms etc...
the long information you provide can be overbaring for some who are just seeking out a solution on jus how to make it through the night to sleep.....
I could careless about studies, reports and manufacture claims on what this drug is suppose to do....I know what it has done to me and i know what it will do to me if i decide to stop taking it.........
i think sometimes you miss the point.........when i asked why cant we just stop taking the drug without going through all the wd..........as much as u and others may defend it .....it almost makes ppl like myself feel like im stuck in a cycle....i leave one drug and now im on another........when ppl ask that question..." is sub the same as Hydro"? is see a long and drawn out medical literature response on how its not.......a defense.......
Well guess what.....as a person who was dependant on hydrocodones.......its exactly the same trait as it is with suboxone....to me........this is my oppinion....just because the chemical break down isnt the same......i still feel the same only wheni go through the withdrawals...after stoping........i know i know .....the studies says.....blah blah blah.....
but folks who try suboxone like myself will get the wrong idea and think they are in the clear of being addicted to pain pills.............but they are suprised to find out they just cant stop taking suboxone.....until the day you go through what i went through for 6 days and can relate to my pain....
this is just my two cents...
and before anyone gets upset at me for saying all this i rather you email me and ask me to clarify on what i was trying to say than waste everyones times to bash me....
cause im not bashing tim......he does a good job with the wealth of information some may be seeking...........
thankis again to this site...
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Unread 12-27-2008, 12:40 AM   #18
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I don't really understand what the issue is.

Tim explained why/how Buprenorphine is different from other opiates.

The vast majority of people will have WD from quitting any opiate (or many other drugs) your body is physically dependent on. You say that regardless of the literature that Sub is essentially the same as other opiates because you went through WD after stopping the drug abruptly. The statement regarding Sub being the same as hydro (etc) is incorrect. While in your particular case there may be more serious WD issues with Sub. A slow taper with Sub will be less "painful" than a slow taper from Hydro. You can taper off ANY opiate if you have enough willpower and ability to withstand pain and discomfort. However, due to the particular nature of Buprenorphine, one can taper slowly off the drug without experiencing serious WD discomfort.

Quote:
I know what it has done to me and i know what it will do to me if i decide to stop taking it
. Suboxone did not do this to your the Hydrocodone did. Tim explained why and how your brain changed during the time you used Hydro. Suboxone does not "cure" the changes made by Hydro, it allows your body (brain) to slowly return back to the way it was before you started using your DOC. It does this in the manner which Tim described.

Quote:
when i asked why cant we just stop taking the drug without going through all the wd..........as much as u and others may defend it .....it almost makes ppl like myself feel like im stuck in a cycle
You are not stuck in a cycle you are at the end of the opiate use cycle. The ending portion of the opiate cycle takes months or years to complete.

Quote:
Well guess what.....as a person who was dependant on hydrocodones.......its exactly the same trait as it is with suboxone....to me........this is my oppinion....just because the chemical break down isnt the same......i still feel the same only wheni go through the withdrawals...after stoping
It is exactly like going through Hydro withdrawals because your ARE going through Hydro withdrawals.

Quote:
but folks who try suboxone like myself will get the wrong idea and think they are in the clear of being addicted to pain pills
That is unfortunate that you thought that Sub was a cure for addiction. I wish your Dr had informed you in greater detail on what to expect from Sub. I too would feel as you do if I thought that Sub was a miracle pill to cure addiction.

Quote:
the long information you provide can be overbaring for some who are just seeking out a solution on jus how to make it through the night to sleep.
I agree. However, I find that the type of information Tim provides to be very valuable as it says me hours Googleing the internet ti try to find the info he posts here. Imagine how you would feel if you had had that information BEFORE you started Sub treatment. You would have avoided the terrible withdrawal episode you experienced when you quit Sub cold turkey.


Quote:
THE BAD::::
* VERY EXPENSIVE
* DR VISIT VERY COSTLY
* SEEMS LIKE DR DONT CARE ABOUT YOU
* VERY VERY ADDICTING
* SEVERE WITHDRAWALS
* HARD TO FIND INFO ON HOW TO EFFICIENTLY STOP TAKING THE DRUG
* DR AND OTHERS WILL AVOID THIS ISSUES LIKE THE PLAGUE.
* MANY MANY MORE
Very expensive - yes
Costly Dr Visits - yes, aren't they all.
Dr not caring - Some have said that also. My first Sub Dr was like that. My current Sub Dr and the Dr's staff are great.
Severe Withdrawals - Not as bad as other opiates and very few WD issues if done properly.
Hard to find taper info. - Yes it is difficult to find specific taper information on the internet. However, there is a lot of taper info on this site. I read and re-read it often to prepare myself for the time comes when i begin my taper.
Dr avoid issue, etc - Not at all in my experience. Find the right Sub Dr for you.
Many, many more - Nope.


When your Dr recommended Neurontin (Gabapentin) it was to help ease any lingering withdrawal issues you might have had after you tapered off Sub. The fact that Neurontin is an anti-convulsant has nothing to do with the reasons your Dr suggested it as an aid to quitting opiates.

Lastly,
Quote:
I have noticed alot of folks will dodge this issues (sub wd) and try to get u to focus on the good of the drug....it will help you .....but folks need to wake up and see that their is another problem that still needs to be solved....
a) Unless you started your opiate use with Sub and used Sub (buprenorphine) only you are not withdrawing from Sub, you are withdrawing from the opiate(s) that caused the dependence in the first place.

b) What is the other problem that needs to be addressed?

If you check my posts you will see that I also had a terrible time with Sub. When you read my first posts you will see that my problems were not with tapering, etc but severe side effects. I kept coming back to this forum and reading and discovered that, while my side effect problems were unique, there is an adjustment period when you first start Sub in which your body and brain adapt to the medicine and stabilize. I, since then, re-started Sub and have been stable for a while. Recently, all of my initial side effects stopped and I have experienced the benefits of being free of Hydro and Oxy.

Scotland
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:41 AM   #19
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WOw you must of been seriously bored to go back and say everything that tim said.....LOL i find that very funny....i hope you feel proud you accomplished something........I didnt need you to go back and rehash something that was already said........we moved on ....thanks for your long post though....i must be sayind something right.......i have 14 emails that ppl that msged me and applaud me for asking the questions or making the statements i make because they feel intimidated from ppl like you who post these long intimidating post.(only to some...not to me) ....again you wasted my and other forum members time by saying what has already been said.....
Quote:
b) What is the other problem that needs to be addressed?
LOL nothing....have a good night
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Unread 12-27-2008, 11:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey321 View Post
i must be sayind something right.......i have 14 emails that ppl that msged me and applaud me for asking the questions or making the statements i make because they feel intimidated from ppl like you who post these long intimidating post.(only to some...not to me) ....again you wasted my and other forum members time by saying what has already been said.....
Dude, The email/PM system here doesn't work.
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=20351

Ask all the questions you want, but before you chastise other people, your posts in this thread are long too. And if you don't want to read what bores you, don't, that's simple. Maybe other people are into studies and they'll get something out of it.

So, what did you decide to do about you and your wife. You said she's down to 1mg. Where are you at with what you're doing? I'm not gonna give you studies. I'll give my experience and what worked really well for me.

From 2 to 0. Reduced .5 every two weeks. Didn't over-think the gig. I did one time. I started sneezing and freaked myself out thinking it was gonna be baaaaad. Then I realized it was allergies (I was doing the big end taper in spring) and decided NOT to pick every symptom I had apart.

I exercised every day whether I felt like it or not. Good for both physical and psych wellbeing. Ate right. Took vitamins, especially the b12 and b-complex. Just had a few nights with jiggly legs and a few nights where sleep was hard to come by. But not much else.

Let me know if you've got questions. I'll see if I can give you answers.

POSITIVE energy and tapering beams to you! -Mary
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Unread 12-27-2008, 11:24 AM   #21
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thanks for the info mary.....the emails and pms are from people that say they read my post on here.....i use the same name on other forums also so it could be from another board...
dude back atcha..... i wasnt chastising .......if you took the time to read what he said it was everything almost word for word what tim said.....i dont have time to argue with ppl.....and maybe it might be just as simple for you not to read what i said or respond ......it works both ways.......again this board is super helpful and i appreciate the folks who contribute.....
Quote:
your posts in this thread are long too.
I will make sure to shorten any concerns,questions,oppinions....i didnt know a forum had size limits....
as far as my wife goes, she is at .5mg and seems to be stable there....i have my days ...some days i can go with just 2mg for the whole day and then if things get bad i will take .5mg just to feel better.....i go back to the doctor jan 7th and with that prescription i plan on tapering down per his instructions....i have been reading alot of post on tapering and there is no concrete formula....so im going to give it a rip and see what happens......
thanks to all again

Last edited by smokey321; 12-27-2008 at 11:27 AM..
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Unread 12-27-2008, 11:41 AM   #22
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Oh man, you are just incorrigible. LOL. I don't give a shit how long someone's posts are, just don't go complaining about someone else's long posts when yours are long too. That's all, no big dealio.

Ok, now that that's settled. Let's just get to the stuff at hand. When you do the extra .5mg, have you tracked it to see how long you're good at 2mg after that? I'm thinking that maybe that extra .5 is holding you through a couple of days so that 2mg is good because of the really long half life of sub, then that's when you need more?

I just posted this somewhere else, but maybe this could work for you. I did it from 4 to 2 and sort of continued it until 1mg then it was easier to just take it at the same time.

Quote:
Mary ~

My physician had made a suggestion to me that he says has also worked well for several of his patients.

There really is no reason to hold to a 24 hour schedule. If Sub doesn't impact your sleep than there is no concern as to when in the day you take it. How he suggested that I drop from 4 down to 2, is to go to 2mg every 16 hour dosing rather than 24 and to stay at that for the most part (obviously, you wouldn't get up in the middle of the nite to dose) until you are completely comfortable with it, then move to 2mg every 24 hours. It works better than trying 3mg, especially if you are trying to come up with any kind of an accurate 3mg dose out of an 8mg tablet!

The first time I was on Sub, that's how I did it and there was no noticeable impact at all. I was patient and didn't hurry it, as I know that you wil also be patient. It probably was about a week or 10 days before I went to every 24 hours from the 16 - and I was fine.

SomeDayBFree
You're right. There's no concrete plan for tapering. Just kind of following how you feel and adjust from there is the way to work it.

Peace. -Mary
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Unread 12-27-2008, 12:22 PM   #23
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Scotland,
Unlike smokey321 I am very grateful that you took the time to explain things. Thank you!! Even though smokey didnÂ’t appreciate you trying to help him I know some others reading were probably helped. IÂ’m sure there are many people like smokey who expect sub to do something it doesnÂ’t and get all pissed off when it doesnÂ’t do what it was never supposed to do.

Smokey,
You were very rude to Scotland, who was trying to help you. You are letting your arrogance and know-it-all attitude keep you from using sub the right way. There are no concrete protocols for taper for a reason, EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!! If you follow some taper plan in a book or one that worked for someone else youÂ’ll probably be disappointed, as you were. Some people will never be able to taper, and that has nothing to do with sub. Some people will be able to taper but only after they do a lot of work and make a lot of changes. Some people can taper right away. Tim explained how to know which one you are, and the taper plan is simple, PACE YOUR TAPER WITH YOUR BRAINÂ’S ABILITY TO HEAL, its been posted on this site a million times, and you wonÂ’t have severe withdrawal, actually I should say you will minimize your withdrawal because some people are very delicate and sensitive and any runny nose type symptoms will totally debilitate them. Why donÂ’t you just apologize and start over, people donÂ’t hold grudges here they really want to help.

For anyone reading this thread,
Smokey is a classic case of expecting sub to do something it isn’t meant for, then getting pissed off when it didn’t do it, and instead of thinking THEY were wrong accuse people in the know of lying, say all of the science is wrong, and dissin any information they don’t understand. Smokey expected sub to CURE his addiction, there is no cure. Even smokey has admitted sub didn’t exactly what it says it does stop cravings and withdrawal, but like any medication it only works WHILE YOU TAKE IT. Smokey expected the drug to cure his addiction and keep suppressing symptoms whether he took it or not. He thinks he’s uncovered some hidden conspiracy about sub, where everyone is hiding the “truth” about it. What really happened was he was expecting it to do something it doesn’t do and now feels betrayed and lied to because his unrealistic expectations didn’t come true. What he should do is think for a moment that maybe it is him and not the rest of the world that’s wrong and figure out how to use it right, but instead he wants to insult people who try to help him which unfortunately will lead him right back to active addiction and blaming sub, us, science, his doctor, and everyone else for it. Don’t be a smokey.

Sarah


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Unread 12-27-2008, 12:54 PM   #24
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hahahhahahha @ sarah.....say what u like..............its a dead subject.....

Mary thanks for the info ...........and stop using big words......you made me go get the dictionary.....LOL...JK.....have a great day

BTW...lemme continue being so called rude.........
Sarah if your able to read maybe you should start at the bottom of the post and see that Tim already said the exact same thing your buddy did.....but thanks anyway..... i will make sure to jump on the sarah bandwagon ........lol....utterly amazing

Last edited by smokey321; 12-27-2008 at 12:58 PM..
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:09 PM   #25
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Good luck!
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:18 PM   #26
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I don't get it. Why is everyone attacking smokey? Everyone seems to become so defensive over Sub and all he's doing is telling his story, saying his concerns...that deserves an attack? I am too in the same situation. My body(brain) is addicted to Sub. No matter what you say about tests, stories, past experiences...my brain is addicted to Sub.. bottom line.

Mary.... I truly believe you didn't have a "sinus infection" or whatever you called it when you came off the drug. You were going through withdrawals...bottom line.

These ppl are unbelievable. Hope you get the right advice from ppl other than these Smokey!

This post was actually written by smokey321- duplicate identities are a violation of our policies for this reason. Making up characters to argue on your behalf is disingenuous - please only one identity per person - EDWARD Policy Enforcement
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:34 PM   #27
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Hi Smokey

I am doing well on Suboxone for chronic pain. Compared to massive amounts of Hydrocodone, Oxycodone (Percocet), and acetaminophen I'd much rather take Suboxone. If this turns out to be a "for life" thing then, so be it. I'll try and get to a lowest dose possible amount but am in no hurry to get there. I applaud what Tim and Nancy have done here. I am not sure one way or the other if they happen to have an addiction story. It seemed to me that you concluded that Tim did not. He did not say that.

Forgive me for saying this as I do not want to put you on the defensive. It seems to me that you hear what you want to hear.

There is not a thing wrong with saying you were wrong. In fact, it is a noble character trait. No one here wants you to leave this forum-We want to help as the more we have the stronger our knowledge base is. Maybe you are unique in brain chemistry. Maybe you have a sensitive withdrawal system. I think this important to explore as maybe I'll be hurting when I drop to 1mg (I'm thinking that 2mg may be best from what I've read) Who knows for sure? So, please stick around we need to hear all sides but please also, play nice!

Glen
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:37 PM   #28
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Hey smokey321, we're cool then. Good. I just don't want to see people suffer if they don't have to.

angiem, I didn't say I had a sinus infection. I said when I did a drop I was sneezing. Taking benedryl wouldn't have stopped it if it were WDs. I KNOW MY WDs. Been there, done it too many times with H. That was a reflex action because it was spring and I always get allergies then. So don't 'bottom line' me when you don't know me or what my gig was. I HAD WDs going from 4 to 2. That sneezing wasn't WDs. I got no reason to lie.

I won't doubt that you're addicted to sub. But lemme ask this first, are you? Is your life consumed with thoughts of sub, when you'll have more, when can you take more, how will you get more? That's addiction. Bottom line. Otherwise you're having a hard time stopping it because your physically dependent on it. I know, some people will say that's semantics. But there's a difference. I was always wondering where I'd get my next supply of H from, how much I had left, what if my dealer got bagged. If that's what you're doing, then yeah, you're addicted to it. You gotta break that behavior train before you can do it right. With sub I took it once a day and forgot about it. Yeah, I had WDs when I dropped it too fast. Then I backed up and tried again. Like with that thing I posted to smokey321 about doing the split thing. I had a hard time going from 4 to 2 so I posted it and got suggestions and that one worked for me.

What's your story? How much sub are you taking, what did you get down to and how did you get there. Maybe we can help. -Mary
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:46 PM   #29
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Glen,
thanks so much for sharing your story and your words of encouragement.....I am the type of person who says whats on my mind and maybe it may come across the wrong way. But again i want to say that Nancy is awesome at what she does and seems to be very caring about others and how they feel. I think one thing we all can agree on is we would like to get back to normal....whatever that may be...
I dont get my rocks off by attacking ppl on a computer as some of the others may do...but one thing i cant stand is for someone who has never been in my shoes or ever been addict or dependant on anytype of drug...tell me im not going through what im went through and so on.....this isnt a game and as a 40yr old male i sit and wonder how this all happened......but i cant change that and what i have to do now is prepare and overcome what i have created. I totally understand all the medical terminology and i agree education is very important to overcome addiction. But when folks are in their darkest moments they dont want to hear that....they want to know how they can see the light per say....
I have read and read post after post trying to understand and absorm as much information as i can. personally i see a patern of defense from some and see a genuine sincerity from others....
as i said before for the new folks...you have to sit back and pick and chose what you want to believe...
Again, i think this forum is awesome and can be very helpful for folks seeking help....
thanks again..
sorry for the long post

P.S... kudos to mary too......
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:46 PM   #30
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Angeim

I have to say that I did not find anyone attacking Smokey. Telling Smokey their opinions backed by reams of research, is not my idea of attacking.

True Smokey should continue to tell his tale but there are a lot of stories backing up Tim, Nancy and Scotland. They have been more then patient.

We are each different a thus will be affected in a different manner. But to suggest that this forum did not give enough information about W/D is very unfair. There are many post's on tapering, side effects and W/D.

"A man he hears what he wants to hear...."

Glen
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:48 PM   #31
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Hi Smokey

Now that was nice! Be well my friend.

Glen
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:52 PM   #32
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AngieM, Im going to adopt u as my big sister......thanks for watching over me....im going to send you a cyber hug.

BUt you know what happens when u defend someone.............then everyone turns on you......LOL.......
so everyone lets do a dogpile on angiem.........
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:57 PM   #33
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Mary,
I was once addicted to hydrocodone/Lortab for about 5 years. I did crave it, exactly like you said you did. I do 'believe' my body is addicted to Sub because I have tried to quit twice, down to 1 mg when I did, and I still suffered withdrawals. I didn't 'crave' Sub so I wasn't addicted in that sort of way.
When I did try quitting, I truly believed I had a sinus infection too, but I also tryed Benedryl and it just wasn't working for me. I'm currently on 0.5 morning/0.5 night. I hope that maybe in about a week,...i can try to take just 0.5 every other day..and see how that works. However, I do give you 'props' for being able to quit. After failing a couple times at quitting, I feel that there will be WD's no matter how low i get my dose. I'm just so sick of taking pills, and want to back to my old self again.

I'm truly not trying to bash anyone on here, I just see myself in alot of what Smokey is saying.


This post was actually written by smokey321- duplicate identities are a violation of our policies for this reason. Making up characters to argue on your behalf is disingenuous - please only one identity per person - EDWARD Policy Enforcement
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Unread 12-27-2008, 01:57 PM   #34
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Hey smokey321, hope you don't mean me dogpiling on angiem. Just clarifying the wrong assumption that my sneezing was WDs.

Like I said, I just wanna help people get through this taper scene if I can.
It sucks when people are hurting doing it.

So no dogpiling for me, just looking for info to offer up some help.

"What's so funny about peace love and understanding?" E. Costello

Peace out! -Mary
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Unread 12-27-2008, 02:03 PM   #35
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Ah ok angiem, got 'cha on the sinus infection thing. Ok. Yeah, when the benedryl doesn't work, then it's WDs.

You know what might work, well, do you have the 8mg pills or 2mg pills? It might not work with the 8mg. Annnnnnnyways, this guy ready2quit had this taper thing where he'd take what he wanted to be at in the morning and the rest in the afternoon.
Like if he wanted to be 1mg from 1.5, he'd do 1 in the am then the .5 in the afternoon (or it could go 1.25 am .25 afternoon) then he said he'd start not taking the afternoon dose every day, then eventually not at all and repeat with his next drop.

Or you could start spacing your 2nd .5 later and later until you don't need it. I didn't have trouble with the .5 reductions. But I made sure that I was totally comfy at that drop # before moving on. 2 weeks worked good for me.

Sending good positive energy. We'll get you through this. -Mary
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Unread 12-27-2008, 02:16 PM   #36
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This forum is set up for support, encouragement, information, and people's viewpoints. When someone seems to want to go "negative" of course many people aren't happy. There is no place on a support board for raggin' on people. Read what you want, take what will be helpful, and move on. Use what you can and discard the rest. There is no need to "defend" the use of sub just as there is no need to "defend" why sub doesn't work. Tell your story, read others, share what you want, and hopefully what we share can be helpful in some way. If what I read on a forum was not helpful and just upset me I sure wouldn't keep going back there and trying to convince them that they didn't know what they were talking about. I would decide that that was just the way the forum was set, and that is how most people wanted to use it and I would go and find a forum with like minded folks like me! No one has to experience an exact same experience as someone else to understand what they are going through. I would hate it if my OB told me he could not treat me because he had never had a baby himself. That would actually be kind of funny now, wouldn't it? So, please try to use this forum as a support, encouragement, and a learning tool. Everybody is different, everybody has their own experiences, and each person just needs to take what is useful to them. But, please, I hope we can stay positive and provide useful support. If one does not want to read all the "blah, blah, blah," research and clinical studies, then one is not forced to, but for some they appreciate the educational part and learn from it. Isn't it wonderful that we are each such unique individuals-Now, everybody go and have themselves a great day, and Happy New Year to all!

Best wishes,

Nan
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Unread 12-28-2008, 12:10 AM   #37
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Sarah,

You said:

Quote:
Scotland,
Unlike smokey321 I am very grateful that you took the time to explain things. Thank you!! Even though smokey didnÂ’t appreciate you trying to help him I know some others reading were probably helped. IÂ’m sure there are many people like smokey who expect sub to do something it doesnÂ’t and get all pissed off when it doesnÂ’t do what it was never supposed to do.


Bold letters above are mine to point out what I posted a few days after starting Sub:

Quote:
Just a follow up.

I remember very little of Tuesday and Wednesday and what I do remember seems like it was from a nightmare I had. Even on 2 mg yesterday I felt terrible; trembling, sudden jerks in my arms or legs or torso, no balance. I've not had any Sub today and I feel way better. I am starting LDN tonight, hopefully it will help. The Suboxone treatment was one of the worst experiences of my life. No more Suboxone for me.
I did quit Sub and started again a little while later with a different Doctor. Other side effects I had included auditory hallucinations (hearing voices) and difficulty swallowing - I would choke when drinking diet soda.

After I quit Sub I had 3 choices:
- Keep using opies
- Quit on my own (not very likely, based on previous attempts) and go back to major depression
- Find a doctor with experience with Sub and try again. That is what I did! Over time the side effects went away and now I am feeling great.


I can sympathize with Smokey not being happy with how Sub worked, I wasn't either. I could even agree that he was a unique example of Suboxone not working to quit opies. I, in my doctor's words, 'reacted to Sub in a very, very unusual manner'. However, based on what he says he did (quit Sub cold turkey) and then going through very bad WD, what he is saying about Sub is simply incorrect. That type of misinformation is damaging in that it may keep someone addicted to opiates from trying to stop their addiction using Sub.

I also believe, based on spelling and writing style that Smokey and angiem are the same person posting under different user names. If that is true it makes the whole thing even weirder.

Scotland
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Unread 12-28-2008, 12:52 AM   #38
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"I also believe, based on spelling and writing style that Smokey and angiem are the same person posting under different user names. If that is true it makes the whole thing even weirder." -scotland


Scotland,
your not very bright are you? angiem is my wife who happened to be on her pc in a whole another part of the house at the time she responded to my post.....I dont have time for your games....ppl dont want to read this kind of stuff especially since they come here for help and honest experiences like my own. Im sorry youhave such a problem with what i write....there is a ignore button.....Again all i have to say is UTTERLY AMAZING.....
After reading all your post scotland i find it interesting at a time of distress and confusion that you find time to try to harrass me......iet it go like i did....
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:36 AM   #39
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Smoke,

I am not harassing you. I am saying that what you said about the mechanisms of Suboxone's action is incorrect.

I am not doubting the honesty of your experience in any way I am just trying to correct misinformation regarding the science behind Sub you are posting here.

You and your wife are posting here and it is not you with two user names, I was wrong. I saw the post from the Site Admin about you and angiem being in the same location, but why would you want to adopt your wife as your big sister? Because the entire smokie/angiem exchange was a farce. You two joined on the same day, you are both posting on the Suboxone forum, in the same thread, one 10 minutes after the other and you pretend not to know her. Come on, give it a rest Smokie.



S

PS I saw the post from Sub-Zero about using the ignore function, consider yourself ignored.
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:41 AM   #40
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poof be gone.......

But i do wonder how a person who has so litle knowledge about his own addiction according to his post knows about the mechanisms of suboxones actions?

http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...275#post322275

and i guess since he got some answers he wants to tel me about the mechanisms of suboxone....

cmon

can we please move on...? LOL

Last edited by smokey321; 12-28-2008 at 01:49 AM..
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Unread 12-28-2008, 02:04 AM   #41
angiem
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Wow...I didn't know I needed permission to sit on my own laptop and get support from Sub forums...if I knew somebody ON the forums.

Smokey...I guess I should find another forum to seek advice. I'm sorry that you even turned me on to this website.

Furthermore...I guess it was wrong to give my opinions. As an addict, I would like to think I can come in a forum and not be spyed on, not have my IP address spyed on. Is it illegal to live in the same house with another addict seeking help from a forum?

scotland...you need to grow up. How are you going to tell someone about the mechanisms of Suboxone...after reading your posts your not very knowledgable about how to taper down. Let alone, correct misinformation regarding the science behind Sub as you said in your post. I won't stoop down to your level...might as well put me on ignore too. Have a nice life.

Go figure.


This post was actually written by smokey321- duplicate identities are a violation of our policies for this reason. Making up characters to argue on your behalf is disingenuous - please only one identity per person - EDWARD Policy Enforcement

Last edited by angiem; 12-28-2008 at 02:10 AM..
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Unread 12-28-2008, 09:33 AM   #42
joshfarc
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Anyway, I can relate to a lot of what you said. Many times people get defensive about suboxone, and many times people perceive something as defensive because it goes against their experience or what they believe.

I have struggled with suboxone in many aspects, but to state that it has the same full-fledged withdrawals as full-agonist opiates is ignorant. Yes, if you quite suboxone cold-turkey you will have withdrawals. I did this many years ago, and felt withdrawals for many days: insomnia, no appetite, runny nose, etc. They didn't compare to the w/d's i felt from trying to quit heroin cold turkey...there was a noticeable difference.

Smokey, hopefully you aren't just here trying to "bash" suboxone. Most of us that take suboxone are fairly well educated on it, and most of us knew what we were getting into before going on it. I feel sorry for people that do not have the benefit of education before-hand, and I was one of them. But it's never too late to educate yourself on it, listen to others experiences, and listen to yourself. Really listening to your body and doing a slow taper is the only way to get off fairly comfortably.

Many people here have tried discussing the science and research with you, and if you sort of choose not to listen to it and that is fine. But realize it can be helpful, very helpful. I was in a very similar position to you, very much against suboxone in thinking it was no different than all other opiates, and feeling I was stuck on it for life.....like my heroin addiction. Realize many others empathize with how you feel, and there are ways of moving forward.

My first experience with suboxone failed and I got sick, and I went back to using. Now I have been on sub for 2 years and am almost completely tapered off. It really takes patience, and a very open mind and heart. And I am not standing here saying that it has been a perfect transition and there are absolutely no side effects, and if you feel any you are wrong....etc. Sure, I have had some side effects, anxiety, colds, and some other things. But I dealt with it and focused on the positive. What would the point be if we all just focused on the negative? Again, these side effects were nothing in comparison to the skin-crawling struggle of heroin withdrawal, but sure, if it helps to hear that others have felt slight withdrawals as well then hopefully it helps. This pill isn't special, it is not a cure, and it is potent. But it can be a tool in recovery if used correctly. I still have some problems in my life, battle with some anxiety/depression, but this isn't because of the suboxone or tapering off of it. It's because I used hard opiates for many, many years....and now my body/mind is learning to be natural.

Good luck with your recovery Smokey and Angie. Try to combine others experiences, research, medical science, and listening to your own bodies to taper off of sub. I am just like you guys, and most of us here are very similar. Just because we have some withdrawals doesn't mean we should focus on the negatives. It means we should express how it happened on the forum and seek some advice. Maybe you slow the taper down, maybe you exercise, maybe you talk, or maybe you somehow push through it and just focus on the long-term and positive. Good luck to you as individuals and a couple.

Last edited by joshfarc; 12-28-2008 at 09:36 AM..
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Unread 12-28-2008, 11:27 AM   #43
deanna
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Smokey and Angie, I hope you read Joshfarcs post over and over and over again. I have been following a lot of his advice since starting the sub program back in September and I must say, he is highly knowledgeable about how the whole sub program works. When a person first starts the sub, we have a lot of raw emotions coming out all the time.......I know this, Ive experienced it. I look at my old posts sometimes and see how much Ive calmed down and changed over the last 3 1/2 months. Just keep and open mind. It will be well worth it. Deanna
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Unread 12-28-2008, 11:54 AM   #44
smokey321
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Quote:
It means we should express how it happened on the forum and seek some advice. Maybe you slow the taper down, maybe you exercise, maybe you talk, or maybe you somehow push through it and just focus on the long-term and positive. Good luck to you as individuals and a couple.
I did express it and then i get called ignorant.....i get bashed....etc.....I asked folks before they start bashin me to please read the whole post and you will see where i am coming from....im not going to sit here and rehash or say everything i already said all over again....im going to make simple points and call it a day....if some of these ppl are that slow that they cant read the whole post then thats their problem...
* The withdrawals symptoms are worse than ANY pill in the HYDROCODONE family........I DIDNT SAY HERION.( I never used herion so i wouldnt know), The withdrawal last longer than any hydro pill and TO ME seem to be worse........
* folk who usually come on here are in dire need of some type of comfort because they might be going through wd and they are most of the time from what i read....are seeking some type of solution on how to stop shaking,diarehha,coldness etc.....i was saying most dont want to get scienctific info shoved down their throat when all they are trying to do is seek some answers.....
that is how i found this site...i googled the shakes and wd from suboxone and it led me here......
*GOOGLE WITHDRAWLS FROM SUBOXONE AND YOU WILL READ STORIES AFTGER STORIES OF FOLKS SAYING HOW MUCH WORSE THE WD ARE THAN THEIR DRUG OF CHOICE....AND MOST OF IT WAS HYDRO FAMILY.....

So AGAIN.......for the folks that want to increase their post numbers by bashing me please go read the whole post before you call m ignorant or say that what ii said was ignorant..
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Unread 12-28-2008, 01:47 PM   #45
sarah
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Smile Knowledge is power and makes all the difference in treating any disease.

Great post Joshfarc! You are so right.
IÂ’ve seen a pattern repeated time after time here and other sites. People who become educated about suboxone and addiction have good experiences and the majority regain their lives and are happy and grateful during and after treatment. While people who donÂ’t educate themselves, are continually disappointed, claim there is some big cover-up, and toss out all of the science that explains why they experienced what they did. They think theyÂ’ve uncovered some hidden truth about suboxone, when really they discovered what we have been saying all along, that if they donÂ’t educate yourself their treatment wonÂ’t go as expected and they might feel misled and betrayed, that is if they donÂ’t first figure out that maybe they had the wrong assumptions about it in the first place.

It is sad but I think obvious to the average reader. So I hope people reading will learn from the mistakes of these folks, and from the successes of those who educated themselves. Knowledge is power and makes all the difference in treating any disease.

Sarah
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Unread 12-30-2008, 07:22 PM   #46
joshfarc
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Smokey,

Nobody is calling you directly ignorant or bashing you. If you read my post I am literally asking you if you are bashing it, and implying that ignorance can damage treatment. In no way, shape, or form am I trying to attack you at any point.....in actuality I was trying to do the opposite and help you. But help isn't always going to be what you think it is. I think everyone here is trying to help you. Sure, some get more defensive then others about certain things....and just realize we are all human and have faults and mechanisms that make us who we are.

Smokey, I hope your treatment is going well and you're figuring what to do out. You're last post discussed how Suboxone is much harder to withdrawal from than Hydrocodone(vic's). This may be true....I have read stories where patients were on relatively low doses of Vicodin(lesss than 50mg a day or so) that transitioned to high doses of sub(16mg a day or so) have felt it was a very powerful substance. This is not incorrect....as suboxone is a potent narcotic.....it's just most of us were usually far, far, far more dependent on whatever substance we used. I can't personally relate the w/d's from hydrocodone to suboxone so I can't give an experience, and I have gathered that you don't want the science thrown at you discussing suboxone's partial agonist hoo-haa compared to hydro's full-agonist!

I don't doubt your experience one bit. Smokey, the more you discuss your situation the more we understand it. You have to tell us what your addiction was....and dosage is a very impotant part of it. We need to know if you took 20mg of Vic a day or 200mg of Vic a day.....there is a big difference and thus treatment with suboxone will be different. It's hard to reccommend what the next plan of action for you is without knowing very much about you. If you expect to come on this site and just spend all your time saying suboxone is a bad treatment that is more potent than everybodies initial drug of ch oice, which goes against all the science, but more importantly, it goes against most people's experiences on this site with suboxone, well, don't expect people to hop on the band-wagon and post that you are so right.......it's just not going to happen. Many people have been addicts on Vicodin, Percocet, Loritab, Oxycontin, Methadone, and Herion, and a smart, planned suboxone treatment at the right dosage/rate has proven to be very effective and less physically dependant in all these cases many times. Just ask around these forums. I'm not trying to throw a blind study at you here.... everyone has their own opinion from subjective experience.....and most of us here have had a positive one with suboxone. Sure, there are some negatives, but they outweigh the positives by an enormous amount.

We want you to come here speak your mind whenever you want smokey. Just know the answer isn't always what you think, and if you don't come here with an open mind you aren't going to change in one bit. THis probably sounds repetitive and I apologize, but I remember many of my first posts were somewhat similar. I would post that "Pople here are brainwashed by Sub marketing" and didn't understand why the forum was so full of only positive and uplifting stories/threads on suboxones, and when someone posted something negative people were quick to "defend" suboxone. After educating myself through some reading, the science and other people's experiences, I understand it all a bit better now. I think you have to take a step back and realize what this forum is all about Smokey.

We are helping you, but because we aren't all saying "Yes Smokey, you are correct, Suboxone is highly addictive and more physically dependent forming on your body than opiates like Hydrocodone", you seem to be against everything we are saying. Many of us just read, many just give advice through experience and knowledge, but we all have our own perception of what "Suboxone really is". Most of us here will disagree that Suboxone is a stronger opiate than Hydro....but of course, dosaging really effects that answer.

Hopefully you don't take this post the wrong way. I really am not a "defensive" suboxone patient, I just speak from my personal subjective experience combined with the objective truth of others and science.

BTW: Smokey, can you tell us your usage history in specifics?

What was your Hydro addiction like? How long? What dose? How many a day? etc

When did you transition to sub? What was the initial dose you went on? How long have you been on it? What exactly was your taper routine(and we are talking specifics here, each dose drop/time frame, etc)?

It would help all of us to know your history.....it's a key part to trying to understand that person and respond.
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