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Unread 04-11-2010, 01:18 PM   #4
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Default It's like you read my mind!!!!

I have strted on my associates in Psychology so one day I hopefully can counsel others with addiction issues. I have many problems with AA,NA actuall any 12 step group. They have no scientific basis to back up their methods ,nor will they allow any to be done because in my opinion it would shatter their silly little world. My favorite point came when I asked a 12 stepper if AA means no booze EVER, NA means no more dope, then I said how sorry I felt for those poor OA(overeater anonymous nenbers who are surely starving concentration camp style cuz surely that means they must never evr eat again. I laughed my ass off and made the person say "what do they learn to do with their food consumption"? CONTROPL HOW MUCH THEY EAT DUH! They were hesitant to admit such sacrilidge but they had to cuz it was the truth. They way I see it no invisible force made me take a drink or snort a line ,nor pop handfulls of painpills and no invisible force has the power to stop me. That must come from within the individual for that shows true determination and a willingness to change. Not taking on another daily addiction which is AA,NA OA, or any /all 12 step programs. KUDOS TO YOU AND FOR STANDING UP FOR YOUR BELIEFS CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
This is a good Issue about stigma regarding the 12 Step that is in another location of this board. I see it everywhere I go, and I think it is reality not just like a delusional perception of mine. Stigma and discrimination is here and there is not many people who are willing to wave a flag and advocate for ex Opieate addicts.

Unfortunately, the biggest stigma and discrimination developers are the Social Services profession. Worse yet is a professional in recovering from
opiate dependence, and getting a felony conviction. One is treated as if
one is a major criminal

I cannot find the web page address, but if you find Emmett Velten, Ph.D., The Truth of Methadone Treatment it posture is similar problem with our general rational that our citizens and professionals look at most Substance Abuse treatment and their patients.

I try to take Bill Clinton's posture about Homosexuality in the military, "Don't ask and don't tell".

Worse yet are the 12 Step true believers who are professionals in treatment centers and who are constantly violating the traditions. The 8 Tradition that says that AA/NA will forever be non professionals, yet we have a lot of professional gurus. The making the patients go to 12Step meetings violation of the 11the Tradition that says is a program of attraction no promotion. Forget about being forced, the fact that ones counselor is always asking patient how they are doing in AA meeting or if the facility is making patients sign attendance, you might as well forget that there is such thing as Anonymity. There are other traditions that they are violating, like they will not lend the AA/NA name to any outside enterprice. Most treatment facilities have out right stolen or AA/NA is allowing them to use their "protocol" as if it was treatment. A lot of those facilities are buy a lot of their books and other materials so I am wondeing if those related facilities are economically supporting AA/NA.

I do not think the 12 Steps is treatment.If you are anything like me, you would want you treatment of any medical condition to be based on research and science. You would want the antibiotic that your doctor prescribed for your infection to have undergone all kinds of rigorous pharmaceutical research (besides some controversy here and there for the most part the FDA does do a good job) making sure
that the medication you have taken does have efficacy, and would do what it promise to do and it is not a placebo effect and does quite a bit of work about the safety, side effects and just make sure that it is an okay medication to take.

I find that the 12 Step abstinence base "treatment, has no science (little at best) base, and they never did care to do much about research or its efficacy anyway as a treatment protocol. As a "treatment" protocol it is at best questionable and controversial. I don’t have any problem with the 12 Step being a fellowship or a society as it is a believe system, they call it spiritual, but numerous federal court have concluded.. The fact is that the 12 Step is based on "spirituality" or religiosity, not reasearch. And we have accepted that it is treatment not based on its characteristics, but rather that it has been repeated to us so much that it is treatment, that we jus t gave up and believe it. But the 12 Step in my opinion dose not meet the characteristics of treatment. When the 12 Step jumped in the 1980s from a fellowship into a treatment protocol it has become dangerously pseudoscience. Although the Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration has provide significant and substantial amount of publications with over 40 plus Treatment Improvement Protocols, based on research and best practice most treatment center if not all treatment centers are virtually ignored all of
the research that is available and want us patients to accept their theories at face value, even though some research are finding that their
theories are inconsistent with research results.

Evidence Research base treatment most become a patient's movement, because it is our treatment not the professional's. I personally believe that we have been betrayed by the social service professionals that prefer to go business as usual instead of studying and begging to provide us substance abuse patients with the best protocols that are already available but are ignored. What I mean is to start providing us with real treatment. Not shit they have been making up by
their hunches and intuition, but real science behind their "professional
opinion". If a professional cannot back up their opinion with some research data or study and notes whether it has been replicated and
the amount of validity and reliability those studies have, the professional
is not providing us with their professional opinion, they are mealy using
their personal opinion given by a person who happens to be a professional

It is obviously easier to do nothing and continuo to be business as usual, than to begging to read research (something they really do, but we assume as patients that they do all of the time). It was disturbing to me when Dowd in 2001 (this study have been replicated with similar results) found that only about 25% of all clinical practitioners in the social sciences (Psychology, Social Workers and Mental Health Counselors) have read a Scientific Journal of their profession since they left college. I think that is shameful. They just practice by mutual agreement of other professionals that agree or not with their theories. In essence license practioners have license to make shit up. As they do not have to prove that any of their theories and treatment do what it is suppose to do. Some researchers have found that when a member of the APA violates a Code of Ethic, like informing a patient that the treatment they are providing patients is under study or in fact does not even make statements as to it research findings. Most professional organizations are doing no more that a slap in the hand for their violations. I get amazed at what professionals can get Continuing Education Credits (how about for reading "Chicken Soup for the Soul"). When you read a book, and you only notice that they are just quoting each other, and they make no research

It is disturbing when professionals cannot read research papers, and very few of them know enough about statistics to know whether the research they are reading has validity or reliability. Even professionals are scare that they in fact are going to have to start proving that what they do does what it promises. The fact is that 12 Step as a Treatment protocol does not work as a treatment program, 5% is not a result, is a coincident when professionals can not predict which of their patients are
going to obtain the results that they treatment promises. We should not
accept ever again to be blamed for the results when we have no control
over the protocols. The responsibility for the general outcome is the professionals not the patients. This is the only treatment I know that are
blamed the patients for the poor and pitiful outcomes.

We as patients do not have the luxury to wait and see when the professionals make up their mind about what is in the patient’s best interest. Not while they are making high salaries and most of us are getting arrested for possession and making our life miserable because the fact is that Drug Treatment are failing schools. If we do not know how to stop using, the professionals are surely not teaching us how to stop.

I prefer that you do not believe me, but rather to begging having a healthy
skeptical look at treatment. For the most part Suboxone and Methadone have a lot more "recovery' or "rehabilitation" than the abstinence based treatment. What I mean is that we patients for the most part if you
have a good doctor who has been following the minimum standards provided by SAMHSA in their publications you are in good shape. Most of us who were on methadone at one time, remember the abuses that we had to take from some treatment center who ignored TIPs #1 The State Methadone Treatment Guidelines"..... At least the comment of the administration of the Miami Dade County Treatment Center came with the unwise comments that TIP #1 was "only guidelines". He had no answer when I asked him whether he thought that the arbitrary and capricious policies and rules, we patients were under where a lot better than TIPs #1??? ... It was probably little to do with my actions, but less than a year later. It was easier to close the case and past the buck, than to study. They decided to close the MMT they were running and gave it to Dr. Ruiz (a little better, but not by much) Comprehensive Psychiatric Center. The service where better, but the cost went up substantially. He gained over 600 patients over night without having to do much work of outreach. Dr. Ruiz received, I heard, a million dollars (that might not be accurate) a year just to take the public service patients.... But while I was in Miami Dade County's MMT I have never seen such poor treatment of patients ever in my history of being in the health related profession. I do not know of any attorneys what would want to take a Junky for a client, but if you know one. I can prove mal practice, just by the fact that they were ignoring the State Methadone Treatment Guidelines, which had been available for about 10 years plus before the MMT closed. Even the current abstinence based treatment they provide is yelling to be suit for mal practice. I believe SAMHSA and CSAT pays for
most of the funding, they ignore their guidelines and in fact are not proving treatment at all. The 12 Step in spite of what we have accepted
at face value, was not ever designed as a treatment protocol, but as a

We have a good thing with most Suboxen doctors, my a Dr. Blumenthal was a real total prick, that probably just took the course. When I took him the TIP #40, he asked me why I did not think he has read them. I thought to myself "because you act like you have", but I did not want him to be a worse prick so I shroug my shoulders.

Treatment needs to become a lot cheaper, where the patient on the street find it cheaper than the dope on the street. Not all states Florida is one that is not medicaid and medicare do not buy the Buprenorphine for the patients. Floridians need to do something about it, I have had insurance but I could no longer afford it on unemployment. When I read that 8 mgs 3 times a day of Suboxone for 30 days cost $500 to $600, and genetics are not that much better at $2.50 per 8 mgs @ $250 per month that is quite a bit of money from a street junki who want to get on with their lives.

I think we are loosing, if we ever had a partnership with our counselors who are more consern about the institutions policies that they care about ethics. When institution write a policy, their conciderations is their convinience, not the patients needs.

Junkies are not a disability or impairment where you will find most advocates and flag waivers. So unfortunatly we have to do it ourselves
until the rest of the population start treating us like normal every day citizens with the same legal and code of ethics rights.

I think that we are in a Mental Health/Substance Abuse treatment crisis. I find less and less concern about their Code of Ethics (they probably have not read it since they left college), test it out, be subled do not ask in a threatening fashion, but ask none agressively when was the last time
your counselor read their professional Code of Ethics? ask like if you are going to ask them a vague question something that came up some where else a long time ago. If they take a while to think before they answer, we are in trouble. And they might be good people, and well meaning too. They are not usualy people out to get us (some maybe), but I think it is a point of concern for us patients, because ethics does have a lot of inplication about treatment and how competent the practioner maybe.

It is my impression that some stigma is perpetuated by professionals specially those who believe in the 12 Step, who keeps making statements that all Substance Abuse patients have underlain disturvances. Yet their is no research that proves that to be so. We have just taken Bill Wilson statement. Imagen a stockbroker and a proctologist making theories about alcoholism and drug abuse that have never been proven to be true. They have just repeated it so frequently and other professionals have continuo to accepted at face value, that "we have come to believe" (without prove) that it is true.

I have become a healthy skeptical when it comes to my treatment, I hope that you are reasonable and rational enough that you concider looking and expanding on our concerns. I know that we can become a lot more effective in the treatment that is being provide to us, that the dominance
that continue to exist and continues to be perpetuated upon us. If you have been in an abstinence base treatment, specially those paid with public money, and are 12 Step Oriented (with 91% are, not because they are effective, but because the staff are perpetuating their own spicies), you will find that for the most part they are runned like a Minimum Security Prison, patints are expected to snitch on each other in the name
of "treatment and recovery" (forget about the violation of your Privacy and Confidenciality), patient explotation is not uncomen, check the professional Code of Ethics. I find that their practice and sometime even their policies have a political repressive under tone, punitively oriented.
For the most part just because you have signed for Treatment Consent, it does not mean that a patient most accept all treatment that they may coerse or compel you to take, treatment programs are specially extremely poor at doing "Behavioral Contracts" which are suppose to be voluntarly signed as a contract is an agreement between two people to resulve a
therapeutic issue, it is not intended to be with a mission of punishment.
For the most part if you read the guidelines for a Behavioural Contract and you have ever been under contract you will notice the violation of treatment standards.

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