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Unread 03-27-2008, 01:47 AM   #1
content
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Default What Does Bup. Feel Like?

I am really wanting to get off of lortabs. I have been taking three a day for a year. I have on left and there are NO pills anywhere in this town. I have fibromalgia and used them for pain but am dependant now. How bad will my withdrawl be? When will I start withdrawing? Tomorrow?


What does the Bup. feel like? Will it make me feel weird? Will it make me gain weight?
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Unread 03-27-2008, 02:31 AM   #2
OhioMike
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Honestly, IMO if your taking three loratab you should get with an addiction specialist, a recovery program, a good support person and system and taper off the loratab. Prior to considering Suboxone. If I knew then, when I was taking three vicodin per day, what I know now after going up to over 100 per day, that is what I would have done.

Mike

Also, they have new medications out for fibromialga.
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Unread 03-27-2008, 02:34 AM   #3
content
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Thanks so much for the info. I know I just heard about the new meds for fibro. I forgot the name but I know it starts with an L. At this moment, there is no tapering off. There are no lortabs anywhere so tomorrow will be THE day for the first time in a year...I will have none. I'm kinda scared. What should I do?
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Unread 03-27-2008, 04:59 AM   #4
Sandy23
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yea 3 a day is nothing for some people . tho for you itmight be alot. i was on a kinda low dose of oxycodone. i used alot tho, compaired to others i only used a lil cause theres such diffs in our use. but addiction is addiction. it does not matter how much or how little we used, its how we think and how sick we were/are. if u beleive you need bupe ot get clean i say go for it, it saved my life. good luck and bupe makes u feel normal!
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Unread 03-27-2008, 12:47 PM   #5
spoint1
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Content
The medicine you are thinking of for fibromyaligia is Lyrica.
If you are only taking 3 Lortab a day, your w/d will probably be fairly mild. You can expect some achy bones / joints, runny nose, yawning, goosebumps, some restless legs, possibly nausea and diarrhea, and insomnia. These w/d symptoms are genrally gone or much better by 7 days. You can treat the diarrhea by taking Immodium, and the aches & pains with tylenol or ibuprofen. Benedryl (diphenhydramine) helps with the insomnia, as do good books to entertain you while you're sleepless. Make sure you are eating a healthy diet, drink plenty of fluids, rest when you can, but push yourself to get out and get some gentle exercise, like a walk.
It will pass. Good luck to you, may you stay drug free!
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Unread 03-27-2008, 12:52 PM   #6
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Hi content and welcome. Hopefully your withdrawals will be minimal and not interfere with your day-to-day life.

To add to what spoint1 posted, here's a thread that has all kinds of suggestions to help deal with withdrawals.
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3268

Nancy
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Unread 03-27-2008, 01:08 PM   #7
Mike
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by content

I am really wanting to get off of lortabs. I have been taking three a day for a year. I have on left and there are NO pills anywhere in this town. I have fibromalgia and used them for pain but am dependant now. How bad will my withdrawl be? When will I start withdrawing? Tomorrow?
Why do you think you need addiction treatment? From what you've told us, you don't seem to be addicted at all, only slightly physically dependent, and that is normal and not a reason to seek addiction treatment. From what I've read you should either, stay on them or taper off them, but it doesn't look like you need addiction treatment. You should read this and save yourself a great deal of time money and hassle. http://naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3930
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Unread 03-27-2008, 02:24 PM   #8
OhioMike
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I agree with Mike. Examine your situation carefully. I say that for two reasons. #1. you are a chronic pain patient. you are taking the medication for a real medical issue. #2. Even though you have been taking the Hydro for a long continuous time, you are staying well within safe daily dose range.

Please understand, I am not offering this to talk you out of Suboxone, only to hopefully help you best sort out your personal situation, so you can achieve the best out come. Suboxone is a very good medical tool for the disease of addiction. However, it is a strong medication and even a small amount of Suboxone is going to be greater than what you are taking now and very well may not provide you the pain relief you need.

I really think you need to have a heart to heart with your doctors. Express your concerns, sort out where your at and go from there. Maybe they can start you on the new Fibro medication and in the process wean you off the Hydro.

If you go cold turkey off the Hydro now, you should expect to feel as though you have the flue really bad and maybe some anxiety. After 3 - 4 days it should begin to let up some, but, you will feel pretty sluggish. After a week you will still be sluggish, but, a good diet and getting active will help that. You may or may not have some PAWS.

I really feel that you need to get with your doctors and plan out a good treatment plan. One which meets your pain issues and addresses your concerns about being on Hydro for too long. that is my best suggestion. Be calm, collective and address this as a nuts and bolts issue which there are answers for.

Mike
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Unread 03-27-2008, 02:41 PM   #9
PLady
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Hi Content!

I also suffer from fibro & CFS, so this is the main reason I got on pain pills in the first place. My doctor gave me Vicodin (2-per day).I was on these about 10 yrs.
Previous to that I took oxycodone for severe headaches and I took these for approx. 20 yrs. @ 1-2 per day. I know I was dependant, but probably not addicted. But, everytime I tried to stop, I always got back on.

My real "problem" began about 4 yrs. ago when I started "supplementing" with my mother's oxycodone & took some of hers "just to keep going". This stuff covers pain & also gives some energy. Since I am on sub I no longer have the energy or pain relief, but I knew I had to do something. I was on about 2 vics a day plus about 25 mgs. oxy. This may not be alot to some, but combined with my 30 use of pain pills, it was enough to know I needed to get help. With sub I am doing a taper and am no longer craving drugs, but it is still hard trying to deal with the pain & fatigue!

You are on such a small dose of vics and only for 1 year, I agree with others here that it would be easier for you to go through a mild withdrawal...I have done this in the past and it worked...uncomfortable for a few days, but I also wished I would of just stayed off a few years ago.

I really do understand your pain...it's not easy living w/fibro!! I am sitting here on my couch and it's 10:30 in the morning & I do not want to move. Lyrica does help some (I have a script for it that I have not got filled), but a lot say it wears off after a few weeks/months and almost 95% say they have gained weight with it. Do you do vitamins/supplements? These help me more than anything!

You are in my prayers today & you will get through this!
PLady
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Unread 03-27-2008, 02:49 PM   #10
TIM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by content

I am really wanting to get off of lortabs. I have been taking three a day for a year. I have on left and there are NO pills anywhere in this town. I have fibromalgia and used them for pain but am dependant now. How bad will my withdrawl be? When will I start withdrawing? Tomorrow?


What does the Bup. feel like? Will it make me feel weird? Will it make me gain weight?
I think you should assess why you want to discontinue your pain medication. If the only reason is that you have become physically dependent on it, that's not enough of a reason to justify discontinuing treatment. Physical dependence is a normal and expected effect of taking opioids, for pain, for an extended period of time.

Addiction treatment is required when the consequences of uncontrollable compulsive behavior are negatively impacting your life.

Tim
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Unread 03-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #11
OhioMike
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Sorry but, I have to chime in again. Tim makes a good point. My wife suffers from Fibro and Arthritis. She suffers daily and some days it simply takes her all the way down. Like you Hydro helps her. However, unlike you she does not take it daily, but, she has been taking it for a good 9 years now. She is treating a medical issue. she has no compulsion, the medication does not effect her life in a negative fashion. She does not put off other things to get the medication, she does not doctor shop, she does not take more than prescribed. from what you have shared, in that regard, you are like my wife. Not like me, when I took hydro. You need to address your medical issues and you need to focus on quality of life.

In regard to the new medication for Fibro, I have heard the negative results from a few people and I have heard really good results from others. One story is particular interesting, but, a bit off topic and long. The point is, it may be as many medications are, how well they work or how well the over all results are, will vary from person to person. Be aware of any and all draw backs, but, do not let that stop you from finding solutions and always go into things in a positive fashion, as that too can effect results.

The new medication did not help my wife very much, but, she is also dealing with the Arthritis.

Hang in there, educate yourself and you will find your answers.

Mike
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Unread 03-27-2008, 03:18 PM   #12
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I too take Lyrica...does it work? Well, at this point, I am believing so, I in some small ways, it must make it so. Or, that is how I chose to look at it.

The main theme I saw in your post 'content' was...there aren't any lortabs to be had, anywhere. Of course I am assuming here, and could be naive, but that statement made me feel you were receiving the medication you are taking for legitimate pain, in a non-legitimate way. Again, if I misinterpreted, or mis-read, please forgive me. I know, when we first confront this situation, we tend to minimize. I DO take you at your word and that is why I'm inquiring as to the way you put this..? If you were receiving your pain medications legitimately and not acting on unhealthy behaviors, then I agree with all the above...in a way. My main question would be, why quit? If you need something for pain, believe me, I know, forcing yourself not to take anything just to be compliant with an antiquated system just isn't going to work, long term. For me, particularly in the beginning, the Sub. stopped the extra pain I was feeling from the years of full agonists (hyperalgesia) and is now, giving my brain time to heal. I hope the day comes when I can avoid going back on the full opiates...but with pain, we didn't chose the pain and as with other conditions, we don't always chose the cure.

I wish you luck and let us know how you are doing!

Elizabeth;}
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Unread 03-27-2008, 03:46 PM   #13
PLady
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Just had to get back on.

Pearl, you are so right on with what you are saying about chronic pain! If one is receiving adequate pain relief with a narcotic and not abusing, then why should they feel any stigma attached to this!

I am also looking forward to a day that I will be opiate free and am praying that something will come along that will take away all the pain...I'm probably dreaming!

There is a "catch 22" when it comes to us chronic pain folks. If I was healthy & only using for the high, I would have crossed this bridge along time ago.

We probably should start a different thread for those of us who are chronic. The support would be great! Maybe Nancy or Tim could point us in the right direction?

PLady
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Unread 03-27-2008, 03:46 PM   #14
OhioMike
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Pearl makes a very good point and one worth you considering. If in fact you are not obtaining your Hydro from a doctor and under a doctors care, then even though you are taking it responsibly for real pain issues, it is vital that you change this practice and get with a good doctor, be honest and work through the solution finding process. If they right away suggest that you do suffer from the disease of addiction just because of the way you are obtaining the Hydro (if that is the case) then I would seek another doctor, as that would be an assumption which could be wrong. Very good point and a very vital one.

Mike

PLady, you are correct, treatment for the disease of addiction for those who do suffer from chronic pain, is different from those who do not. there are serious life effecting issues which still needs to be addressed, effectively. I may never stop Sub completely, simply because the pain issues need to be addressed. However, for me to do that in the fashion I would prefer, I would really like to have a much smaller dose of Sub available.

Also, for pain patients when it comes to sorting out ones situation, addiction or dependence, it can be more involved, at least from my perspective, more things need to be considered.

Mike
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Unread 03-27-2008, 04:09 PM   #15
PLady
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OMike,

Regarding your comments: I have been thinking about this for quite some time. What will I do when I am no longer taking sub? It does relieve some of the pain, even as I go on smaller doses.

Pain related problems have a completely different set of issues (not just dealing with addiction).

When you say a small dose of bupe for the pain...how small would be enough to help? From what I've been hearing, a small dose is what is used for pain.

PLady
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Unread 03-27-2008, 04:38 PM   #16
NancyB
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Hi PLady, here are some links about chronic pain I had posted a while back:

Here's the link to the Bupe-Bema press release from the support forum:
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4862

Here's an older one about Ziconitide, in case anyone here didn't see it. Made from snails. lol
http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3005

"Buprenorphine is used as a pain reliever and to treat opiate addiction. It produces less of a "high" than other opioids, such as codeine and morphine." Suboxone/Subutex.
http://drugabusehelp.com/drugs/buprenorphine/ (Indications/paragraph 1.)

"...and its analgesic effect is due to agonism of ?-opioid receptors."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...rphine#Effects, (Effects/paragraph 1.)

"Buprenorphine has been available...It is a safe and effective analgesic." Use of Buprenorphine in the Pharmacologic Management of Opioid Dependence A Curriculum for Physicians. January 2001, by Eric C. Strain, MD, Editor and Jeanne G. Trumble, MSW, Project Director. Development of the curriculum was supported by the: Center for Substance Abuse Treatment Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration US Department of Health and Human Services.
http://www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/...Curriculum.pdf (pages 3-29.)

"...buprenorphine can be used as an analgesic agent..." Buprenorphine: An Analgesic with an Expanding Role in the Treatment of Opioid Addiction. Susan E. Robinson. (CNS Drug Reviews. 2002. Vol. 8, No. 4, pp. 377-390.)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...2002.tb00235.x

And lastly from the TIP40:
http://www.naabt.org/links/TIP_40_PDF.pdf
PDF page 33, hardcopy page 7:
Buprenorphine has several pharmaceutical uses. It is a potent analgesic, available in many countries as a 0.3-0.4 mg sublingual tablet (Temgesic).

And finally: Pretty interesting early phases of studies to prevent tolerance to opiate painkillers. It's 5 to 10 years down the road, but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...1?OpenDocument



Many pain patients take small dose of bupe (1 to 4mgs - depending on the person and the pain) every 4 to 6 hours to take advantage of any analgesia they may get from bupe.

Nancy
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Unread 03-27-2008, 04:44 PM   #17
OhioMike
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PLady,

Like you, I have accepted the fact that I am always going to have pain issues to deal with. Thankfully for me, I do have some really good days, where I need no help and than other days, when I can do good to get up from a chair. I have also accepted because of this disease that traditional narcotics are out as an option for me. I simply cannot take them as directed. So for now, that leaves me with Sub and over the counter options. thankfully for the most part, I get by with this, even on my bad days. Not perfect, but, I get by.

Then there is another reality for me and that is even at 1mg per day, Sub is blocking enough that should I need emergency care, I could have problems with pain treatment. So my personal goal is this, to find a uniform way to get my daily Sub dose or bi-daily dose down to 1/2mg or a tad less. Then to have enough Sub on hand for the bad days, when I may need to dose more than once for pain control. Thankfully since being on Sub the over the counter aids seem to work so much better, even by only taking one 1mg Sub dose per day and only on the really rough days, do I have to dose more often.

So that is my goal. If they made for distribution in this country the smaller dose size, it would be so much easier for those of us who suffer from chronic pain. Thus, I have been playing around with ways to properly shave and measure my Sub so I can get down to that 1/2mg dose in a uniform fashion and hold there. It is just so much more time consuming to cut and then shave the pills in that fashion. But, by doing so, it is better for me in the long run. I can address the chronic pain as needed and I am not opening myself back up to the daily hell of this disease.

Mike

Also and I don't wish to disagree with the dear lady I often turn to for so much personal advice, but the figures Nancy gave for pain relief dose, 1 - 4mg though that is true, I have to add, if the chronic pain patient could get that dose down to 1/2mg every 4 - 6 hours, I feel the results would be so much better. and better in the long run for the recovery process in general. Just my opinion.

Mike

Content, take notes here and please, share them with your doctor. We have and are living this! Don't be shy about taking suggestions or opinions to your doctor. When I went into treatment I had pages and pages and pages of printed educational material and posts from this site with me. My doctor was open to that and it helped me a great deal.

Mike
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Unread 03-27-2008, 05:03 PM   #18
PLady
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OMike,

Thank you so much for your last post regarding what your plans are regarding using bupe for pain. I will be anxious to see your progress. I feel that we are exactly in the "same boat".

Thanks, Nancy for the threads you provided...I will be reading these this evening, as I have some errands to do.

Content: Hope I didn't get too far off of your original post, but you did receive some great suggestions and answers here.

PLady
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Unread 03-27-2008, 05:19 PM   #19
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Tim's post is where it was at with me. I did get pain medication for a back problem but I deviated from that and started obtaining narc's any way I could--with a lot of "yets" left. The one thing I looked at too that made me understand I needed real help was when I realized I had been using since 1999. My patterns were erratic. I could take up to 60 vic's a week, which I know is mild compared to some I have read here, then I could go without for up to 3 months (early on). My decision was a culmination of length of use,why I used, how I obtained them etc--but especially WHY I took them. I really had very few legitimate pain issues. For me, looking at just one factor, like the amount I took didn't matter anymore. I could cut down to 10 mg vic a day and I would still be addicted as opposed to dependent. Good luck!
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Unread 03-27-2008, 05:30 PM   #20
OhioMike
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PLady,

I have already begun treating my bad days in this fashion, but, I have yet to get my regular daily dose down below 1mg as of yet.

My story is recorded on the site below and the pain management issues will be added soon.

though not completely finished, the site is open.

http://prosuboxone.proboards40.com
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Unread 03-27-2008, 05:40 PM   #21
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PLady,

I agree who all that feel you should just taper off the Lortab. Are they the 10's, 7.5's, or 5's. Three a day will not be a bad detox, but if you've never detoxed before it can be a crummy odeal.

You need to know, that you will have to detox off the Buprenorphine also, and it could be somewhat worse than coming off three Lortab a day.

Just come off the Lortab slowly, take your time and have someone give them to you so you are not in control of your Tabs. Suboxone really has no high, it just gives a person energy to go through the day. Basically, it normalizes a person so they can continue with a productive life.

Doug
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Unread 03-27-2008, 09:17 PM   #22
PLady
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OMike: Your new site looks very interesting & informative. I will check it quite often, since you are, & will be, keeping a chronicle of things you are doing. We Ohio folks must stick together! LOL!

Doug: Sorry your reply post should have been directed to "content"...that's okay though, since I seemed to have taken her/his original post in kind of a different direction.

PLady

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Unread 03-27-2008, 10:46 PM   #23
OhioMike
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PLady, thank you! There will be a chronic pain section added soon. Also, please don't feel as though you interrupted Content's thread, I think your input has directed some conversation which he/she can greatly benefit from. As well as the rest of us!

Mike
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Unread 03-30-2008, 01:10 PM   #24
jackline
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Hi Content, it's been a couple of days since your post, so I hope you are well and off the pills. I also hope you either experienced no withdrawal, or only mild wd after taking 3 Lortabs a day. Since you took the pills every day for a year, my guess is that you would feel some mild withdrawal.

I also got hooked on pain pills due to chronic pain. I suffered with endometriosis for years and eventually I had a hysterectomy. That was in 2001. Right after the surgery I took the pain pills as directed, but along the way I began abusing them (cuz that's what we do) I took them when I had NO pain, and got up to about 6 pills a day. (Wow... I thought THAT was a lot, back then!) But I still didn't realize I was dependent. So when I ran out, I went into mild withdrawal on the first day of no pills. I had no prior experience with wd, so I didn't know what was happening. I thought I had the flu... my nose was running, I couldn't stop yawning, and I just generally felt achy and lethargic. But it all passed within 2 days.

Two years later I was right back on the pills, due to dental problems. Eventually I was using 200 mg of Percs a day (that's 40 pills a day).

You weren't using that much a day, but because you took them every day for a year, you might benefit from a short taper of bupe. It would definitely help you feel little or no withdrawal.

At any rate, I hope by now that you have discussed this with a doctor and got a safe and comfortable treatment. Please let us know how you're doing.
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