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Unread 01-21-2015, 10:02 AM   #1
Stevo
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I have been taking Baclofen now for about 8 months and believe it is doing for me what is described in Dr. Amiessens book,I am looking for someone to talk to about this treatment.I am 9 days short of 1 year clean and sober at the time of writing this and have been an avid participant in both AA and NA but of late have been thinking quite a lot about the possibilitiy of maybe undertaking controlled drinking as described in the book.According to AA the great obsession of every alcoholic is that one day we too can drink as other men do and I am no different in that regard.I live in Australia and Baclofen treatment for alcoholism is virtually unknown here,my Dr. stated that I was the test case(guinea pig)in Australia.I really would like to get in contact with other people who have or are being treated for alcoholism and addiction with Baclofen to discuss their experience and thoughts on its pros and cons.
Thankyou in advance and hope to hear from someone soon.
Stevo.
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Unread 01-21-2015, 10:39 AM   #2
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Hi Stevo, this recent thread is about sallykarima's experience with Baclofen - thought it might be of interest:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=29721

Welcome!

Nancy
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Unread 01-21-2015, 03:03 PM   #3
Tryntryagain
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Hello Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

I detect a hint of anxiety about pathways forwards for you at this time, and this is absolutely the right place to be. Here you will be able to reach out to find your answers inside.

Medication is most certainly helpful in some circumstances. You are in Aussiland, the family USA, myself here in Blighty, and we have "antabuse". It is a medication that frankly means drinking will make you ill, if not kill you. There are "inhibitors", that stop the release of dophamines and endorpines, (the "i like this" chemicals), but ultimately they can only help you along your way. If there was a drug that stopped alcoholics drinking i promise you i would know!

The desire, the motivation which you most certainly have, and then looking to support structures that work for you. Help from your Dr, your friends, if those are options, and if not, support from elsewhere.

You are in the right place Stevo.

Be peaceful, be healthy and be thoughtful. Loveness to you Stevo
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Unread 01-23-2015, 05:40 PM   #4
Sam Bailey
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Hello Stevo,

Welcome to AddictionSurvivors, our new Aussie friend. There is much to learn here, as I'm certain you will soon discover---then, not too further down the line, there will be much to share with others who've come to this joint with similar trouble and pain and heartache.

Most of that trouble 'n ache, all in some cases, born from our use/abuse of alcohol and/or drugs, so we have discovered.

Some folks can control their drinking. Sure they can, beginning with the first beer they drank, the first shot they slammed. Never, those folk, never-ever did they have a problem.

But there are others, folk like me, who DID have a problem. Problems, actually. Fact is, my life was nearly ended by my wretched addiction. Other folks, too, whose lives were ruined, whose families were destroyed, whose souls were ripped to pieces due to popping open that first beer, or popping down that first pill.

Which person are you, Stevo? Really. WHO are you? A man in the Light? Or, maybe, might you still be lost in the dark and lonesome hell of your active addiction? It once had you in a head-lock, seems like...right? What's changed?

Anyway.

All THAT to say THIS. No, to ASK this: WHY Stevo, why do you even WANT to "try controlled drinking?"

Dude, so not judging. If you can do it, ok---then fine. I once really liked it too. Had a blast. Lotsa fun. For me, though, things changed and dope, for me, just stopped being in any way...fun.

So, I ask you for CLARITY. WHY do you want to drink again? What's the upside? What's in it for you, specifically?

Answer that question, Stevo...with honesty and clarity.

IF you're honest and clear, then you will have your answer. No need to ask some bozo like, uh...sam bailey. Ha!

Ok, enough outta moi.

I do hope, in whatever shakes out, you remain well.

best,

sam b
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Unread 01-23-2015, 06:49 PM   #5
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Stevo, Welcome to this site.

The idea of controlled drinking for me sucks. Why would I want to limit the amount I drink if I was to drink again. That does not sound like fun for me. They do say if you have not had enough then go out & drink some more.

Good luck in you decision. Let us know how it works.
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Unread 01-23-2015, 11:57 PM   #6
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Stevo,

Welcome!! I am glad you found your way here. I will echo the other's sentiment s regarding controlled drinking. IT's not for me. I tried it and it v went like this: I drank for pretty much every day of my adult life. Drunk. I tried controlling it but alcohol controlled me. Finally, thankfully, I became so tired of being sick and tired I knew I had to stop. I was spiraling out of control. I found my way here and with the help of RLee and others was able to get my life back. There were times in early sobriety I was tempted to have one drink. That was the alcoholic in me talking. It wanted what it once knew not so long ago. It wanted alcohol. Seemed safe. One drink. My body and mind was familiar with it. I thought through that drink and remembered what alcohol had done to me and would do to me again. That one drink would undo Everything I struggled so hard for, my sobriety. For me the decision takes a nanosecond. Nope. No controlled drinking for me. That's just my experience. If you feel it's something you need to try do it. But do it knowing the possible negative outcome. If it becomes too much work to control your drinking just stop. I am sooooo much more at peace today now that I no longer struggle with alcohol. I know I will never be cured.

Welcome Stevo. You are among friends here!

Peace,
Saint
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Unread 01-24-2015, 10:40 AM   #7
Tryntryagain
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Good afternoon Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

I can understand your wish to not "let it go", in Blighty we have a saying that says a person "wants their cake and eat it".

I tried all this controlled drinking marlarky, and i did it extremely well. So well infact that it was only when i fell over and felt like shit the next day, i began to question my own wisdom.

(My alcoholic didnt want to let go)

So i came up with a master plan. Oh yes. I decided to drink "non alcoholic drinks"...(most have some alcohol in actually), they looked the real deal, but i was being clever.....If it walks like a duck...it will quack like a duck yeah?.....Certainly quacked....but no "whack".

My "non alcoholic days" lasted...ummm...hold on let me think......oh yes, a day. If you sit in a barbars long enough, you WILL get your haircut.

The thing about controlled drinking is it is a misnomer. Essentially i am saying, i will lose this much control, let my hair down "this much", but no more.

Sobriety teaches me that i can "let my hair down" so much better sober.

We are all different Stevo. What works for some does not for others. Here folk swap experiences, feelings and strength. I am not telling you not to try controlled drinking, although because you took the effort to come and find this family, your drinking must have caused you grave concerns?

Perhaps controlled drinking works for some, my experience of my brothers and sisters here, (i am assuming so forgive me anyone if i offend), but i suggest we all tried controlled drinking. Through that journey i certainly recognised that it was a clear cut choice of short term gain, for 1 heck of alot of pain.

Here there are so many threads that can empower you to take time, we all deserve the time we could have for ourselves.

Be peaceful, be thoughtful and be patient. There is no rush. Loveness to you Stevo.
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Unread 01-24-2015, 09:02 PM   #8
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Hello all,I relapsed this past new years cause I convinced myself I could drink some beer instead of my normal bottle or long binge of vodka ,Convinced my girlfriend it was fine so she wouldn't worry but it kickstarted me back into drinking for 2 more days til I ended up in the ER , after I fell ,my Blood alcohol level was .30 something ,its a everyday struggle & sometimes a hour by hour struggle
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Unread 01-24-2015, 10:15 PM   #9
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Travis-scott,

Keep thinking sobriety. Our mind moves towards and becomes that which we think about. You were sober before, you can do it again. You have our support here, keep coming back and share your story with us. I drank for most of my adult life, divorced, one child. i told myself I would stop drinking when she was born. 10 years later I was still drinking, more than ever. Don't beat yourself up over this. What is done is done. Learn from the past. Forgive yourself and move forward. This disease will always be waiting for us. We are all one drink away.

Take care of yourself and hang in there.
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Unread 01-25-2015, 12:04 AM   #10
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I went to AA 35 years ago, when my father died. I quit for six months or so, then drank for another 35 years. When I had double bypass heart surgery, 2 years ago, I knew damn good and well it was the result of sinking into the abyss of alcoholism after retirement and my mother's passing. I quit for 3 or 4 months after the surgery, thought I could have a glass of wine at lunch, and 3 months later was drinking from 10 AM until 10 PM every day. If I had not quit when I did, I would no doubt be dead now.

Now that I am sober, I wonder why I ever needed to drink at all? If there is any question, then quit. You don't have to hit rock bottom.

Travis-Scott, If you don't want to end up where we did, in the hospital, jail, rehad, dead, it is worth the struggle. Every day gets easier with a little support from your friends. Stay with us, and we will stay with you!

Love, Susie
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Unread 01-25-2015, 02:10 AM   #11
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Hi there guys and thanks for all of your responses.As I said in my first post,tests conducted by Dr.Ameisen lead him to believe that whilst on Baclofen the compulsion to drink to oblivion did not kick in.I am interested in this because recovery is not an easy road which I am all too aware of.
Who or what am I one of the responses asked?I am a man who has had drug and alcohol problems since I was 10 years old,I approach 40 this year.I spent 5 years abstinent from alcohol in my mid 20's thanks to AA before picking up a drink again and drinking for another 10 years prior to walking back into AA in February 2013.I am not interested in pie in the sky ideals or positive affirmations,I find them to be short lived.I also am very wary of well meaning people who like to try to make themselves feel better by giving ridiculous advice(the path to hell is paved with good intentions).In the last 10 years of my active alcoholism I managed to have the most productive years of my life,which were only tainted by the fact that I am an alcoholic who will spend every free minute drinking if left to my own devices.This all came crashing down when I decided it was time to have another crack at recovery.My recovery story this time is not full of how my life got better in some magical way all because I stopped drinking.To the contrary I have been unemployed now for almost a year due to the fact that the industry I work in makes me so sick that I now know that the only reason I survived so long in it was because I could escape into a bottle each night,to continue to work in this field would only jeopardise my recovery.My family now lives on if not below the poverty line,prior to recovery I was well paid and we lived very comfortably.Without going into too much detail I lost all of my friends when I began recovery again aswell,it is like me being in recovery is such an unacceptable act that none of them can ever forgive me for it.AA is a great place to be in the earliest days of recovery but it is not suited to everyone,and it has not even come close to providing a somewhat genuine alternative.The friendships that I lost have not been replaced via the fellowships and even Bill W said that AA does not have a monopoly on treating alcoholism.
I did not come here for people to be presumptuous and think that they will say a few well placed words of wisdom and they will somehow become the saviour of Stevo in Australia.I do not intend to sound rude or ungrateful but I am someone who has been around the block a few times and am very knowledgable about life in recovery.
I did come here as my first post stated to hopefully find and talk to some people who have experience with Baclofen and find out if it is possible for me to drink on it without it being compelled to drink myself into the gates of insanity or death.If I cant find what I am looking for or atleast get a chance to communicate with people who have experienced this first hand I will be inclined to possibly undertake the controlled drinking experiment blindly.
The notion that an alcoholic can never take another drink safely is in itself an ideal that I have watched friends kill themselves over.They chose to live in a nightmare rather than let go of this ideal which eventually lead them to take their own lives.I am aware of this nightmare life and have lived it firsthand.
I sit in meetings with people whos only positive aspect is that they have not had a drink for 20 years.Seriously they are so miserable that I wish that I could buy them a drink and give them a little respite from themselves,I will not become one of these people.
I will finish on this,I too have never been someone who was happy with just a drink or two,I drink for effect but if it is possible to do this thanks to Baclofen,and we all live in a world where having a few drinks is a completely acceptable and enjoyable past time.I would like to do this too as anyone who is completely honest with themselves would also enjoy.
Hopefully I haven't been too offensive.
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Unread 01-25-2015, 04:45 AM   #12
Stevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NancyB View Post
Hi Stevo, this recent thread is about sallykarima's experience with Baclofen - thought it might be of interest:
http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vb...ad.php?t=29721

Welcome!

Nancy
Thankyou NancyB for the link,I found it very interesting.My own experience has been very different in that I have not experienced many negative side effects.I had a little nausea at first but other than that it has been a fairly smooth run.I definitely believe that the Baclofen is keeping any cravings at bay as was Sally's experience too.I have not tried to come off of Baclofen as yet and don't think that I will any time soon.I hope that if I do I don't experience the same withdrawal symptoms.It is something that I have read about previously though.
As in Dr.Amiessens book the Baclofen seems to deal with the anxiety of which the substance abuse is a comorbidity.I have PTSD which I have dealt with most of my life,nothing has managed to keep me quite as comfortable in my own skin as the Baclofen.It has no euphoric effect(which I saw that Sally spoke about as a negative side effect)like valium or other benzos but calms the physical state down.The knock on effect is that it almost tricks the brain into thinking that it has the usual drug of choice already and the cravings lessen or disappear completely.So for me it is not really being used as a deterent from drinking and drugging but as a relaxing agent with the idea that if I am not so highly strung this will work in my favour towards combatting my default position which is more often than not drinking to ease my anxiety.I saw antabuse and a few other drugs being mentioned before,an alcoholic will drink on antabuse it is the nature of the disease.Baclofen doesn't work like that.
Anyway I can only relate my experience and it was certainly good to have a look at Sally's too.I look forward to getting more leads from the people in here and hopefully hearing from others who have stories to tell too.
Thankyou again.
Apologies for double post,I don't know if it is an issue in here but I am associated with another forum completely unrelated and they do not like in there.

Last edited by Stevo; 01-25-2015 at 05:10 AM.. Reason: Add apology
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Unread 01-25-2015, 05:30 AM   #13
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Hello Stevo,

No, you have not been offensive. What you are doing is simply searching for an answer to this crappy alcoholism-to-the-death question. I get it; I think we all do.

However, I think that what you are actually searching for is a positive, supportive answer, a response that you WANT to hear. I think this, though I could be wrong. Excuse me please if I am.

The truth Stevo is really simple, IMO, especially based on your history of drinking to dramatic, soul-ripping excess.

If you drink again, Stevo, you will, again, soon be out of control. For people like you, like us, there is NO controlled drinking possible.

Drink again Stevo, and you will, once more, find yourself in that awful black place, mind, body and soul.

Again I ask you: why, man? What's the upside for you? The taste of ONE beer? The camaraderie of one cocktail with another person? What's the point?

In my opinion, the "point" is the most simple answer of all. You want to get loaded again, though without the consequences.

That time, friend, is long gone. Drink again, Stevo? It'll be you walking directly into the monster's liar.

In my opinion. Of course.

best,

sam
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Unread 01-25-2015, 05:58 AM   #14
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Thanks Sam,do you have any experience with Baclofen?
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Unread 01-25-2015, 09:41 AM   #15
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Good afternoon Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

Yes i have had experience of a simliar drug here in blighty. It is called "Antabuse"..(disulfiram), which reacts violently to alcohol, and Acamprosate, which is more an inhibitor that reduces the brains capacity to release pleasure chemicals associated with alcohol.

Niether worked for me. They didn't because i didnt want to stop drinking. It really is as simple as that.

I was looking for a quick fix. Alcohol was ruining my life and those who loved me, and i simply wanted it to all go away.

Your experience of miserable people, sober, and you dont want to be like that is perfectly understandable until you lift a lid on the coffin of a loved one who believed the very same.

I got very angry with 12 step recovery myself. I had my reasons for being so, and to prmote what you say Re miserable, i remember a chap so vividly, he was 27 days sober and he said this.....

"I worked out with my mate last night that if i live another 20 years, and i dont drink, i will have to go 7.300 days without a drink". Like you i thought, "**** me!, i'll buy you a drink".

I left that meeting, and got drunk.

I totally understood the guy....this is shit. I dont want to live not to live for f'''ks sake.

I ended up in rehabs of 1 description or another through my choice of "wanting life to live on my terms".

Nothing is perfect, and i learnt whilst i was in these rehabs, whilst i thought any help didnt help me and was shit, i managed to stay alive long enough to recognise at all times i looked elsewhere for what i was looking for. Anything that made me look at myself i immediately attacked for looking in the wrong place.

There is a magic pill, its called Stevo.

Be peaceful, be gentle and be strong. Loveness to you Stevo.
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Unread 01-25-2015, 10:25 AM   #16
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Stevo,

I was shocked at myself. I pride myself on my tolerance and respect for other belief systems, and then I went and got stuck in mine! Sorry.

I should not speak on your thread as I have no experience with Baclofen. I do, however, wish you well on whatever road you choose.

Susie
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Unread 01-25-2015, 11:58 AM   #17
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Stevo,

Hi - I have no experience with Baclofen. I will say if it is something you are willing to experiment with then go ahead. Research the issue until you are satisified you are fully aware of the risks to yourself and give it a go. You may in fact be able to have one or two beers and be able to leave it at that.

For myself the thought of using Baclofen (if it does work as prescribed) to be able to drink socially is not something I strive for. There was a time in my early sobriety where the thought of a glass of wine at a meal was idealic. It was exactly that, an ideal. An image superimposed on my brain by media of a candlelit dinner, attractive woman across from me, sparkle of light reflecting off the glass, etc. Societal norms for the masses. Looks great. Today I subscribe to the whole package, just without the wine. I've made my peace with alcohol. I'm an alcoholic and I won't drink. I don't struggle with it. I am tempted by it on occasion but I think it through, do a cost benefit analysis, my life vs. alcohol and so far I come up the winner. If people don't want to be friends with me because I don't drink I am ok with that. I know where alcohol will land me and the days of me being down on myself because Im drunk every night and awake hungover just aren't worth it. Baclofen may be 'the cure' to that but it is the lifestyle I live today that I most cherish. I am at peace without alcohol in my life and I don't feel pressured to drink to fit in.

You allude that you find many sober alcoholics are in fact leading lives that are miserable due to their sobrity. My only take on that situation is there are many miserable people in life that aren't alcoholics. I subscribe to the belief that if your head is always down because you're looking for dog poop so you won't step in it you will find the dog poop. Should you look for the magic, the miracle of life in your everyday existence you will find it. So yes I subscribe to positive imagery well because it works. It has been proven that we will search out and find what our minds are actively engaged in.

Sobriety is a goal but I also want to live an engaging, thoughtful, positive life. Sobriety just happens to be a major player in my being able to reach all of those goals. When I say my worst day sober is better than my best day drunk I mean it! : )

If Baclofen allows you to drink controlled and enjoy your lifestyle so be it. It is your choice. Stay engaged with this forum. You have obviously given a great amount of thought to this and I respect that.

As an aside I recall talking with my DR. after being sober for a period of time, maybe a year or two and he mentioned he thought I would be able to drink, have a beer or two, drink socially. I weighed the options periodically. Did I want to take that risk after everything I've been through? For me the answer was and is 'no'.

Perhaps Tryn said it best "There is a magic pill, it is called Stevo".

I wish you peace my friend,
Saint
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Unread 01-25-2015, 04:02 PM   #18
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That is a fantastic post Saint.

Find me a happy drinking alcoholic!

Loveness
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Unread 01-25-2015, 06:22 PM   #19
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Hi! I also have no experience with Baclofen and I also don't know much about it.

Stevo, you know yourself, we don't. If you can drink and stop without it affecting any other part of your life, my hat is off to you. I can't do that, with or without any medication. This is just me.

Like Saint, I have accepted where I am, and am grateful for where I have been and what I have been through. I wouldn't change a thing. I life a very fulfilled, happy, spiritually filled life. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I had to stumble a lot, I fell a lot, sometimes flat on my face. However, each little bit got me to where I am today. I am a work in progress, so please pardon the construction debris. When you are completely honest with yourself, you will figure out what you need to do. Either way, we will be here for you! Take care, Jenm
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Unread 01-25-2015, 07:27 PM   #20
Stevo
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Thanks for the responses guys and girls.I did come in here looking for people that have had experience with Baclofen and I now know that I may have come to the wrong place.
I am not really looking for someone to help me to make the decision in the favour of what I want,I am looking for people with experience in this area whether it be positive or negative,so that I can make an informed decision.
Your words are great words Saint and they ring true to the many successful AA members who's goal is to stay sober at all costs,whether they enjoy sobriety or not.Tryntryagain Antabuse is nothing like Baclofen,and yes most alcoholics do drink on it I have seen many people do this.
You all sound to me like what Joe and Charlie would call good AA members and I myself could be called that too.I still have an issue with seeing friends die in recovery because the idea of picking up a drink was worse than killing themselves(in the fellowships there seems to be a cultural belief that busting is so final that some decide to suicide rather than find a temporary solution).I saw 3 people do this in the last 6 months one of them was my best friend(he had been sober for 8 years and left 2 beautiful daughters behind).This event has left me feeling that there is a fundamental flaw in the fellowship and it's culture.I do not want to draw attention away from all the good that is done,but I am left with certain questions that need to be answered for my own recovery.
Can anyone point me in the right direction to find a forum or the like where I might be able to reach the people that I am looking for?
I am truly appreciative for the time that you guys have spent responding and look forward to interacting more with you all in the future.

Last edited by Stevo; 01-25-2015 at 07:30 PM..
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Unread 01-25-2015, 09:27 PM   #21
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Keep us posted Stevo. There are many avenue's to sobriety. I have heard Baclofen discussed here but very infrequently.
I am saddened to hear of your friend's death. My condolences.

Regards,
Saint
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Unread 01-25-2015, 09:43 PM   #22
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Stevo, I really wish you the best. We all have different ways & I hope yours works for you.

I have knowledge on Baclcofen.

This is not a A.A. link. I do not want to promote A.A. I try to just pass on a simple message. For me I can't drink alcohol. I did that for 42 years until I was 2 & 1/2 months shy of 61. I always put my wants 1st. My way or the highway. Three divorces, fired from my career job & all I ended up to be was a bitter man.

I can tell that you have been in A.A. It is not working for you. AA. is a program I use with other things to stay sober. I have a real problem with god as being a higher power. I do not let that thinking of mine get in the way of working my program to the best of my ability.

I only come in here to keep my mind focused on what I have to do to stay sober. I pass on what has worked for me.

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Unread 01-25-2015, 10:07 PM   #23
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Hello all,I relapsed this past new years cause I convinced myself I could drink some beer instead of my normal bottle or long binge of vodka ,Convinced my girlfriend it was fine so she wouldn't worry but it kickstarted me back into drinking for 2 more days til I ended up in the ER , after I fell ,my Blood alcohol level was .30 something ,its a everyday struggle & sometimes a hour by hour struggle

Travis-scott, Welcome to the site. Come in & tell us more about yourself.

I spoke about my history in the previous post on Stevo's thread.

You are here to get & give support. How are you doing now with the drinking?

I stay in today. I don't worry about not drinking tomorrow. If I wake up tomorrow I have the choice to not drink for another 24 hours. Today if the thought occurs to drink I will think that 1st drink through. I use several other simple messages to give me the strength not to pick up that 1st. drink.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 02:07 AM   #24
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R Lee is there any way that we could communicate privately please?
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Unread 01-26-2015, 07:17 AM   #25
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Hi Stevo, unfortunately, the only form of communication on Addiction Survivors is through posting. We're strictly anonymous and ask that no one post any personal identifying information. We found that way people are more comfortable talking about things under the cloak of anonymity they may not otherwise talk about.

I did a search of Baclofen here and the thread I posted earlier to you and the one by Rambyte you originally posted on are the ones with the most information. Others have asked about it or posted they were going to try it; but never came back. Maybe because it's not FDA approved for alcohol dependence, it's not used that often here in the states; although doctors can write it off label, they seem more amenable to writing prescriptions for naltrexone (either pill or injection) or antabuse.

What is interesting is that there are / have been many clinical trials for baclofen:
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/resul...&Search=Search
So perhaps we'll see more about it soon.

I also found this article: http://www.thefix.com/content/baclom...olism?page=all
In the comments, one person mentions a baclofen forum. Greti Katz is the commenter from 3 months ago. I was hesitant to go there because she said "Those who understand German I offer to visit" but also English is spoken if you have questions. Since I didn't click on the link, I won't post it here in case it's not a real site. And I don't speak German, lol. So click at your own risk.

I also googled 'baclofen alcohol forums' and some posts came/threads came up from different forums. I wonder if you googled it if you'd get different results. Or even google from the UK where it seems to be used more? www.google.co.uk

It will be very interesting to see what comes of it and if it will become an approved medication here.

I hope that's helpful.

Nancy
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Unread 01-26-2015, 09:51 AM   #26
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Thankyou very much NancyB I will endeavour to click on the link you have provided.I did the same search here with Australian Google and no Baclofen forums came up but a link to this forum did.
It is being prescribed for me off label at the moment and as I said in a previous post I am considered Australia's guinea pig,a leading D and A doctor is involved with my progress.I hope too that one day this will become a common treatment as I have had very positive results and it will be FDA approved(I had to do a lot of research and leg work to get myself on Baclofen).The reason there hasn't been a lot of studies is that Baclofen is a very old drug and the pharmaceutical companies are throwing millions of dollars at newer treatments,some of which have been mentioned in previous posts.It is very exciting for the alcoholics of the world what Dr. Ameissen has discovered yet most have never heard of it.It usually takes about 20 years for the medical professionals to come on board and accept such things as effective and standard practice.The lack of money being thrown into doing the double blind randomised testing that is required to begin changing doctors thinking on such things along with all of the laboratory testing is a shame.Revelations of the possibilities of Baclofen with drugs and alcohol only really began coming to the light about 10 years ago and with the release of Dr. Ameissens book in 2009 these revelations began to become aware to the public.There is still a long way to go before Baclofen treatment becomes common practice and an accepted treatment for the addict or alcoholic.
I completely understand that anonymity is a foundation for this forum and apologise for publicly asking to privately talk to someone on here.The persons previous post stated that they had knowledge of Baclofen and I was hoping to make contact for this reason.
Thankyou so much again for all the information that you have provided.
Stevo.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 10:27 AM   #27
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Good afternoon Stevo, bright blessings to you.

No it is not similar to antabuse, I am sure Dr Ameissens research, very credit worthy. I hope you find a pathway forward with that.

I have worked with Dr Anne Lingford Huges around the brains response to both alcohol with medication, and without. She has done many brain studies to conclude a 12 year study. (She is China as i write). I have been partied to alcoholics brains infront of me in colours. What "lights up", what "shuts down", what stops lactic, what stops dophamine, endorphines to that part of the brain. I know a great deal about the psycho-sensual pleasure pathways of drugs, including alcohol. I also understand how those senses can be blocked.

Do i think this a pathway forward, via meds, for an alcoholic looking for sobriety? Having spent an holistic journey both as user and provider of support, my experience tells me that those that "sustain" sobriety using another drug as a comprehensive way foward, they are the ones that end up "miserable".

If you want to use and enjoy, and want something to stop you "going over the top", there is not one on the market my friend. There are some medications that can support you into sobriety, i can assure you i am more than aware of Baclofen.

I have found this forum to be a place where all those that have tried everything else come. For me that means whom i am speaking to by default has experienced what i thought no one else has touched. I found out that when i got ugly and angry, when i threw as much shit as i could here in my death throws, i had now done 6 rehabs, 30 years of therapy, every, i mean EVERY drug known to man illegally and prescribed.........my rage....my anger at killing myself brought me here..........................

I was so imploding, i reached out but didn't want to here. I wanted my own dialogue given back to me. It didn't happen. I exploded.

Finally, although i am from Blighty, i was in New York after 9/11 at The Who concert. (As aside.....the only time i have experience the world, "perfect")......i was bollocks on alcohol and cocaine, and all those around me were not. I can remember when a certain set came on, (i am a musician), it was "We won't get fooled again"...........of course those around me it meant what it should have done, while they were whooping and hoolorin, i was in tears, my 9/11 is alcohol.

My goodness i do hope i am not offending, imagine you are the twins. Imagine the incoming is a bottle.

I have said enough.

May i suggest you ditch the information, and tune into the love?

Be strong my friend. Loveness to you Stevo.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 10:50 AM   #28
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R Lee is there any way that we could communicate privately please?
Stevo, We can not contact anyone privately on this site.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 05:49 PM   #29
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I appreciate what you are trying to say but find your last post a complete contradiction.I would suggest that you stop trying to find a way to relate to me Tryntryagain.You never will.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 09:48 PM   #30
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Stevo,

I feel protective of the people on this site who give so much of their time and themselves to offer help to others.

I understand that you are suffering. I also know that you sound angry at the world. Please don't take it out on those who are only speaking from their own experience and wish to offer you hope in one form or another.

One of the greatest things about this site is the tolerance, compassion, and respect that we share.
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Unread 01-26-2015, 09:49 PM   #31
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By the way, IMO, all of our lives are contradictions. We are human.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 05:20 PM   #32
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Good evening Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

I was, and will continue to, only try to help you untangle the issues you are struggling with.

I am not trying to do anything else other than try to put myself in your situation given what i know. When i "googled" "help me", the folk that make this forum work, "R Lee's, Carly, Saints, Nans, Nancy, Jenms, the mainstays if you like, they were all i knew when i came here.

Every single one will tell you how i threw the kitchen sink at them. 12 step, AA, o told Saint to put his head down a toilet, R Lee to flush said toilet, i didnt want thier help, i just wanted someone to know how i couldnt find any.


Grrrrr,i was soooo angry. I went to sleep angry, woke up angry, and didnt know it.

Whislt i was drinking i would "unleash" my shit here, find weakenesses and attack them. I woould go to bed thinking ....seeeee?......i've been chucked out of here to.

Oh...i dunno, i would have told Saint he was full of shit and why, and the next morning, i knew i had said "something", (couldnt quite remember what), and would expect the usual "go **** yourself" response, which i was well ready for, but he would tell me to thinkthrough the first drink. His love, and understanding of me did not go away, even if i was finding it difficult to understand myself.

Re "Stop trying to relate to me, you never will".....errrr, i'm afraid i cant help you there, i can't help it.

Loveness to you Stevo.
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Unread 01-27-2015, 05:43 PM   #33
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Tryn,

How far you have come. No anger, just an honest attempt to understand and relate.

Susie
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Unread 01-27-2015, 06:08 PM   #34
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Stevo,
No doubt about it. Addiction kills, in many different ways. It is an insidious disease. We are all addicts here attempting to stay sober. That we all have in common. Share what you have learned in sobriety. What worked for you, what didn't. I'm confident that science will eventually find a treatment for those suffering. Until then we have each other.

Regards,
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Unread 01-28-2015, 12:57 PM   #35
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good luck on your journey and let us know what works for you
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Unread 01-31-2015, 09:25 PM   #36
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Thanks for your kind responses,my internet has been cut for the last 3 days so I haven't been able to check the forum.This has never happened before but I have a 15 year old daughter who has been home on school holidays who has been using the computer constantly ha.
Not so sure that I am angry about what I have seen,I am fully aware that this disease is a killer and have come to accept my state as an alcoholic/addict.All things are out of my control.
I definitely didn't come in here to create havoc and throw my so called anger around,quite honestly I am beyond that sort of behaviour.What has been presumed as anger is actually me using my abilities to deduce situations and apply logic without fooling myself that I am possibly somewhere that I am not.Ofcourse this does not limit my ability to have imagination and remain open to possibilities.I would encourage the reading of We Agnostics if this last statement is a little hard to understand.
On the 30th of January I racked up my first year clean and sober and on the 25th of February it will be 2 years since I have been drunk.I have worked the steps thoroughly and continue to work 10,11 and 12 daily.I have done all of this with a sponsor(who strangely has not even tried to get in touch with me to offer congratulations for my first year clean and sober).I am a person who truly believes,lives and accepts spiritual principles.With all this said I still have not changed my stance that there is a fundamental flaw in the culture of AA today.The first 100 had very different attitudes towards recovery with a sense of duty that is rarely seen these days.The focus was on on helping the still suffering alcoholic and this did not mean the still active alcoholic.Anyway I am not here to debate my perceptions of the modern day fellowship.
I agree with Saint about how science may one day have a so called cure for alcoholism,and I actually believe that it may even be here now in the form of Baclofen.I also believe that God whoever or whatever that may be has created people with the knowledge to create such things.It is truly a shame that the research that is needed to help so many isn't really being done to the extent that is required to become an everyday option to the still suffering alcoholic.This too is out of my hands haha.
I do enjoy the interaction with other recovering people on this forum especially as I am a very internet operative sort of person,it seems easier for me to relate to people via a computer than it is in the real world.I believe that this is due to the extreme nature of my PTSD.For a long time I have been aware that most people cannot relate to me,this is not me crying out for friendship and/or fellowship but a fact.I am not just in the"too hard basket,"I actually personify it.This is why I stated to Tryntryagain that "you never will."
Most people stumble across forums like this in a state of morbid despair and hopelessness,therefore I can understand why there is a presumption that someone may be angry or in need of some uplifting.I though have completely self examined and am just looking for as I said in my first post someone with experience with controlled drinking whilst on Baclofen,positive or negative.Alas I am now aware that I must look elsewhere for this.I will continue to try to be a part of this community as I have already found that I enjoy the interaction(although I am more of the type of person who tells it how it is rather than tiptoe around the truth in the hope of not hurting anyone's feelings).If this is acceptable LOL.
Long winded,yes.Unoffending,hopefully.My perception,absolutely.
Cheers guys Stevo.

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Unread 02-01-2015, 11:42 AM   #37
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Stevo, Good job. Keep doing what you are doing & you will be fine.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 12:44 PM   #38
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Good afternoon Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

I often find myself not relating to people and events because i havent had those experiences. Over time in this forum, i just ended up reading posts that spoke to me, not about how to give up etc, just the same as me. Some here drink, some don't. Some i expect just read thinking we are all bonkers, but a simple truth is we all found this site because we had concerns for ourselves and our use. I truly believe that all this forum is is just about sharing our feelings, our storys, our struggles because we dont want alcohol to ruin first and then kill us.

If there are a billion alcoholics on the planet there will be a billion different recoverys. A billion ways to get what you want.

For me the trick ended up being knowing what i wanted. I came here not to find out, but to see what everybody else wanted, and here i am. I still do not know what i really want, but i now know, what i dont want. At nearly 49 i should be well on my way to getting what i want, alcohol held me back from everything.

Whatever works for you, go for it.

Be peaceful, be healthy and be strong. Loveness to you Stevo.
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Unread 02-03-2015, 11:08 AM   #39
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Stevo,

We don't mean to preach, but this is an open forum, so we say what we think. Sometimes it may not be what others hope to hear, but recognize it comes from genuine concern. Take it or leave it.

Good luck to you.
Love, Susie
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Unread 02-04-2015, 11:32 PM   #40
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https://baclofenalcoholusaforum.word...e-is-a-drug-2/
I know that this is not definitive proof that Baclofen works and I am not in any way trying to claim that it is the so called magic bullet but it seems to be working for me and hopefully one day can work for many other alcoholics and addicts.This is a short summary of what it is about and what is going on,I thought that maybe you guys might be interested in having a read.
Cheers Stevo.
P.S. The link to the video about why relapse occurs is quite interesting especially when it talks about how Baclofen affects the brain.

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Unread 02-05-2015, 01:30 AM   #41
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Interesting article Stevo. Watched the video also. Dr. mentioned her hope that medication and behavioral treatment would help to 'reset' the brain. Interesting, thanks for sharing and am glad to hear Baclofen is working for you. Have you experienced any negative behaviors, side effects with Baclofen use. For example, loss of appetite, loss of sex drive....

I have always found it interesting that since I stopped drinking I crave sweets on occasion. Once the sugar craving is satisfied I can go for periods of time before feeling the urge. I liken it to binge drinking. Interesting stuff.

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Unread 02-05-2015, 02:30 AM   #42
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Hello Saint,
I am glad that you have found it interesting.In regards to negative side effects I had a little nausea at the beginning but nothing too bad,I find that I will only sleep an average of 6 hours a night these days but still wake up feeling like I have had a great nights sleep.
I have no loss of appetite infact I probably eat better now than I have in years and my sex drive is probably functioning better than it has in years too.As Baclofen is a GABAb agonist that causes a relaxation effect sex is actually better due to me not being in a heightened state of anxiety.I would like to add that when I say relaxation effect I don't mean like valium or other downers,Baclofen has no euphoric effect at all and me feeling comfortable in my own skin has many positive outcomes including a lesser chance of picking up a drink or drug.
The list of possible side effects that came with my first prescription was enormous but the drug companies have to do that these days because of liability.
Drowsiness is something that is associated with Baclofen but I have not experienced this and I am on quite a high dose.
Every person is going to have a different experience I believe but essentially for an alcoholic the positives outweigh the negatives and if you are like me there are very few negatives.
The sugar thing is something that I can fully relate to and find that I too will occasionally go on a sugar binge(pastries and donuts are my thing haha).It is because alcohol and sugar are very similar at a molecular level(fermenting fruit creates alcohol and sugar is required in the alcohol making process).The Big Book actually suggests to carry lollies around with you in early sobriety to ease cravings.Back when the Big Book was published I don't think they would have known the significance of this great piece of information but today with modern technology it is well and truly proven to be accurate that sugar relieves cravings temporarily anyway.
Great to chat again,cheers Stevo.

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Unread 02-09-2015, 01:42 AM   #43
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Just popped in to say g'day and let you know that my research is going well.I still have not gone ahead and done the controlled drinking experiment but from a lot of what I have read I am definitely leaning towards doing it.I have put a call out on another forum for any negative outcomes that anyone who has tried this may have experienced.As yet though I have only received positive responses,it seems that with Baclofen quite a few raging alkies can now drink sociably and without the worry of the allergy kicking in.
Anyhow I hope that y'all are well and my findings are not deemed to offensive to warrant a response.
A big g'day from Australia to all who have responded previously and I hope that you are well.
Cheers Stevo.
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Unread 02-09-2015, 10:47 AM   #44
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Good luck Stevo.
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Unread 02-09-2015, 12:20 PM   #45
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Good afternoon Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

This sugar thing is a consistant amoungst recovering addicts. Indeed alcohol contains a deal of sugar, although the NTA, (National Treatment Agency now PHE, Public Helath England) in Blighty became aware that drug addicts felt the very same. A study was done in 2009 recognising that dopamine and endorphins were the consistent pleasure chemicals released in active addiction. The part of the brain that releases those chemicals will produce those chemicals before pleasure is obtained, hence cravings. The "pleasure principle" can effectively be placated by sugar/sweeties. (Hence AA's 12 step lollipops)

So convinced were the NTA of these studys that they went about trying to enable clean time or sober time in using addicts by introducing various activitys they thought would produce the chemicals created by use, "naturally". So what caused the pleasure chemicals? So many things. That it is individuals choice was quite obvious, but it was creating eclectic pathways, ways inwhich other pleasure was derived from, Art therapies, physical acitivities, etc, quite focused to the individual.

The "one size fits all" was never going to be a direction that was going to "work". It turned out the most asked for was excercise. So simple. It was not allowed incase said participating addict dropped dead and said organisation was sued.

I still would suggest that anyone wishing to chose sobriety, drink socially, abusively or inbetween holds that choice. Meds can enable any of those choices. Surely at the end of the day i can put a pill in to stop, a pill in to start, and another pill that can't quite make its mind up. I find sharing knowing i do not know what i want, an effective pathway amongst others.

I do not know any raging alkies, i know some struggling alcoholics and some recovering alcoholics, all of whom try to uphold the most of dignity they can muster. For me those are the foundations.

Be peaceful, be healthy and be strong. Loveness to you Stevo
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Unread 02-22-2015, 02:20 AM   #46
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G'day guys,
Just thought I would drop in and say a quick hello.I have decided that I don't need to worry too much about doing the controlled drinking experiment as I have pretty much attained indifference to alcohol(thanks to Baclofen) and I will just take each day as it comes.
I realised that I was becoming somewhat obsessed for lack of a better term with the idea of the experiment and I didn't need to worry myself about it.What I have realised is that I am quite indifferent to alcohol now and whether I do the experiment or not it doesn't matter.So I am not going to be running out to buy beer just to see if the compulsion kicks in.
I have realised that complete abstinence can be just as much of a fear filled existence as active alcoholism and I don't want to be alcohols slave anymore whether it be sober or drunk.
Since I first posted in here I have spoken to quite a few people who are taking Baclofen as a treatment for alcoholism and a high majority of them can now have a drink without the worry of their lives becoming a complete disaster.They live in the place that I have realised I can have which is a place of having a choice again without fear.
I would like to thank everyone once again that has contributed to this thread because if I didn't stumble across this forum I wouldn't have been lead in the directions that I have now gone and found out what I have.
It is true that Baclofen is not FDA approved but there are people out there who can make a lot more money out of suffering alcoholics than recovered ones and there is also an anti Baclofen lobby which operates quite successfully with not a skerrick of real proof that debunks the effectiveness of Baclofen.I put it to you aswell that if groups such as AA really wanted to see alcoholism curbed or atleast slowed down they too would be promoting Baclofen instead of saying that no magic bullet has ever been invented(with cliches such as pills are for dills).This attitude only serves to keep people ignorant.Obviously some pills can cause more damage than anything else,I refer to benzos and some antidepressants etc.Baclofen has a reported success rate of 70%,is safe if you are not too affected by possible side effects(and some are which has caused them to cease their treatment)and does not create a tolerance like other options that are FDA approved.You have to ask yourself why is this not being promoted more?
I hope that you guys don't see this as an aggressive attack on what is commonly believed about approaches to recovery but as the words of someone who is truly excited that a new age of possibilities has come for the still suffering alcoholic.
There is no money in pharmaceutical companies testing and trying to promote Baclofen as it is actually a very old and well documented drug(which is why it is known to be safe)that has had its patent run out and is now considered generic.What the pharmaceutical companies are doing is trying to create similar drugs that will have less possibilities of side effects and the same result.This is a wonderful thing and Baclofen is what we have to thank for it.Generations to come may never have to go through what we have gone through if they find that addiction has become an issue for them.I find this very exciting as I am from generations of alcoholics.I have children and the last thing that I would like for them is that they go through what I have.
Anywho life is life and I hope that you are all well.
Cheers Stevo.
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Unread 02-22-2015, 07:17 AM   #47
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Hey Stevo,

There're lots 'n lots of folks who can enjoy a drink or two, or three or.....without suffering any ill effects from alcohol. No doubt, lots of people exist that can use alcohol without becoming soul ravaged alcoholics.

Baclofen may well be a medication that helps the alcoholic who wants to do such a thing, who wants to resume drinking. Your anecdotal evidence certainly supports that notion.

Still, I can't help but to wonder why. In fact, I've asked you this same question in a couple of previous posts: why, if a person has suffered the often hellish heartaches and other repercussions of alcoholism, WHY would h/she ever want to drink "socially" again? What, I really 'n truly wonder, is the upside to social imbibing? Especially since there is so much to fear.

Is it the taste? The conviviality? The social/business pressures and/or business demands?

Bottom line, based on MY own (and, yep, anecdotal) experience: One does run the RISK of relapse. I mean, for certain, if one has ever been an alcoholic (drunk?), there IS a risk of relapse anytime one tries again....to drink alcohol, I mean.

Really, is it actually worth it? Worth the risk. See, I very nearly destroyed my life, very nearly caused the ruin of my family, every time I risked using, even when I assured myself that, this time, I would use rationally.

Stevo? Tell me, please, what is the upside to this? Truth is, maybe I'm just plain missing it.

Finally, I recognize that this post is, I guess, a direct challenge to the concept that Baclofen can, in any way, "free" the alcoholic to drink again without negative consequences---and that, furthermore, it's simply a useless and unnecessary "freedom."

Thing is, maybe I'm wrong. It's just one ex-junkie's opinion.

Stevo, if you can live a good and meaningful life as a drinker, then...well, good for you. Go with it. Good health and God's speed.

best,

sam b
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Unread 02-22-2015, 09:11 AM   #48
Stevo
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Hey Sam,
The conviviality is definitely one of the things,also the ability to have a choice again is something that is what truly will bring freedom from alcohol.You see with Baclofen it creates an indifference which allows me to say hey I don't really think I will have a drink today,or if a friend says "Stevo,would you like a beer?"I can then if I choose say "sure why not,"because alcohol hasn't got me by the balls anymore and now I am truly free to have a choice.
I,thanks to Baclofen have been given more freedom than abstinence could ever offer me.The ideas that abstinence and a spiritual way of life are what is needed to maintain recovery have helped very few,infact abstinence could be described as torturous and has been described as just that by many actually.
AA was really all there was to offer people for a long time and God bless AA for all the help that they did for the very small percentage of people that actually made it to their death beds still sober,but it is something that is truly becoming outdated and most even if they are not willing to admit it know this.
Anecdotal?I have derived my beliefs about the fellowship from many years of being around them.I spent 5 years sober in AA in my mid to late 20's and another 2 years up until recently(I will add here that I am still sober,I just do not attend regular AA meetings and am quite at ease with this).I have found AA to be very helpful in the early days of recovery but completely substanceless except for ideals which really make no sense once the easy part which is not picking up the first drink is no longer an issue.I have worked the 12 steps thoroughly and have read the Big Book more than most(I will add here that it is a truly wonderful and I believe blessed piece of literature)and still find the whole fellowship not enough to maintain a peaceful recovery,actually in the fellowship is where you will find a lot of very very sick people.Everything that I stated in my last post was not accompanied by evidence but I did consider supplying it.I did not because I feel that I don't need to,I am not trying to sell anything to the good people on this forum.I am simply sharing where I am coming from.If anyone is truly interested then they can do what I have done and find it themselves.It is all online.Reports,studies,experiments,testimonies,you name it it is out there.Not penned by radicals and fanatics but by respected medical figures and publications.
The idea that to drink is to die is not so true Sam,it is a very effective brainwash that has come out of AA and was adopted by medical structures in their own approach to dealing with alcoholism and addiction because that was the best they had at the time.Now there are new approaches which have been tested by many who thought that they too could never drink safely again but have found that indeed they actually can(if they choose to,I have come across people who have chosen to remain abstinent even whilst on Baclofen,they now have that choice).
In abstinence there is still a fear of alcohol even if it's not what the abstinent person wants to admit but it is there.In the freedom of choice to drink safely or not at all depending on how you feel at the time there is no fear.
I want to be the man that has the freedom to say alcohol is no longer my ruler but I am now the master of what had me as a slave for so long.I actually think that that is what every alcoholic wants,dont you?
In conclusion according to AA,the great obsession of every alcoholic is that he will one day be able to drink safely as other men do.These are not my words but the observation of the fellowship and yes I too want what every other alcoholic wants and that is to be able to drink safely like other men do.Does that answer your question my friend?
Baclofen is doing just this for people all over the world.
Cheers Stevo.
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Unread 02-22-2015, 05:25 PM   #49
Sam Bailey
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Hey Stevo,

Truth is, we could post 'n post 'n post our thoughts, our opinions and our "proof," both anecdotal and scientific, about alcoholism and "controlled drinking" without ever coming to an agreeable conclusion.

While I disagree with nearly every point/conclusion you make, the fact is neither of us will ever persuade the other that an alcoholic can/cannot consume alcohol again.

In my experience, an alcoholic does not want to just take a drink. An alcoholic takes a drink to get drunk. And at some point, even after a day, a week, maybe even a month of controlled drinking, that same alcoholic, who now believes that he is the Master of His Fate, will want to get, well, just a little high, just a smidgen drunk. A real alcoholic doesn't want to enjoy an occasional beer, or highball, or shooter...a real alcoholic wants to alter his reality to some degree, great or small.

With Baclofen, used properly, you believe that such a thing is possible...that with Baclofen, an alcoholic can have a drink without falling back into the drunken abyss---and can therefore enjoy a more complete, more pleasurable and altogether more normal life.

I think I've stated this correctly. Yes? No? Uh, hope so.

Still, I just do not see what the "upside" is for this new "controlled" drinker. I mean, really...how is one's life better or more complete by having a beer or a shot with dinner, instead of drinking a Pepsi or glass of Sweet Tea?

Wait! Sorry. Here I am, arguing the point again. My bad. As noted, we simply are not going to agree.

Finally though, I will make one additional point. All the stuff about AA and all the assorted medical literature, all that collected angst and controversy, it's all just rattle and noise that gets in the way of a simple truth.

That truth? One simple question. Ok, a brief collection of them, I guess.

If a person has, or has had, a problem with booze, can he/she ever drink again? What're the pros; what're the cons? The pluses and minuses. Etc., etc.

If one decides to do it, is it, or is it not, going to harm one's life, leading, this attempt to drink again, to one's ultimate destruction?

Is it worth the risk?

Maybe yes. Maybe no.

Ok, that's the question and now? NOW I'm done. Ha!

Whichever way you go, Stevo, I DO wish you the best.

And remember, I'm just a recovering dopefiend, full of opinions and who knows what else. Ha!

best,

sam b
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Unread 02-23-2015, 01:07 PM   #50
Tryntryagain
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Good afternoon Stevo. Bright blessings to you.

Sam, great posts.

Stevo. I am a lifelong alcoholic. Because of that dsyfunction i have had every intervention and subsequently gone onto to work with those of my kind. Addicts.

There is an air of piasy that i think effects a response. I have never met an addict of any sort that wanted to be one. I have never met an addict that can control it. I have met all of the above and they are no longer with us.

Sooo, the debate is.....are there drugs that can control addicts? Those that can make you physically ill, or inhibitors, i am afraid likie it or not, those are your options.

Yes there are.

On 1 hand you'll have those taking pills that might very well kill you if you "turn left into the pub", and other pills that if you do, are supposed to "deflect" the enjoyment. Trust me, you do want Tryns post around that.

Look. Remember back in the day folk that took drugs were called "wasted", well that is what we know it to be. The reason alcohol hurts us so very much is not just what we behave like to those we care about, but it denys the life that can be had without alcohol. Alcohol is just the very same. Each drink for us, is a waste of us and what and who we are and what we could be.

Stevo, essentially you are looking for another drug to stop another drug you take being too destructive?

I will talk to you all day around chemical interventions and whatnot, but if i drink, the pills just change colour.

Strength and loveness to you Stevo.
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