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Unread 12-10-2009, 10:04 AM   #1
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Default The 12 Traditions of AA/NA Discussed

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA/NA unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for AA/NA membership is a desire to stop drinking/drugging.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA/NA as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An AA/NA group ought never endorse, finance or lend the AA/NA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every AA/NA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. AA/NA should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. AA/NA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. AA/NA has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA/NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
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Unread 12-30-2009, 12:01 PM   #2
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I have always loved our third tradition in NA. I like to say you cant measure desire.I have known of addicts who were using at meetings before they stopped. I didnt judge them because of our third tradition. I know for me even when I was using for the last 5 years anyways I had a desire tro stop I just didnt know how!
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Unread 12-30-2009, 02:22 PM   #3
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Hey Murph, that is an excellent message!

I had the desire, I mean a real burning desire too for a long time before I was able to step into recovery as well.

Good point Murph and one which plays out often.

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Unread 12-30-2009, 02:53 PM   #4
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That Third Tradition is exactly the one we all need to remember when we feel stigmatized. Generally, discussions of the Traditions I have attended tend to be very dry. There sometimes doesn't seem to be a whole lot to say about them, other than to be glad they are there. One point that has always resonated with me is that, during the period of time in which they were created, many alcoholics and addicts died in the process of figuring them out. It took years of struggle among those early members to hash those traditions out.
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Unread 12-30-2009, 09:29 PM   #5
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I was at a A.A. meeting today & there was a 18yr. old that has been coming to our meetings saying his name & he was an addict. After the meeting I approached him & suggested that to avoid pissing someone off that he just say he had a desire not to drink. He took that very well. He said the N.A. meetings were a joke because they were selling drugs at the meeting & he needed to be where they took soberity seriously. He also told me he did not want to drink. This is a very rural area that don't have very many N.A. meetings.
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Unread 12-31-2009, 12:02 AM   #6
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When I introduce myself I say "hello, my name is Mike and I suffer from the disease of addiction" as I have miss used and abused too many various substances.

IMO, If that bothers another person, then I suggest they ask themselves why.

I do however have three basic versions of my lead, though none of them ever comes out exactly the same, cause I just get up and let it come out.

However, if I know I am in front of a group where alcohol is the predominate drug of choice, then I focus more on how alcohol effected my life, then of course if it a drug crowd, I focus more on that, if it is a generally mixed crowd, then it pretty much covers everything.

IMO, I have found that AA is slowly changing and the hardliners who are fixated on this alcohol only thing are getting weeded out. Anymore too many people have had some problems with both, drugs and alcohol, as alcohol and opiates in particular share so many common factors in how they effect the brain and how readily opiates are prescribed by family doctors.

I still find here locally that NA is still very un-accepting of too many things, keeping their message too narrow and alienating many who need help. Hopefully they will begin to evolve as AA has been over the years. Please don't take me wrong though, I have NA meetings I thoroughly enjoy and many people in NA who I enjoy.

for me, in my heart the doors and seats of 12 step peer support meetings should be open at all times to everyone and anyone seeking help. Heck, I even have CA meetings I go to, just because I really enjoy the people. Coke was never an issue for me and I rarely did it.

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Unread 12-31-2009, 12:12 PM   #7
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Default The third step

My son, who is fighting very hard to maintain his recovery, was trying to describe how it was for him these past three months. He knew people could see him and wonder why he didn't just quit but what they couldn't see was the invisible demon with a knife to his neck, dragging him away from the the life he loved to the addiction he hated. He was kicking and screaming but sometimes that just was not strong enough. The Subutex helped him get his feet under him just long enough to get his balance and fight back. He is still fighting but without the isolation of his addiction. The shame and guilt kept him isolated just like an abused person in an unhealthy relationship. One day at a time. Happy New Year to all of you and thanks for the support you have given me and my family.
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Unread 12-31-2009, 02:09 PM   #8
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The Steps are to the individual what the Traditions are to the group.

Saying I was alcoholic was easy for me! Saying I was an addict was more difficult. That's how screwed up I was! My thinking was....I like AA better (still do) so I am going to keep going to AA meetings. When I raised my hand I would say My name is Angela and I am an alcoholic. I didn't believe I was. So....identifying as one "just to fit in" was easy! In the beginning I figured I could drink "if I wanted to" but, I needed to go to the meetings because I was in an out-patient program. So I went to get my card signed to prove I was there. Of course after failed attempts at staying sober (because I would trigger my disease by drinking) I started to introduce myself as a alcoholic/addict. This caused another problem. The oldtimers would say. This is AA and our singleness of purpose is to help the Alcoholic. If you are an addict they have another program for that. I thought....WHO CARES! What difference does it make how I announce myself! GEEEZE these people are touchy! But....then it was explained to me.
When these Traditions were formed they came from a place of experience also. AA had "evolved" so to speak from a group called the Washingtonians. Bill and Dr. Bob took some of the principals that the Washingtonian's (They were a religious group) had and came up with the Steps we have today. What also happened years later was they took that same experience (The Washingtonians failure) and formed a plan that would hopefully keep AA from collapsing. That is where the singleness of purpose comes in. The Washingtonians applied there principals into helping everyone. They spread themselves too thin. It created controversy trying to be everything to everyone. Eventually Bill and Bob saw this as a warning. After discussion again and again...they decided the Group "AA" needed a way to focus just on the disease of the Alcoholic. The long tedious journey of forming the Traditions began. They are there so "the group as a whole" can survive. As you can see...AA has now helped millions! SO maybe those traditions are worth keeping. Who am I to decide that I need to be different. To give AA's Traditions the utmost respect is my goal. YES...today we have a huge majority of people that are "dually addicted". Definitely many more than when the Traditions were formed. But....the Traditions should still be respected. We can still embrace the newcomer who is suffering and adhere to the traditions too. I do not need to be unique anymore. I don't need to be definant anymore. All that I need to do is focus on helping others. I have a desire to stop drinking today. SO...I identify with alcoholism. Do I think that AA will colapse if I say I am an addict? NO...but if everyone started to identify themselves as this or that (smoker,cocaine,marijuana,pills,mushrooms,shopper, sex,etc,.etc,etc) where would it stop? Do you draw the line at pills? Any person would (or could) potentially say "well I belong in this room too because I am an ______" See what I mean!
What amazes me the most from the Steps AND the Traditions is that they were able to see so far into the future. AA had to be God inspired. They thought of everything.
It seems.....it's working. Other groups have formed from the very basic philosophy.

Just something to think about.
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Unread 12-31-2009, 02:29 PM   #9
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Excellent post, Angela! I think as long as there are humans involved, there will always be conflicts and hierarchies. What seems trivial to one person can be huge to another. What truly amazes me is that a collection of alcoholics could somehow manage to create a program that could hang together long enough to find a way to stay sober and to pass what they learned to others!
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Unread 12-31-2009, 08:43 PM   #10
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gotiang, Great post! I help with a jail meeting. I suggest to the inmates that when they get out & go to a meeting to keep it simple & just say name & I don't wan't to drink today. If they are serious about getting clean from a drug addiction they probably don't wan't to trigger it with alcohol.

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Unread 01-01-2010, 11:05 AM   #11
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Some of the things we do in AA meetings can really turn off newcomers. I always try to let them know that things like stating "I'm an alcoholic (or addict)", saying the Lord's Prayer, etc. are not requirements. Reminding everyone that the ONLY requirement is a DESIRE to stop drinking (using) can ease a lot of concerns.
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Unread 01-01-2010, 02:38 PM   #12
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R. Lee.....good to see you! I haven't seen you post in awhile! Hope the New Year brings you posting more!
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Unread 01-02-2010, 12:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotitang View Post
R. Lee.....good to see you! I haven't seen you post in awhile! Hope the New Year brings you posting more!
Thank you. I have been posting just about everyday on the alcohol dependence thread since May. I just started posting on this thread.
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Unread 01-02-2010, 11:39 PM   #14
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That must of been where I'd seen your name! Welcome!
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Unread 03-01-2010, 04:14 PM   #15
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Tradition 3 and 5 as well as 10 make clear and should answer once and for all the question of suboxone use.

The purpose of a group is carrying a message by desire we meet tradition 3 we try and help others and we do not enter into controversy over outside issues.

Suboxone is clearly an outside issue

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Unread 03-01-2010, 04:18 PM   #16
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addendum

A even broader view of the inclusive nature of these traditions is to suggest a person still drinking or getting high can state they are a member as long as they meet the requirement of desire to stop.

So stop worrying if people in AA/NA have opinions on suboxone. The traditions say they are welcome to their opinions but too bad you are still welcome in AA/NA

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Unread 04-19-2010, 12:15 PM   #17
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1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA/NA unity.



If only the group I used to attend practiced this one!!! There were more cliques in that group than there was in my high school! I watched them ask a 16 year old kid to leave a meeting once because he introduced himself as an addict and it was a closed meeting, only for people with a desire to quit drinking. I walked out with him and talked to him for a little bit, but he was so embarassed he never came back. I really hope he found a more accepting group. That was one of my last meetings also. There were a bunch of "old timers" there with 20 and 30 plus years. I'm sure they were just doing what they were taught, but times change.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 12:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhsurf4 View Post
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA/NA unity.



If only the group I used to attend practiced this one!!! There were more cliques in that group than there was in my high school! I watched them ask a 16 year old kid to leave a meeting once because he introduced himself as an addict and it was a closed meeting, only for people with a desire to quit drinking. I walked out with him and talked to him for a little bit, but he was so embarassed he never came back. I really hope he found a more accepting group. That was one of my last meetings also. There were a bunch of "old timers" there with 20 and 30 plus years. I'm sure they were just doing what they were taught, but times change.
I am shocked and saddened the group asked this kid to leave the meeting! If they felt that strongly, then they could have talked to him after the meeting in a kind way, told him about the open meetings where everyone is welcome, or directed him to NA! This story is really sad, and I hope that kid found some kinder people in recovery. The problem is, first impressions are pretty darn strong!
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Unread 04-25-2010, 04:12 PM   #19
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Hi everybody My names is Jim and I am an......._____________. If I'm at AA I say I m an alcoholic (a Sponsor I had who had 20 years in recovery and who had been a cocaine dealer gave me the suggestion to use the language of AA when at an AA meeting sober vs. clean) I'm somewhat overqualified at NA and find that I have to listen very hard to get a message there. That said NA is where I was introduced to recovery and saw someone that used like I did get clean and have a better life than they could have even imagined when they got clean. The founders of NA got clean in AA. After a little time in recovery I don't need to relate at the level of symptoms so much as get inspired to be a better person and grow along spiritual lines.
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Unread 04-26-2010, 09:24 PM   #20
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Well said Dopesikboy! Welcome
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Unread 04-27-2010, 12:08 PM   #21
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I know folks will not like this but a group has the right to do what it please's as long as it does not effect other groups or the whole fellowship.

Yes the whole issue could have been handled an easier, softer way, however that group wanted to stick to singleness of purpose and an AA group only asks a simple requirement (a desire to stop drinking) They were in the right but of course there are ways to handle it nicey.

My group states "if a person does not think they are alcoholic or think they might have a drinking problem; we ask that you wait outside and we will be happy to speak to you" now say that young man stayed knowing he did not qualify, we'd not throw him out but would speak to him afterwards if he went on a talk about just drug use.

My personal take is if an addict is at a closed meeting, keep you talk "general" you are a guest and it is not your job to try and convert a group to meet your needs. I for one am happy you are there just don't rock the boat with your agenda (a drug is a drug ie)

So the way it is handled is as important as the groups right to do as it wants.

Simple?

Glen





Fair enough?

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Unread 04-28-2010, 11:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theswan View Post
I know folks will not like this but a group has the right to do what it please's as long as it does not effect other groups or the whole fellowship.

Yes the whole issue could have been handled an easier, softer way, however that group wanted to stick to singleness of purpose and an AA group only asks a simple requirement (a desire to stop drinking) They were in the right but of course there are ways to handle it nicey.

My group states "if a person does not think they are alcoholic or think they might have a drinking problem; we ask that you wait outside and we will be happy to speak to you" now say that young man stayed knowing he did not qualify, we'd not throw him out but would speak to him afterwards if he went on a talk about just drug use.

My personal take is if an addict is at a closed meeting, keep you talk "general" you are a guest and it is not your job to try and convert a group to meet your needs. I for one am happy you are there just don't rock the boat with your agenda (a drug is a drug ie)

So the way it is handled is as important as the groups right to do as it wants.

Simple?

Glen





Fair enough?
I agree with you totally. Imagine if we lived in a country where you might form a group and be shut down because someone didn't like it's modus operandi?

I haven't been to a meeting in two decades. I used to go to AA and NA. I used to sit in AA and think it was my "right" to talk about drugs. I know now that I was being disrespectful of AA's singleness of purpose. In those days, I was even more egotistical than I am now. I never could work steps 4-12 effectively. I stayed straight for 17 years on the first three steps. My relapse five years ago has cost me alot financially. But I received blessings from my years of sobriety. I under went two bouts of hepc tx, for a total of 26 months.....12 months on the first tx and 14 months on the second. The second tx rid me of the virus. When I had hep c, I would always have that dull, throbbing pain in my right side. It wasn't very painful but it was always a reminder of what I was carrying. It is important that I remain greatful to the people that made the recovery from hep c possible. I had my last drink on Jan 7, 1988. I stayed in a rehab dorm for two years. They sent me to college. On Oct 20, 1989, I smoked my last kool cigarette. While I was hesitant to post these events for fear of appearing boastful, I think its important to give testimony of what can be given through the helpfulness of others. If it weren't for the help I had, I would have died a long time ago.
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Unread 04-28-2010, 12:08 PM   #23
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Thanks Madison. I smoked kool's also. Gave em' up in 1989

I hope I got the message out that I as a single person do not care if a "pure" addict is helped by AA Good on them!
What gets me is trying to make the whole change for the individual.

Glen
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Unread 05-01-2010, 12:57 PM   #24
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I have always been the sort of person that likes to "examine" things. I like to "think" about the reasons people do and say the things they do. The thinking part is hazardous for me since when we look at what part of my thinking might be faulty, we generally should start with all of it. In my not so humble opinion, there are two reasons why someone objects to the "Hi, I'm yawning skin crawl, and I'm an addict". The first reason is that there are those there who's interest is in keeping the traditions intact. While I haven't been to a meeting in a long time, I support their position totally. The second reason is one of tragedy. There are those there who have replaced alcohol with other drugs. I have done that many times. Many of them are destined to experience the anguish that myself and perhaps some of the readers have experienced. All I can do is maintain good thoughts towards their chances of finding a way out of the spiralling maelstrom of addiction.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 01:27 PM   #25
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Glen your correct, the home group members may decide how they wish for their meeting to be conducted. Thankfully there are enough groups, that one can find what they are looking for or need.

The damage however comes, when a person is turned away and made to feel as though there is no one wanting to help them. Clearly I don't feel that you, yourself would make a person feel that way, but, it can and does happen.

Be it outside the closed meeting or within the closed meeting it doesn't matter, what matters is that the person in need, gets help from the fellowship. ie: Addition is Addiction, when we totally ignore that and place drug of choice above that, to the degree that a person in need leaves not getting any support or direction, then IMO, the group has failed at its core.

We must always be mindful that when that person comes to a meeting, it could be the last opportunity they ever have for support and help.

The same takes place in NA and CA.

Sadly it happens.

Mike
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Unread 05-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #26
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Default Rehabs and singleness of purpose

For my first month of sobriety, I was in a recovery house. We did not have a choice of which meetings we attended, AA, NA or CA. I just decided it was easier to share I am an alcholic, even though once I found narcotics, you could put a gallon of Jack Daniels in front of me and I wouldn't even flinch.

My drug(s) are opiates, benzos and amphetimines, maybe with a little pot, pretty much to the exclusion of all else.

34 years ago I shared I was an addict, because I did not understand, not because I was trying to be different. Fairly soon AA was full of a room full of very large, very tough-looking tattoed angry addicts who would say they were addicts on purpose just to piss off the old timers.

The meeting soon turned to a place you would leave feeling far worse then before you came.

I was there for help, not for a bunch of political B.S., although I can understand the singlness of purpose and the need to keep that otherwise the group starts becoming, (and I am not putting these folks down, but they should not be i an AA meeting): A haven for phsyhotics, emotional anonymous, (yes they have those groups), people from Co_Dependency anonomous who would actually bring in stuffed teddy bears with them and cry about how their inner child was abused.

I ended up leaving the progam for another 20 plus years, swearing I would never go back with those "freaks". That was then, but I live in a large city and the anti-intellectual attitude which surronded AA and the rest of the programs has mostly disappeared. It isn't totaly gone, but thank God it is disappearing.

I would like to think I can get help whereever I go and maybe in the process I can help someone else and spare them the misery I had to go to.

Today, if I am appraoched by people who don't like what I shared, I ask them why to find out if there is any validation to it or they are just some crusty old dimosaur. If they are just a dinosaur who wants someone to rag on, I stick my hand right up in their face and say, "talk to the hand".

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Unread 05-22-2010, 09:58 PM   #27
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Wow, all of the posts gave me something to think about. My drug of choice is pain pills but I am going to AA meetings because of the lack of compliance I found at my local NA meetings. I like the intoduction that says, "name, I suffer from my disease of addiction." That covers it, yet doesn't specify a specific drug or alcohol. I think I will start using that introduction. Thanks for sharing. .......Keep coming back, it works if you work it.
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Unread 05-23-2010, 08:55 AM   #28
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Hi Mark .......... I understand your complaints and/or concerns and I think we have to be realistic in that anytime we deal in a open peer support forum, be it online or in person, that the door is open and that "we" are not going to adapt well to each personality walking through the door.

Since I share some of your concerns I feel I can share that with you. I also believe that is why we need to always place two things in the forefront of our ability to seek good tools to use, be it within the 12 Step community or otherwise. #1. It is about principles or purpose, not personalities or the other persons disease and/or diseases. #2. To keep it real for ourselves, focusing on what we can take and use in a positive fashion for our personal recovery program. Always keeping in mind that we can learn just as much from another's struggles and failures, as we can from their successes, strength and hope!

I know it can be frustrating at times, but, that is where it becomes a personal learning or growth process for us and we need to always shop around for groups which we match up well with.

I agree with you, you should be able to get help no matter the meeting you walk into, as that is the absolute bottom-line and purpose, sadly though as with any "social group" things can get a bit distorted or cliquish.

This is one of the reasons we added this folder to this site and our weekly chat meeting, so there is a place where judging and all types of stigma are left at the door and only support and help are shared.

There are no exact blue prints to recovery, it is different for each of us and as we might share what works for us or someone close to us, we always have to remember, it might not be a good fit for another, but, simply our experience which hopefully they can benefit from in some fashion.

Hi Lulusober ............ I have used that introduction for a long time, my name is Mike and I suffer from the Disease of Addiction, period. What my personal choices were in regard to drug of choice were, is secondary to that. For me, the disease is the same and as we each share many common things, it is still vastly different for each of us.

As I understand the need for us to get good guidance from others who share the same drugs of choice, for me that is what a sponsor is for and ones personal support line. If a meeting is stated in the meeting book as a closed Alcoholic only meeting or home group members only, fine, most likely I would pass on that one, but, if it is not presented that way in the meeting book, then the others attending have a responsibility to help all who show up and suffer with this disease. In our world today the majority find themselves using more than simply one drug of choice, with the opiate addict and the alcoholic being tied more closely biologically than they might first realize.

The important thing to me should be finding a productive way to help the next person, as by doing so, we only validate and strengthen our own recovery program!

Mike
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Unread 06-04-2010, 02:38 PM   #29
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I understand the purpose of AA and NA and I'm not going to say anything about why they do what they do in their meetings because I don't know enough about the programs yet to comment & I would never want to offend....But what I do understand more is that a drug is a drug no matter if it comes in liquid form or pill form. If I abuse pills and make that decision to quit but begin to start drinking alcohol thinking that just because I don't have any issues with alcohol at this point because it is not my drug of choice, I am setting myself up for a relapse. When you obtain abstinence that should include anything that will give you a high and could cause you to want your original drug of choice. I like to think that I'm okay with a glass of wine here & there because my drug of choice is pills but in reality I'm still not leading a clean life. I want my head to be clear so I can make clearer & better choices and if I'm getting buzzed, my thinking is going to be impaired. I just have been told by doctors & counselors throughout the years that a drug is a drug regardless of what form it comes in. I'm a (recovering) addict and if given the opportunity I can abuse anything if given time! That's why I find it sad to hear that people are asked to leave a meeting when they find out their drug of choice doesn't fit the drug they're meeting about. Either way you look at it....every person in that room has had a drug bring them to the point to where they had the desire to want to quit and wanted to seek help. Addiction is Addiction!
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Unread 06-06-2010, 12:13 PM   #30
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When things happen; like someone being asked to leave for whatever reason; the problem is with the individual(s) who take it upon themselves to do these things; not the program Countless numbers of newbies (myself included) have run into this kind of narrow-minded self-righteousness; and have used the experience to justify a decision that "these meetings aren't for me" This kind of thinking (from both the self-righteous jerk who tells someone they don't belong AND the newbie who leaves; never to return) could easily be a death sentence

I wish I could say this kind of stuff doesn't happen; but it does However I can say that things have changed for the better since I started going to meetings You don't have to look too hard to find the answer: "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking (using) The problem we all share is addiction; and the particular substance(s) causing us trouble (at the moment) is really irrelevant I never had any great fondness for stimulants; but for me to begin dabbling with amphetamines would be a huge mistake!

By and large; when it comes to addiction; we pretty much all must diagnose ourselves Doctors and social workers can make the diagnosis; but until we personally accept our disease; we cannot recover Forced abstinence is only temporary; and anyone who relapses after a long period of abstinence experiences the progressive nature of the disease; the lucky ones are able to make it back!
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Unread 05-20-2011, 06:42 PM   #31
FriendNdeed
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AA took a long time to achieve its degree of acceptance in the community. Nobody gave them a break that I can see. Even with AA paving the way, NA also had to wait for real acceptance. Overeaters, Gamblers, and Sexaholics Anonymous are now "paying their dues" and waiting for their acceptance. Those behavior (non-substance) addictions sends the same opiods into the system that substance abuse does. But it will be a while before OA, SA, and GA members can attend any AA or NA meeting without getting an earful from an old-timer. If they're a real old-timer, they can remember when no one took their Problem seriously. Human nature doesn't change.
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Unread 08-23-2011, 07:16 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Madison7 View Post
I agree with you totally. Imagine if we lived in a country where you might form a group and be shut down because someone didn't like it's modus operandi?

I haven't been to a meeting in two decades. I used to go to AA and NA. I used to sit in AA and think it was my "right" to talk about drugs. I know now that I was being disrespectful of AA's singleness of purpose. In those days, I was even more egotistical than I am now. I never could work steps 4-12 effectively. I stayed straight for 17 years on the first three steps. My relapse five years ago has cost me alot financially. But I received blessings from my years of sobriety. I under went two bouts of hepc tx, for a total of 26 months.....12 months on the first tx and 14 months on the second. The second tx rid me of the virus. When I had hep c, I would always have that dull, throbbing pain in my right side. It wasn't very painful but it was always a reminder of what I was carrying. It is important that I remain greatful to the people that made the recovery from hep c possible. I had my last drink on Jan 7, 1988. I stayed in a rehab dorm for two years. They sent me to college. On Oct 20, 1989, I smoked my last kool cigarette. While I was hesitant to post these events for fear of appearing boastful, I think its important to give testimony of what can be given through the helpfulness of others. If it weren't for the help I had, I would have died a long time ago.
IF IT WASN'T FOR HELP ..truth well spoken ..I've
always been a loner...and through recovery have realized
that sometimes the last thing you think you need turns out to
be just that....help and support. thanks for your thoughts.
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